(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 40 : Hope NWA Has Enough Booze* to Get the Jurors Through the Weekend

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

#2. I now wonder if Josh does do drugs or drinks.  Remember that mugshot where he looked wasted?  We all speculated what he was on. Crying was a possibility but I don’t think so, after crying face looks much different than stoned off your ass face.  The dark web is great for pills, pills are more discreet than pot or booze.  Pills are everywhere unfortunately.   Kids get them using Snapchat these days.  I have an ex that gave me a good education on sneaky drug use.  I can totally see Josh doing that.  The thrill of acquiring and feeling groovy while no one is the wiser is a part of it.  I think Josh could very well go down that route and/or #1 . 

He has had that puffy look of someone who drinks to much for a few years now.  That's not about his weight, it's a distinct kind of swelling typical of alcoholics and such.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

26 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I mean, her family signed off on her marriage at age 17. IIRC, they were moving out of state. She was the youngest of six or seven - all much older than her. They might have been estranged b/c of their cult beliefs but I think they never really saw or engaged much with her extended family. She mentioned her dad a couple of times but crickets about her mom. On an early special, they went to a family reunion for her dad’s birthday, and it was super weird, almost like the kids had never met any of them. I think a relative or two popped up later on but very much felt estranged or distanced.
 

This could have been because her mom died when she was pretty young and everyone was so much older, but I always thought that was rather telling - probably because of my own mom issues. I believe her home life was probably not healthy. Jim Bob grew up with instability - periodic poverty at least - and as a child of alcoholic with anger problems. I’ve always thought Michelle came from at the very least neglect. In general, I think first generation cult converts usually are sucked in b/c of some kind of chaos.

Michelle's mother died when Michelle was an adult. Also by the time her mother died, Michelle was just starting to pop out the babies. She probably was too busy with her kids to really spend much time with her family.

JB's representation of his own family has been called into question. It's unclear how much of what he says is true. Grandma Mary and Deanna never confirmed what he said about his own father. Then again Deanna and particularly Mary have enabled JB and fam.

Interestingly, the "mold house" now owned by Ben and Jessa was originally purchased by Michelle's parents. At some point Michelle's father sold it to Grandma Mary. Then Mary owned it and Josh and Anna lived there in the early days of their marriage. Finally Mary sold it to Ben and Jessa. It shows that the Ruarks wanted live near Michelle.

I know people in real life who have always reminded me of the Duggars in many ways. These people are always looking for friends and family who will be in awe of them and only want to be praised and adored. They shut out anybody who doesn't basically bow down to them and act like they're so special. JB and Michelle seem to be the same way. JB's father was rumored to be critical of their lifestyle and that may have a lot to do with how JB think of him. If Michelle's siblings were critical of Michelle, I imagine she would have shut them out. Also one of her sisters is a lesbian, while Michelle hates LGBTQ people.

[Beermeet]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

He has had that puffy look of someone who drinks to much for a few years now.  That's not about his weight, it's a distinct kind of swelling typical of alcoholics and such.

I'm very familiar,  sadly.  You're right.  I guess I just wonder about the smell.  Drunks smell like booze.  It's in their pores the next day even.  But, who knows. Mouthwash and cologne exists so,  I'm sure he makes sure to smell right.  They usually do, at first. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Beermeet

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, Lovebug said:

This right here is the million dollar question. 

It was interesting to read comments on Bobye’s FB page when she was replying to people calling her out for not reporting until now. She kept saying they were misinformed. Very curious…

I’m gonna bet they were told a watered down version of the Megyn Kelley interview and that the chat with the cop friend was official reporting. They all probably thought that was impressive given that cults usually handle things in house. Certainly the abuse was minimized, and I imagine they were told Josh was “better” later on. 

Also, one of the lesser horrific things among such huge horrors of this cult-church is he fact that we breeze by that there were weekly updates about Josh-the-teen’s progress at camp/prison to the entire church. Whatever story they spun, the public shaming is insane - can you imagine being a teen/child in that culture knowing that could happen to you if you stepped out of line? You bet Michelle was crying. Maybe she felt sad for Josh, but she was also being publicly shamed for failing at IBLP. No wonder he can smile and shake hands in the courtroom. As a young teen he was publicly shamed, everyone knew about it, and then was required to come back to that community and play his role…and then for TV.

A long time ago I spoke with the head of a conservative nondenominational Bible school. Some ATI students had come through, and he lit up with anger and  without qualification that he never ever saw anything good come out of ATI/IBLP (not meaning the students but any good come from the teaching). I’ve often thought of that over the years - there may be overlap with fundamentalism or other conservative Christian sects, but all of the teaching is straight up out of Gothard’s disturbed head.

