Gwen Shamblin Lara 16: Remnant after Gwen [Gwen and other RF leaders dead in plane crash]

[nokidsmom]

8 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

Sadly, Joe's child may have the hardest obstacles legally. In wrongful death, typically the survivor is in the shoes of the deceased. In many states his survivor's recovery would reduced by his proportion of negligence (I'm not being specific to TN, it could be different there).  Of course, an argument will be that Gwen is responsible for giving him a plane he couldn't fly, and suing the plane manufacturer as well. I hope she gets money.  I have a bad feeling that Joe had very few assets in his name that would pass through a will or intestacy. 

Honestly, one of the first things I thought of when I heard of the plane crash was Joe's daughter.   Not that it would be any less devastating to Gwen's surviving adult children, but she has to cope with losing a parent at such a young age,  even if he got caught up with a cult.   I know this sounds terrible, and I don't know how much exposure she has had to RF, but this means that will end and be a good thing.  This is assuming, of course, that her mother will have sole physical and legal custody and probably wasn't keen on her daughter being around RF but had no choice because of legal agreements around visitation.

As far as money, I hope she gets something but unfortunately, I fear it that her father didn't have much.

[AmazonGrace]

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

 

That's what I thought of too. So she's taken aspects of LDS, Mainstream Christianity, Judaism and who knows what else to make her own religion? 

 

Lots of prosperity gospel and a biblical twist to her eating disorder behaviors. 

[JenniferJuniper]

33 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

Sadly, Joe's child may have the hardest obstacles legally. In wrongful death, typically the survivor is in the shoes of the deceased. In many states his survivor's recovery would reduced by his proportion of negligence (I'm not being specific to TN, it could be different there).  Of course, an argument will be that Gwen is responsible for giving him a plane he couldn't fly, and suing the plane manufacturer as well.

It's true that she wouldn't be successful suing her father's estate if she is the estate. Even if another person is the estate rep she'd likely not be successful with a claim for the loss of her father as consortium claims are usually derivative, meaning they originate from the original suit. 

Of course, this assumes it can be definitively shown that Joe was the pilot. And she can sue other parties, claiming they caused the plane to go down. (faulty mechanical work, a defect in the plane itself).  But I agree; she has more challenges than other family members if her father was the pilot and it's established the plane went down due to pilot error.   

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, RFsurvivor said:

Have you seen the engagement video?

That engagement video is something else. Gwen did a terrible job pretending to be surprised. 
 

The video of Gwen being confronted with her own words revealed a lot about how she operated. She was good at moving the goal posts and pivoting. I keep thinking back to when some of her followers came here and were completely incapable of having any sort of a discussion on their beliefs. It is like they all stay in this RF bubble and have zero clue how to function in society. I would imagine that interview was one of the few times in recent years Gwen had been challenged. 
 

The chance of it imploding will be if there is a power struggle and it splits. There is a lot of money at play. It will be interesting to see who ends up at the top. 

[Cam]

1 hour ago, RFsurvivor said:

Have you seen the engagement video?

I have not.

It’s so creepy to me, this woman and her cult and the people who believe her or believe in her. She just makes shit up and voilà, she has believers. It’s like those psychics on talk shows: “Someone in your life with the initial D?.....” “Desireah! My niece who died!” “She wants you to know she’s okay and she watches over you.”  Audience member tears up.

I guess if you tell some people what they want to hear, they consider you to be something of a prophet. Yeah, you gonna be a profit alright. Pass de collection plate.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Cam

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, JenniferJuniper said:

It's true that she wouldn't be successful suing her father's estate if she is the estate. Even if another person is the estate rep she'd likely not be successful with a claim for the loss of her father as consortium claims are usually derivative, meaning they originate from the original suit. 

Of course, this assumes it can be definitively shown that Joe was the pilot. And she can sue other parties, claiming they caused the plane to go down. (faulty mechanical work, a defect in the plane itself).  But I agree; she has more challenges than other family members if her father was the pilot and it's established the plane went down due to pilot error.   

