Gwen Shamblin Lara 16: Remnant after Gwen [Gwen and other RF leaders dead in plane crash]

[AmazonGrace]

37 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

Do they even focus on the idea that the deceased are in Heaven? Does the faux-Jewish focus lead to less emphasis on the afterlife, or does their difference in belief about the Trinity enter into it in any way?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

   There was a weird devotional that described Heaven (I am assuming) as this bizarre cross between Star Wars and the Truman Show or Pleasantville. Saints from thousands of centuries (Homo sapiens emerged 300 000 years ago so this is technically possible) live on a planet, far far away, protected from all negative emotion by colossal walls and pearly gates. Why do you need walls if you're on a far away planet, and how would walls stop feelings anyhow I'm not sure. Then we have this recital about what happened to Jesus after he died: God gave him a lot of money. Nobody knows what Jesus will buy while ruling on God's right hand side but it might as well be champagne.

This is just wild conjecture and I could be wrong but I think maybe Gwen hadn't quite figured it all out yet.

[throwaway9988]

37 minutes ago, Mar said:

In the article it says that one of the victims is Joe’s wife, a “non-fiction author”. That sure is an interesting way to describe her! I guess whoever wrote the article didn’t do any research on her since (presumably) no one in Germany (except for us on FJ) has heard about her while apparently her husband was somewhat known.

Gwen always loved to complain about media bias, but "non-fiction author" is a far more generous description than she deserved.  I would have gone with "disgraced cult leader and washed-up fad diet author," but that's just me.

[VanillaBean]

Generally, when people die simultaneously,  they're consider to have predeceased each other for inheritance purposes. So possibly,  possibly, depending on the terms of the will and the legal ownership of various assets,  Joe's heirs, or people suing him/his estate,  would have access to whatever he would have inherited from Gwen, and vice versa. Obligatory note that I'm a lawyer but not in this field, and not in Tennessee, but this is what we learned at school. 

[MomJeans]

Also, I think (I do not know) that Gwen's Weigh Down was a separate entity from the church.  If so, that's a whole other set of assets to chase.  They will sue Gwen's estate too- she gave a man without a valid license a plane to fly.  

Plaintiff's attorneys don't look at potential cases and say "Oh, if it's not perfect, I won't take it."  (That's hilarious.  They would have no cases and no money.)  Forget what you've seen on TV.  The rock solid cases are settled by insurance without attorney involvement. 

Your entire job as a civil attorney is to figure out how to overcome obstacles.  You never have the perfect set of facts.  But juries feel really bad for orphans, and insurance carriers usually don't like risks.  Usually in the red states juries are more sympathetic to churches- but I question RF having a great reputation locally.  

I mean, I can't imagine a wrongful death attorney in Tennessee looking at this mess and saying "Nope, don't want it."  Several are likely trying to find family members as we speak. (Yes, that's against the rules.  No, that doesn't stop them at all.)

 

[Destiny]

5 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

   There was a weird devotional that described Heaven (I am assuming) as this bizarre cross between Star Wars and the Truman Show or Pleasantville. Saints from thousands of centuries (Homo sapiens emerged 300 000 years ago so this is technically possible) live on a planet, far far away, protected from all negative emotion by colossal walls and pearly gates. Why do you need walls if you're on a far away planet, and how would walls stop feelings anyhow I'm not sure. Then we have this recital about what happened to Jesus after he died: God gave him a lot of money. Nobody knows what Jesus will buy while ruling on God's right hand side but it might as well be champagne.

This is just wild conjecture and I could be wrong but I think maybe Gwen hadn't quite figured it all out yet.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK? I try not to judge people's religious beliefs since mine as a pagan are not mainstream, but that's just odd for a church that's claiming to be christian. Their beliefs definitely seem to be a made-up hodgepodge of various belief systems tossed in a blender. 

[JenniferJuniper]

7 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

The closest surviving kin can file the wrongful death lawsuit.  In TN, the court will appoint guardians to oversee all claims by minor children. If just one grandparent or aunt or uncle is not in the cult, they can file with the Court to get the minor's claim taken up. 

If any of the victims had a will naming an executor, the probate court will appoint that individual as executor of the estate, cult member or not.  Only the executor can bring forth a wrongful death lawsuit on behalf of the deceased.  The children will have their own separate claims for loss of financial and emotional support, although it may be harder for adult children to prevail.  In most cases it depends on the closeness and financial dependency involved in the relationship.  Estranged adult offspring may not be able to prove either. 