 

[onekidanddone]

16 minutes ago, Sabine said:

i guess these guys are out of fucks to give. 

Yikes.  Hold it. Is this the Hannah who married a Keller the other week? If so it feels like she is aiming here barbs at her own parents as well as JBolb

[EmCatlyn]

14 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

#2. I now wonder if Josh does do drugs or drinks.  Remember that mugshot where he looked wasted?  We all speculated what he was on. Crying was a possibility but I don’t think so, after crying face looks much different than stoned off your ass face.  The dark web is great for pills, pills are more discreet than pot or booze.  Pills are everywhere unfortunately.   Kids get them using Snapchat these days.  I have an ex that gave me a good education on sneaky drug use.  I can totally see Josh doing that.  The thrill of acquiring and feeling groovy while no one is the wiser is a part of it.  I think Josh could very well go down that route and/or #1 . 

Yeah, I wouldn’t be sure Josh hasn’t indulged in drugs, but he almost certainly isn’t dependent on them, and if he had seemed to be on drugs they could have required him to take a urine test when arrested, I believe.  Whether that would be reported or not, I don’t know.

BTW, I am one of those that thinks Josh is less a “pedophile” than a sadist who gets his jollies out of humiliating and causing pain.  Given the circumstances in prison, I could see him quietly and sneakily participating (or at least watching) in attacks on others if he thought he could get away with it.  Basically, I think Josh will do whatever he can get away with.

[gustava]

We know that Josh molested five prepubescent girls.

We know he was caught with porn by the Holts?  Was it ever stated what type?

We know he engaged with Ashley Madison, a sex worker.

We know he was caught with CSM on his computer.

Is there  evidence that he molested prepubescent girls other than the original five?

I'm trying to piece together a timeline in my own head.

[Iburneddinner]

3 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Yikes.  Hold it. Is this the Hannah who married a Keller the other week? If so it feels like she is aiming here barbs at her own parents as well as JBolb

I think this is the Reber daughter in law, so married to their son. Still a fantastic post. Also I wonder if the Reber son feels as strongly about this and how he felt about his mom and sister having to live with that POS. I do believe though that the Rebers son is good friends with some of the Duggar boys so who knows how he feels. But applause for her opinion! Hopefully she's an outspoken young woman who's not afraid to speak her mind.

[fundiesarefascinating]

11 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

What they were doing is a time-honored way of not so much “arranging” as “promoting” marriage between the children of friends.  I had a dentist who would give parties at his house for the dental school students hoping that one of them would hit it off with his daughter.  When one of them did, he did not “arrange” a marriage but definitely facilitated it, bringing the young man into his dental practice.  I mention this to show it is not just a fundie thing, even in these days. 

We likely just have very different perspectives/life experiences but this strikes me as controlling behaviour. It is one thing to be open to/supportive of my children having crushes/romantic interest in someone else. But doing work behind the scenes with the intention of them marrying someone specific that I have selected and decided is an appropriate match is controlling. It's maybe more covert but still extremely borderline. I would feel very violated if my parents had done this to me. I think it's the intention behind it that makes my stomach churn. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, I wouldn’t be sure Josh hasn’t indulged in drugs, but he almost certainly isn’t dependent on them, and if he had seemed to be on drugs they could have required him to take a urine test when arrested, I believe.  

I forgot about that.  Yes, one of the things they took into consideration when deciding whether or not to let him out on bond was that he had no history of drug/alcohol abuse.  I can't remember where I read it but that no drugs/alcohol found in his system when he was booked, but I remember being surprised since he looked wasted.

That may not have been official, could be just some random poster, so don't take my word for it.

[EmCatlyn]

46 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Yeah, I'm surprised people think Josh would have been okay with better parents. At this point, it's pretty clear he's a pedophile. 

JimBob and Michelle just did absolutely nothing to lessen the collateral damage. 

As I said above, I am not sure he is a pedophile.  He may be a generic sadistic pervert.  It is just possible that he also enjoys “snuff” films, but didn’t get caught with those.

I don’t know for sure about nature/nurture, but my impression is that, except in a few cases, it is a bit of both.  Josh might not have abused his sisters but he might have been the school bully in another scenario.  Josh might have had help and not become obsessed with transgressive sexuality and csam if his family weren’t so sex and sin obsessed.  He definitely got the message that masculine sex is power and that humiliating others is the greatest form of power.