Not trying to get too deep into the weeds, but hypothetically if Joe was the pilot but it was Gwen's plane under one of her businesses they could be liable for not verifying that he was legal to fly.  If she owned it as an individual I don't know how much liability she would have for not verifying license.

 

[Destiny]

37 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Not trying to get too deep into the weeds, but hypothetically if Joe was the pilot but it was Gwen's plane under one of her businesses they could be liable for not verifying that he was legal to fly.  If she owned it as an individual I don't know how much liability she would have for not verifying license.

I'm pretty sure they owned it together under an LP:

https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N66BK

I have no idea what that means for any potential lawsuits, nor have I looked up info on the partnership. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Destiny
right words

[MomJeans]

34 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

None of this makes sense to me.

If Elizabeth is in control of the estate, and the grandparents are suing the estate, it sounds like they're taking money from their grandchildren's mother and therefore their grandchildren.

It also sounds like the grandparents/other relatives would have to prove that Elizabeth wasn't going to use that money for the children's continuing care. 

Also do we even know if Brandon has relatives who could sue?

No, there is a confusion here.

The grandparents would not be suing the estate in their name.  They would be petitioning the court on behalf of the minor grandchildren.  The grandchildren's claim is in the shoes of their father- his claim, and if successful, which is then determined as the loss of his financial support, guidance and love.  Any money would be put a controlled trust or structured settlement to only benefit the grandchildren.  The grandparents would get nothing. And in fact, since TN appoints a guardian for minors, the grandparents would possibly not be directing the litigation after the appointment.  It's an avenue to get the appointment, though. 

They wouldn't have to prove or disprove what Elizabeth would use the money for.  It doesn't matter.  

Since Elizabeth has a financial interest, potentially, in defeating all wrongful death lawsuits from the plane crash, she has a conflict of interest.  Conflicts of interest are not intentional. and its not about actual wrongdoing.  It's to prevent the temptation for wrongdoing, and the appearance of wrongdoing.  (To be frank, the children's mom's financial situation doesn't negate their legal rights. You need not be destitute to sue.)

In the alternative, no one petitions the court for the Brandon's kids rights.  Everyone else is probably going to sue (there are three minor orphaned children at least, maybe 4 or 5).  If the others win or settle, and collect, there could be no money left when Brandon's kids are adults and can sue for themselves. That's the risk. 

(Of course, similar to Joe's descendent, if Brandon was piloting or co-piloting the plane, it's possible his kids wouldn't get much regardless, but as I've said in earlier posts, plaintiffs attorneys work with obstacles.)

It's not about taking money away from Elizabeth.  (<---Actually right there is why she has a massive conflict of interest! Because it appears on the surface that's what this is.) Conflicts of interest isn't that uncommon in lawsuits involving families.  I know that's crass, but it's just how it is. It's why I've seen situations where family members who are not the executors or parents file lawsuits on behalf of minors, to get a court appointed guardian in place.

I don't know Brandon's family.  This is all hypothetical discussion.  I read here a long time ago that they weren't all in RF.  Also, if insurance gets involved, they may ask the court to appoint a guardian for the Hannah's children's rights anyway (I wouldn't depend on that though), because if insurance is facing a policy limits settlement, they will want to settle with all viable plaintiffs at once. 

[JenniferJuniper]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Not trying to get too deep into the weeds, but hypothetically if Joe was the pilot but it was Gwen's plane under one of her businesses they could be liable for not verifying that he was legal to fly.  If she owned it as an individual I don't know how much liability she would have for not verifying license.

 

She could sue anyone for any reason.  I'm just not sure how much success she'd have blaming Gwen or Gwen's business for failing to ensure her father had a license he surely knew he needed.  Arguably he had the greater responsibility here.  Again, it's a little different for her.  I can see the other parties making that argument as part of their overall claim.

3 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

No, there is a confusion here.