Aviation liability insurance is not required in the vast majority of states and there is no federal requirement such coverage be obtained.  Tarzan and Gwen may have opted to self-insure for liability given their substantial assets.   

Considering the magnitude of the destruction here, anyone involved with that plane is going to get sued.  The church, the owners of the craft, any mechanics who worked on it, even the manufacturer. This doesn't mean they will all be held responsible, but the plaintiffs can sue anyone they want, which brings in insurance companies who have the choice to defend their clients and attempt to get them dismissed, or try to settle out.  

[Destiny]

2 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

They will sue Gwen's estate too- she gave a man without a valid license a plane to fly.  

That's an interesting tactic. She bought it with him, so she knew or should have known about his qualifications to fly in it, thus leading to her estate potentially being liable.

Thank you for the info you shared.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

Usually in the red states juries are more sympathetic to churches- but I question RF having a great reputation locally.  

Great point and any atty worth their salt will make sure the jury knows about the unconventional views on the trinity and Jesus to get them to see RF not as fellow Christians, but as others.

[Destiny]

4 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Aviation liability insurance is not required in the vast majority of states and there is no federal requirement such coverage be obtained.  Tarzan and Gwen may have opted to self-insure for liability given their substantial assets.   

This is a good point too. Insurance is not required and we have no real idea if the insurance even existed. I would love the answer to that question, not that it's any of my business. I just can't see any reasonable insurance provider knowingly providing insurance to a low-time jet pilot (if indeed he was low-time, I'm not sure we know that for sure) with a new type rating and no damn medical. They may well have decided to self-insure to get around that problem. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Destiny
better words

[RFfamANON]

4 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

What are the beliefs on death? Do we have any idea if there are any ... um... unique views? 

I don’t know. They seem to gloss over it and not dwell on grief. “God’s plan is always perfect” is common in their language to deal with hard things. 

[Xan]

25 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I return, unscathed!

I was not able to find a sponsor list for the event, so I did some other digging. Gwen definitely has a history of donating money to trumpy things:

https://www.fec.gov/data/receipts/individual-contributions/?contributor_name=gwen+lara

(Interesting aside, anyone know what the Exodus Industries connection is? It's in the area, but it appears to be a remodeling business. Not sure why she would say she worked there unless she owns it.)

Thanks for going down the rabbit hole.  I looked up Exodus Industries and it appears that she does own it.  She started (or bought) it in 2003 and has changed various names over the years.  A couple of years ago she changed and made herself the registered agent and used one of her addresses.

Spoiler

Here's the web page for Exodus Industries:

Spoiler

 

[MamaJunebug]

3 hours ago, WorseThan1Thinks said:

Super interesting video on what this guy thinks happened with the plane/piloting.  He does such a good job showing mistakes/issues just from the couple minutes of ATC recordings.

A few quotes:

"This is Tarzan and Jane"

"Gwen has the money.  Gwen is the money banks on this thing.  Joe is a worn out, used up actor.  But he is a pilot."

"This guy, Joe Lara, had no business in this jet."  (in regards to the weather conditions and his experience).

(Based on Joe's communication/verbiage with the tower) "He might have an instrument rating, but he knows just barely enough to be dangerous."

"Now at this point the plane is doing about 300 knots.  The VNE (Never Exceed speed) on this thing is 261."

"He probably pulled it apart in flight.  He over sped the airplane is my first guess."  (Alluding they'll probably find plane parts from flying too fast that came off before the crash). 

"This all has to do with pilot personality."   

"Well, you're flying with Tarzan.  Yea, Tarzan.  He has plenty of money.  He can buy a $200,000 jet, put seven people in it and go make a takeoff.  He's not a professional, he's not a jet pilot.  He looked good swinging through trees from vines, but he's not a jet pilot.  And he proved that to us today." 

 

 

Ok, that was enlightening!  I may have found a new interest in air disaster forensics! 
 

Brings up a lot of what-if’s, mostly about potential damage along the flight path. What kind of debris will be found on the ground? How many people might have been injured or killed if the plane had ditched onto solid ground? 

Flight debris of large pieces has fallen on homes in the recent past but I don’t recall hearing any investigation results. I’ve watch planes go riiiiiiight over my nest for decades. This stuff is personal to me!