I am just saying he might have turned out into a different sort of sociopath. 🤷‍♀️  But who knows, really. 🙄
 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, gustava said:

Is there  evidence that he molested prepubescent girls other than the original five?

No.  It is not speculating to note that for every known victim there are almost always more due to the reluctance of people to report.  There is a stat out there, I'll try to find it.

[waltraute]

25 minutes ago, ILoveJellybeans said:

I dont know if its possible to be born evil, but I think its a combination of nature and nurture.

Like just about everything else in life I believe behavior falls on a spectrum, nature on one end and nuture on the other. I think a minority are born a certain way and nothing can sway them from that path. I also think that outside influences (nuture) can kick someone onto a path that wasn't predetermined in their DNA. Most probably fall somewhere between those endpoints. To complicate things, each behavior an individual displays could fall differently on the spectrum and all our behaviors interact with each other and inform how we, as a whole person,  navigate through life. 

I think JB and Michelle set up Josh and their daughters (nuture) for the worst possible outcome in this situation and many other situations, but I hesitate to say that they made Josh a pedophile by their actions. Historically, parents,  and let's face it, usually the mothers, have been blamed for any physical, mental, or emotional presentation that the public deems unacceptable. I don't wish to be part of that, even though I will express my opinion on the many other ways I feel the Duggar parents have failed their children. 

Also, for the record, the spectrum analogy I used is a truly inadequate tool for what I was trying to explain. Behavior sets are a jumble of nature/nuture, internal chemical/external environment, etc., and can't be teased out nicely to sit on a line. It was the simplest explanation I could think of at the moment. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

13 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Yikes.  Hold it. Is this the Hannah who married a Keller the other week? If so it feels like she is aiming here barbs at her own parents as well as JBolb

No this is Hannah Bunch Reber, who married Lemuel Reber last year. She seems mighty disgusted with Josh, and maybe her in-laws too! I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of divorces in the Reber family in the future.

The Rebers aren't IBLP for life. They're college-educated people with 2 kids and  a relatively nice home. Their daughter-in-law is a college-educated woman, who works for the Arkansas governor. Lemuel and Hannah Reber-Keller are also college-educated. It feels like the Rebers recently fell into a cult after being mainstream conservative Christians.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Bluebirdbluebell

[kmachete14]

Does anyone else think the IBLP way of raising children + public shaming + "perfect family for the camera" + married and now a perfect IBLP husband may have contributed to Josh's hidden personality/life? I mean his parents basically made sure he was brutally and emotionally beat down at a foundational age, while requiring that he act the stoic in response to it. Not to mention that usually people who molest children when they are children themselves (if we are inferring his molestations started earlier than originally stated in the Megyn Kelly interview), perhaps Josh was molested by someone? The cult and religious leaders are known for molesting children . . . then we have the point that the Duggars raised their children using corporal punishment (spare the rod, spoil the child) and forced them to "keep sweet" and not display emotion. So for everyone thinking is it nature vs. nurture, if he had ANY emotional regulation, sadist proclivities, sexual deviancy . . . they FOR SURE cultivated it? Perhaps his narcissism, ability to compartmentalize his life, sneakiness, projecting pain onto others, etc. were all in response to his own trauma? 

I am NOT defending Josh, I hope he stays in prison forever. But I am trying to understand how he could end up this way, and I also heavily blame the entire cult. 

[Beermeet]

1 minute ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, I wouldn’t be sure Josh hasn’t indulged in drugs, but he almost certainly isn’t dependent on them, and if he had seemed to be on drugs they could have required him to take a urine test when arrested, I believe.  Whether that would be reported or not, I don’t know.

BTW, I am one of those that thinks Josh is less a “pedophile” than a sadist who gets his jollies out of humiliating and causing pain.  Given the circumstances in prison, I could see him quietly and sneakily participating (or at least watching) in attacks on others if he thought he could get away with it.  Basically, I think Josh will do whatever he can get away with.

I think it's both.  I read an AMA from an FBI detective who works csam and it's not always sexual.  Josh's is.  I also think he will do whatever he can.  Sick sick man. 

[onekidanddone]

Why are people thinking JB will keep taking care of the M kids once Josh goes to prison? He put Josh’s family in the warehouse to keep control of Josh. Once Josh is off his is JB really going to care about eight extra mouths to feed?