The grandparents would not be suing the estate in their name.  They would be petitioning the court on behalf of the minor grandchildren.  The grandchildren's claim is in the shoes of their father- his claim, and if successful, which is then determined as the loss of his financial support, guidance and love.  Any money would be put a controlled trust or structured settlement to only benefit the grandchildren.  The grandparents would get nothing. And in fact, since TN appoints a guardian for minors, the grandparents would possibly not be directing the litigation after the appointment.  It's an avenue to get the appointment, though. 

They wouldn't have to prove or disprove what Elizabeth would use the money for.  It doesn't matter.  

I'm not following. What standing would the grandparents have to override Elizabeth here?  Their mother will presumably be both the estate rep and represent her children relative to any potential consortium claims. 

[WeirdHarold]

9 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I'm pretty sure they owned it together under an LLC:

https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N66BK

I have no idea what that means for any potential lawsuits, nor have I looked up info on the corporation. 

I think it was a Limited Partnership (LP) rather than a Limited Liability Corp (LLC).

[Destiny]

1 minute ago, WeirdHarold said:

I think it was a Limited Partnership (LP) rather than a Limited Liability Corp (LLC).

It was. I corrected my original post but too late to keep from being quoted I guess. WHOOPSIE.

[throwaway9988]

Gwen's strong personality was definitely critical for building the cult, but she built a cult with so many levels of emotional/spiritual imprisonment and mind control that I think things can survive just fine without her.  For instance, the leaders don't even have to control the members constantly, the Remnant members will literally police their own thoughts and stop themselves from thinking anything critical of Gwen/leaders/Remnant because Gwen has taught them that entertaining bad thoughts = allowing a demon to work through you = going to Hell.  And that's just one of the layers of control they have over their members. 

I agree if some sort of schism happens between two different leaders, that is the best chance of it all falling apart.  But even that schism is less likely to happen because the leaders themselves are used to being "under authority" and deferring to certain other leaders who were viewed as closer to Gwen/more experienced/more holy.  Hypothetically, if Gwen had ever told other leaders that God told her that Elizabeth or any other certain person should be next in line, then those leaders would feel like they were disobeying God and going to Hell if they tried to succeed Gwen themselves instead of deferring to Elizabeth. 

Of course, this is all assuming that all of the leaders buy into the Remnant teachings themselves and not a single one is faking it until they make it, and not a single one is tempted by the thought of becoming the next Grifter-in-Chief... ?

[Destiny]

12 minutes ago, throwaway9988 said:

Of course, this is all assuming that all of the leaders buy into the Remnant teachings themselves and not a single one is faking it until they make it, and not a single one is tempted by the thought of becoming the next Grifter-in-Chief... ?

And this is what makes me think that it's likely to all fall apart. We know in authoritarian regimes, the upper or ruling class often doesn't follow the same rules or honestly even have the same beliefs that they publicly espouse or push on to people. I think with some riches and some power on the table, and arguments about the custody of said riches, it's possible that the whole mess will collapse under the weight of the infighting and jockeying for position and the riches. 

Or maybe I'm being a ridiculous Pollyanna. That could also be true.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Destiny

[sixcatatty]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Great point and any atty worth their salt will make sure the jury knows about the unconventional views on the trinity and Jesus to get them to see RF not as fellow Christians, but as others.

May have trouble with relevance there. I'm not saying the lawyers won't try it. I'm just saying it's an objection I would make.

I do criminal defense appeals and am not licensed  in Tennessee. Relevance of the evidence, however, is a foundational requirement everywhere.

[MomJeans]

18 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

She could sue anyone for any reason.  I'm just not sure how much success she'd have blaming Gwen or Gwen's business for failing to ensure her father had a license he surely knew he needed.  Arguably he had the greater responsibility here.  Again, it's a little different for her.  I can see the other parties making that argument as part of their overall claim.

I'm not following. What standing would the grandparents have to override Elizabeth here?  Their mother will presumably be both the estate rep and represent her children relative to any potential consortium claims. 