Back to the fatal crash on topic. Previously I had wondered if the pilot tried to avoid a crash on land. Frankly and with no snark intended, doesn’t sound like pilot skill or even knowledge was there for that.  
 

Such a shame and unnecessary waste of lives, if commercial or private commercial options were available. And you know they were. 

Absolute worst part:  Little children are still fatherless and motherless.

[Destiny]

1 minute ago, Xan said:

Thanks for going down the rabbit hole.  I looked up Exodus Industries and it appears that she does own it.  She started (or bought) it in 2003 and has changed various names over the years.  A couple of years ago she changed and made herself the registered agent and used one of her addresses.

Thank you for saving me that search. I was still trying to find more info on the group that put on the event they are headed to and hadn't looked into it. I took a cursory glance at the website but nothing more. Damn, she had some dollars, didn't she?

[MomJeans]

Given his outdated health certification, I would be shocked if they had aviation insurance.  

But again, there are so many assets to chase.  Normally in wrongful death, you need an insurance policy to get money because the persons have no other assets. 

The reason lawyers will be chasing this case is because there will be potential assets in addition to insurance (and there is likely some policies that potentially provide coverage, even without aviation insurance.  Insurance coverage litigation is a beast). 

 

[WorseThan1Thinks]

2 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Their beliefs definitely seem to be a made-up hodgepodge of various belief systems tossed in a blender. 

You just perfectly described Gwen's/RF's theology in one simple sentence.  Researchers could spend years trying to decipher Gwen's various scatterbrained 'sermons' and writings and they would conclude their years of research with the same sentence you wrote.

Then Gwen has had the audacity to call it Christian.... and that all the other Christian churches are counterfeit while RF is the "one true church".

Nope, references to Christ don't make Remnant Fellowship a Christian church with just a slight denominational difference.  (Scientology references Christ as part of its "religious heritage".  That doesn't make Scientology a Christian religion.)  Nope, any normal Christian leader around the world would call Gwen out in left field if she's trying to call her beliefs Christian.

Call them something else (maybe Gwen-stians).  And she can could believe/teach whatever she wants.  But don't then go label yourself as a Christian church. 

And outside of the theological side, there's the whole very real cult aspect based on how they operate, ruin families, etc.  But that's been discussed all before to great extent.

  

[Xan]

21 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Thank you for saving me that search. I was still trying to find more info on the group that put on the event they are headed to and hadn't looked into it. I took a cursory glance at the website but nothing more. Damn, she had some dollars, didn't she?

The best I can figure is that Christie Hutcherson of "Women Fighting for America" organized the event.  She just formed the corp for it last year in Florida and runs a business called ""Global Engine Solutions".  It's a small business with 4 employees.  That didn't make much sense so I looked up the other business with the same address and it turned out to belong to her husband, Robert Hutcherson.  He owns "Optimize Consulting" which has about $4.2 million of revenue per year.  That's where the money probably came from.  He's letting his wife front it with her group.  He also had a note about Gwen's accident on his Facebook page and a post about the rally. 

[Destiny]

1 minute ago, Xan said:

The best I can figure is that Christie Hutcherson of "Women Fighting for America" organized the event.  She just formed the corp for it last year in Florida and runs a business called ""Global Engine Solutions".  It's a small business with 4 employees.  That didn't make much sense so I looked up the other business with the same address and it turned out to belong to her husband, Robert Hutcherson.  He owns "Optimize Consulting" which has about $4.2 million of revenue per year.  That's where the money probably came from.  He's letting his wife front it with her group.  He also had a note about Gwen's accident on his Facebook page and a post about the rally. 

Yeah, I found the info on the WFFA group, but I can't figure out what they actually DO. They don't appear to be a PAC or anything or lobbying for any sort of change, or I couldn't find them on the FEC site anyway, and what kind of PAC only takes Venmo? I just can't figure out what the rally was supposed to accomplish other than being a gathering of hateful people. Nothing I could find indicated it was raising funds for anyone but this nebulous organization. So what even are they doing?

[Cam]

Speaking of weddings. While looking up info on Gwen I came across a short clip of her and Joe’s nuptials. Omg. A sixty-something year old woman dressing like a Disney Princess meets MyBig Fat American Gypsy Wedding  (TLC has so many horror shows). 

Its labelled a “covenant” wedding. Something about using the word covenant to describe Christian stuff makes me want to hyperventilate.  Can’t they just say its a friggin wedding? 