Edited December 5, 2021 by onekidanddone

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

We likely just have very different perspectives/life experiences but this strikes me as controlling behaviour. It is one thing to be open to/supportive of my children having crushes/romantic interest in someone else. But doing work behind the scenes with the intention of them marrying someone specific that I have selected and decided is an appropriate match is controlling. It's maybe more covert but still extremely borderline. I would feel very violated if my parents had done this to me. I think it's the intention behind it that makes my stomach churn. 

I'm with you, this is super controlling and gross.

I was so contrary my parent's could have brought home my perfect man and I'd have rejected him just because it was what my they wanted.  I was a difficult kid, sometimes I wonder how I someone just like me would have been handled in a fundy family.

2 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Why so many people thinking JB will keep taking care of the M kids once Josh goes to prison? He put Josh’s family in the warehouse to keep control of Josh. Once Josh is off his is JB really going to care about eight extra mouths to feed?

The brand.  The People expose showing Anna and all 7 Ms in a tent by an underpass isn't going to help anyone forget about Josh.

Unless they were going fully off media and give no fucks about losing his hardcore remaining following he wouldn't let them starve or go homeless.

[neuroticcat]

58 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

If it was Josh's upbringing,  then his brothers,  at least one or 2 others, if not all, would be this way.   I don't think pedophiles can be made or rehabilitated.  Josh would be the same but in the secular world is all.  

I've been deeply pissed off at some of the things I was held back from, never once did I want to harm a child because of it.   Josh is sick, he's wired wrong.  His circumstances gave him ample opportunity and his parents gave him the freedom to keep hurting his sisters.  He would have done it in a 20 bedroom mansion with completely different parents.   

I had a pretty lonely and crappy upbringing but I didn't cut or do drugs.   

Nature vs nurture is definitely an interesting topic.  I think pedophilia is beyond good or bad parents in most cases.   

Many pedophiles were often molested as children (no, not all, but there is an accepted statistical connection), so that is an unknown factor. Statistically, sexual abuse was likely rampant alongside the multitudinous other abuses every child in that cult experienced. As far as viewing CSAM, there is a sexually addictive brain-altering component. Whenever he started viewing at whatever level, it always gets darker and more compulsive without treatment. All of these external factors - known and unknown would have contributed to his choices to act out. 

I mean, without a control group, it’s all speculation whether Josh would have ended up in this same place without the cult, but the oppressive spiritual abuse certainly short circuited any potential help he could have received and compounded trauma.

 

[EmCatlyn]

4 minutes ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

We likely just have very different perspectives/life experiences but this strikes me as controlling behaviour. It is one thing to be open to/supportive of my children having crushes/romantic interest in someone else. But doing work behind the scenes with the intention of them marrying someone specific that I have selected and decided is an appropriate match is controlling. It's maybe more covert but still extremely borderline. I would feel very violated if my parents had done this to me. I think it's the intention behind it that makes my stomach churn. 

I am not saying it isn’t “controlling” to a degree, but it is closer to the way people got married for centuries.  An “arranged marriage” is when a particular pairing is determined on by the families or the community.  “Promoting” a marriage is when you try to make it possible for your child to meet the sort of people you would like as an in-law.  We still see this in a lot of communities when they have “socials” in the church, or parties to which only “our crowd” get invited. The origin of the “debutante ball,” the “coming out” party and the “quinceañera” parties was to introduce young women to family friends and people of the right social background for the young women to match up with the “right” spouse.

As for my dentist, I think the guy genuinely liked mentoring young dental students and he may have other goals than introducing his daughter to them and vice-versa.   I never heard that he didn’t let her date freely, he sent her away to college, etc.  I am sure, however, that he hoped that his daughter would “hit it off” with a young dentist he liked.

I am not passing judgment on anything that works for other people.  🤷‍♀️

[hoipolloi]

27 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

He should never get out.

ITA. Really hoping that he's convicted & sentenced to the maximum time. 

He obviously should have psychiatric treatment many years ago. Federal prison might be his best chance at receiving it now. Whether it will make a difference or enable him to live in society again without reoffending isn't clear.

[Queen Of Hearts]

11 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Why so many people thinking JB will keep taking care of the M kids once Josh goes to prison? He put Josh’s family in the warehouse to keep control of Josh. Once Josh is off his is JB really going to care about eight extra mouths to feed?