All I can say is that I've seen grandparents petition the court for minor's rights in place of the surviving parent, vis a vis, a conflict of interest and the court's duty to the minor's best interest.  Again, the grandparents wouldn't be suing on their own behalf, they would be enforcing the grandchildren's legal rights. A court appointed guardian would then be appointed.

If Elizabeth is in church leadership, and the Hannah children's legal rights would be best served by suing the church, I don't see how there isn't a conflict.  And if Elizabeth is a beneficiary of her mother's estate, and the Hannah children's legal rights would be best served by suing that estate, I don't see how there isn't a conflict.  I guess others may not see that the same way as I do.  

[throwaway9988]

Well with the exception of the Martins/Michael/Elizabeth who were there on day 1 (and possibly the Langsdons, not sure), I think many of the leaders rose to that position by being exemplary members for a long time.  Remnant has some extreme emotional/behavioral/time commitments that it expects from members so it isn't easy to fake it.  I couldn't fake it and I wasn't even trying to be a leader, I just wanted to fly under the radar and survive without my parents cutting off my schooling or throwing me out onto the streets. But I'm the worst actor in the world, I definitely think it's possible for the right person to fake it. The Days became leaders in Remnant after I quit, and apparently he is a CEO of a company that is just one giant pyramid scheme/MLM, so grifters definitely can definitely pass Gwen's muster.  And let's not forget how Tarzan wormed his way in ?

Edited May 31, 2021 by throwaway9988

[FrumperedCat]

Here's hoping Smuggar doesn't attempt to break free while this is all going on. I doubt even vintage wine and top notch chocolate would revive the mods. Thanks to them all in this busy month! ?

[fundiewatch]

Has anyone seen The Leftovers? The Guilty Remnant is a cult that forms after a ton of people rapture. They dress all in white and chain smoke, and don’t talk. I’m a novice re: Gwen (ED survivor, her face is triggering) but Remnant Fellowship seems as insane as The Guilty Remnant. 

[Destiny]

1 minute ago, FrumperedCat said:

Here's hoping Smuggar doesn't attempt to break free while this is all going on. I doubt even vintage wine and top notch chocolate would revive the mods. Thanks to them all in this busy month! ?

NO NO NO NO NO DON'T EVEN THINK THAT THE UNIVERSE IS LISTENING!

Also, I haven't had the time to further my plans for a major server upgrade, and I've got some major stuff coming up that mean I won't have the time for at least a month. NO JOSH NO.

1 minute ago, fundiewatch said:

Has anyone seen The Leftovers? The Guilty Remnant is a cult that forms after a ton of people rapture. They dress all in white and chain smoke, and don’t talk. I’m a novice re: Gwen (ED survivor, her face is triggering) but Remnant Fellowship seems as insane as The Guilty Remnant. 

I think of that show every time I see the Gwen threads too. I think the sanity of belief systems is about the sane for both parties. 

[Lady Grass Lake]

This whole incident reminds me a 2020 - 10 Episode of a FOX series called Filthy Rich.   Plane carrying male leader of a cult like mega church is on a plane with other people that crashed in a swamp somewhere down south.  His widow is a character similar to Gwen and the other bouffant haired TV evangelists of the past is left behind to lead the church.  Lots of intrigue, crazy plot twists and turns and a huge surprise in later shows where the supposedly dead church leader survived.   It delves into the finances of the church, the public figures including politicians who benefited from the profits.   The final scenes left me screaming at my TV.   I don't think there are any plans for another season there wasn't a lot left of the plot/characters to continue on with.   

I haven't seen anyone else mention this in the threads from after the crash where I came in to the discussion.  I saw the news yesterday, and thought her name sounded familiar so I searched for Gwen Shambling and here I am.    I'm normally on the Maxwell Rodrigues or sometimes Duggar threads.   

[formergothardite]

6 minutes ago, throwaway9988 said:

I definitely think it's possible for the right person to fake it.