Spoiler

 

 

[MamaJunebug]

2 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

i'm talking about https://www.gwenshamblinlara.com

 

It’s updated to refer back to the RF page about the fatalities. 
 

OMG the photo of her and the six granddaughters - Elizabeth is hidden but is actually smiling and showing teeth and Michael (?) looks far from fat .... 

[hoipolloi]

34 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Saints from thousands of centuries (Homo sapiens emerged 300 000 years ago so this is technically possible) live on a planet, far far away, protected from all negative emotion by colossal walls and pearly gates.

This reminds me of what I've read about the LDS concept of the planet Kolob. Sure sounds like RF's notions about an afterlife are incoherent, to say the least. Also guessing that Gwen didn't think much beyond the money & control her "ministry" provided her in THIS life. Eschatology could come later!

Re: lawsuits. Thanks to those providing specific takes on what could happen. Clearly, whether RF is solely a for-profit business or a non-profit or a messy mix of both + personal estates, any competent attorney should be able to pierce the various veils to access the money on behalf of their clients. 

[Xan]

6 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Yeah, I found the info on the WFFA group, but I can't figure out what they actually DO. They don't appear to be a PAC or anything or lobbying for any sort of change, or I couldn't find them on the FEC site anyway, and what kind of PAC only takes Venmo? I just can't figure out what the rally was supposed to accomplish other than being a gathering of hateful people. Nothing I could find indicated it was raising funds for anyone but this nebulous organization. So what even are they doing?

My guess?  What other MAGA groups are doing -- fleecing the rubes.  I wouldn't be surprised if they put little or nothing back into lobbying or gaining political clout.  Maybe it's just about getting money while they can.

[Destiny]

17 minutes ago, Cam said:

A sixty-something year old woman dressing like a Disney Princess meets MyBig Fat American Gypsy Wedding  (TLC has so many horror shows). 

I actually really love the bodice on the dress from what we can see. The skirt is a JUST NO though, and the fit is all wrong for her. It makes her look like she has a third boob. 

I'd be curious to see what the definition of covenant is in the context of Remnant, since their religious practices seem to be outside the mainstream of "regular" Christianity. Usually "normal" fundies mean it as sacred vows before god outside the couple states that have covenant marriage (I think it means no no-fault divorce in this context).

14 minutes ago, Xan said:

My guess?  What other MAGA groups are doing -- fleecing the rubes.  I wouldn't be surprised if they put little or nothing back into lobbying or gaining political clout.  Maybe it's just about getting money while they can.

As far as I can tell, that's precisely what it is. I haven't been able to find any meaningful action that this group has taken other than the rally stuff. 

14 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

This reminds me of what I've read about the LDS concept of the planet Kolob. Sure sounds like RF's notions about an afterlife are incoherent, to say the least. Also guessing that Gwen didn't think much beyond the money & control her "ministry" provided her in THIS life. Eschatology could come later!

That's what I thought of too. So she's taken aspects of LDS, Mainstream Christianity, Judaism and who knows what else to make her own religion? 

I here I thought I was weird for making up my own religion where my main guiding principle is the veneration of cats and being a decent human being. (no, I'm not accepting new members.)

Edited May 31, 2021 by Destiny

[SoSoNosy]

My daughter was into Weigh Down back when it first got started; she pulled out quick when things started going weird.  She said Gwen told people they were going to Hell for being overweight.

[Pandora Spocks]

5 minutes ago, Destiny said:

It makes her look like she has a third boob. 

Pretty sure she was marrying it in this picture.

I wish that media would describe her as something other than “diet-guru”. It just doesn’t paint an accurate picture. Perhaps if she was referred to as a “diet guru and religious leader”, average folks might be curious to know more about which religion, and that would shine a little light into the catacombs that are RF. To dream!

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, thoughtful said:

want to know what the RF take on the afterlife is, and whether people will feel permitted to mourn, from any of the RF experts here.

Maybe it's because I've heard so much focus on the afterlife, and nearly-instant insistence on being joyful that the deceased is now sitting in Jesus' lap, while listening to IFB sermons. 

I’m also waiting impatiently for this mourning info. 
 

And if I may say one word on behalf of Jesus: As I understand it, Gwen essentially relegated Him to not-god status. Nice Guy, and all, but her God is the God of Abraham.  Thus also the Hebraic-Judaic* worship & festival focus. 

*TM Cliff Clavin