The only way JB has to control Anna is to support her and the kids.  The last thing he wants is for her to divorce Josh and remarry and have his grandkids under someone else's control.  Or worse, to start blabbing about life in Duggarville.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

Does anyone else think the IBLP way of raising children + public shaming + "perfect family for the camera" + married and now a perfect IBLP husband may have contributed to Josh's hidden personality/life? I mean his parents basically made sure he was brutally and emotionally beat down at a foundational age, while requiring that he act the stoic in response to it. Not to mention that usually people who molest children when they are children themselves (if we are inferring his molestations started earlier than originally stated in the Megyn Kelly interview), perhaps Josh was molested by someone? The cult and religious leaders are known for molesting children . . . then we have the point that the Duggars raised their children using corporal punishment (spare the rod, spoil the child) and forced them to "keep sweet" and not display emotion. So for everyone thinking is it nature vs. nurture, if he had ANY emotional regulation, sadist proclivities, sexual deviancy . . . they FOR SURE cultivated it? Perhaps his narcissism, ability to compartmentalize his life, sneakiness, projecting pain onto others, etc. were all in response to his own trauma? 

I am NOT defending Josh, I hope he stays in prison forever. But I am trying to understand how he could end up this way, and I also heavily blame the entire cult. 

There is a lot of overlap between the techniques of this church and those used in therapeutic boarding schools.  It's a deliberate plan to systematically break down the "self" to nothing so it can be rebuilt. This includes public shaming, loss of privileges including privacy (can't even use the toilet alone) and clothing (stripped of clothing and given a sheet.  The right to wear clothing had to be earned back.)  Public confession, shaming, humiliation isn't a bug it's the point.  Shunning where others aren't allowed to speak to or even make eye contact with the person on punishment for days at a time.  The right to communication needed to be earned.  No phones call or mail to family, in or out.  Manual labor until exhaustion.  

Honestly the secular boarding school abusers and these people were using the same playbook slightly tweaked.  

4 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

As far as viewing CSAM, there is a sexually addictive brain-altering component. Whenever he started viewing at whatever level, it always gets darker and more compulsive without treatment.

Do you have a source for this?  Do they say why those images result in that when consensual adult porn doesn't?  Or is the implication all porn results in escalation?

[Lovebug]

18 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I’m gonna bet they were told a watered down version of the Megyn Kelley interview and that the chat with the cop friend was official reporting. They all probably thought that was impressive given that cults usually handle things in house. Certainly the abuse was minimized, and I imagine they were told Josh was “better” later on. 

Also, one of the lesser horrific things among such huge horrors of this cult-church is he fact that we breeze by that there were weekly updates about Josh-the-teen’s progress at camp/prison to the entire church. Whatever story they spun, the public shaming is insane - can you imagine being a teen/child in that culture knowing that could happen to you if you stepped out of line? You bet Michelle was crying. Maybe she felt sad for Josh, but she was also being publicly shamed for failing at IBLP. No wonder he can smile and shake hands in the courtroom. As a young teen he was publicly shamed, everyone knew about it, and then was required to come back to that community and play his role…and then for TV.

A long time ago I spoke with the head of a conservative nondenominational Bible school. Some ATI students had come through, and he lit up with anger and  without qualification that he never ever saw anything good come out of ATI/IBLP (not meaning the students but any good come from the teaching). I’ve often thought of that over the years - there may be overlap with fundamentalism or other conservative Christian sects, but all of the teaching is straight up out of Gothard’s disturbed head.

 

Unfortunately they knew the actual truth, not a watered down version. In the Judge’s  responses to the motions in limine, it outlines some of Bobye’s testimony. It is horrifying and detailed, and explains what Josh admitted directly to the Holts. If you haven’t yet and are interested in seeing what I’m talking about, watch Emily D. Baker’s latest video beginning at the 46ish minute mark. BE WARNED THOUGH. It is graphic and mentions acts of molestation. Not sure if the video is allowed in, but I can link it if you need it.

From what I understand, there were countless similar meetings over many years between the Duggars and Holts, which will be testified about next week. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Lovebug said:

Unfortunately they knew the actual truth, not a watered down version. In the Judge’s  responses to the motions in limine, it outlines some of Bobye’s testimony. It is horrifying and detailed, and explains what Josh admitted directly to the Holts. If you haven’t yet and are interested in seeing what I’m talking about, watch Emily D. Baker’s latest video beginning at the 46ish minute mark. BE WARNED THOUGH. It is graphic and mentions acts of molestation. Not sure if the video is allowed in, but I can link it if you need it.

From what I understand, there were countless similar meetings over many years between the Duggars and Holts, which will be testified about next week. 

Sure, you can link it, thanks.   I saw that and agree it's a great run down, and I co-sign the warning that the specifics of the acts are disturbing.