I think it possible for someone to believe enough to fly under the radar, but also really, really like money and power. I think about the Bates who spent years getting into the inner circle of IBLP. On some level they did believe Gothard’s teachings, but when the opportunity arose to take that money and power, they did it. They had no qualms stabbing Gothard in the back and taking over. But in that case there was no heir apparent like Elizabeth and Michael to fight with so no risk of a split. 
 

So there could be a believer who has the realization that there is a huge amount of money at stake and decides they want it. 

[JenniferJuniper]

3 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

All I can say is that I've seen grandparents petition the court for minor's rights in place of the surviving parent, vis a vis, a conflict of interest and the court's duty to the minor's best interest.  Again, the grandparents wouldn't be suing on their own behalf, they would be enforcing the grandchildren's legal rights. A court appointed guardian would then be appointed.

If Elizabeth is in church leadership, and the Hannah children's legal rights would be best served by suing the church, I don't see how there isn't a conflict.  And if Elizabeth is a beneficiary of her mother's estate, and the Hannah children's legal rights would be best served by suing that estate, I don't see how there isn't a conflict.  I guess others may not see that the same way as I do.  

Elizabeth's husband and her children appear to be the victims of Joe's negligence (assuming Joe was the pilot of course and the accident was caused by pilot error).  Mechanical problems may have played a role; we don't know. But so far there is nothing to indicate the church was responsible for the accident.  If an alleged conflict arises as a result of the children's mother having a leadership role in an organization that possibly played a role in their father's death, the court would have to deal with the issue then.  But given what we know right now, I'd say it's very premature to jump to the grandparents representing them instead of their mother, and in the event there is some sort of potential conflict, the court will decide who represents the kids.  And if permissible in TN, the Hannahs may well have their own consortium claims for the loss of their son.    

[throwaway9988]

8 minutes ago, Lady Grass Lake said:

This whole incident reminds me a 2020 - 10 Episode of a FOX series called Filthy Rich.   Plane carrying male leader of a cult like mega church is on a plane with other people that crashed in a swamp somewhere down south. 

It would be crazy if Gwen's saga goes down the same path as this show.  I guess the first step would be for several illegitimate children to come out of the woodwork. This thread might be on fire for weeks to come!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

30 minutes ago, sixcatatty said:

May have trouble with relevance there. I'm not saying the lawyers won't try it. I'm just saying it's an objection I would make.

I do criminal defense appeals and am not licensed  in Tennessee. Relevance of the evidence, however, is a foundational requirement everywhere.

Someone spoke of bias toward churches in red states in verdicts.  If that's the case I'd expect the attorneys to try to disavow the jury of the notion that they are what someone with that bias would consider typical Christian.

It wouldn't be relevant to a unbiased jury, but one that would presuppose innocence based on it being a church should know they are as "Christian" as Catholics, Mormons, Scientology, etc.  I'd think they'd find a way to flip the bias in their favor.

20 minutes ago, Lady Grass Lake said:

I'm normally on the Maxwell Rodrigues or sometimes Duggar threads.   

As a fellow Maxwellite let me warn you Gwen's teachings make every day Maxwell fare pure foodie indulgence.  I mean they get 2 animals crackers on their birthday...you won't find that kind of gluttony in RF.

[hoipolloi]

10 minutes ago, throwaway9988 said:

I guess the first step would be for several illegitimate children to come out of the woodwork. This thread might be on fire for weeks to come!

Even if there aren't illegitimate children waiting offstage, it's highly likely that a LOT of ugly, messy stuff is going to boil up to the surface, especially if there are lawsuits over estates & liabilities.

Re: the future of RF. Perhaps I'm also naive & optimistic but I don't see the cult lasting for very long -- maybe 2-3 years at most, probably less. Seems to me that Michael & Elizabeth can't hold a candle to their late mother when it comes to the ruthlessness needed to hold on to the money & the power.