[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 32: So There Was this Cat Who Knew A Squirrel Who Knows Anna...

[Alisamer]

The cat we had when I was in high school was beautiful, solid white, with one blue and one yellow eye. Her name was Circe. She loved powdered sugar covered donuts. They used to come in a bag with a cellophane window and she'd tear out the window to get them, and since she was solid white you couldn't really see the evidence on her. She also liked biscuits - my dad would make himself a couple biscuits each morning, and sometimes leave one for dinner. He'd have to keep any leftovers in the microwave so she couldn't get to them. Cats are so funny!

I don't currently have a cat, but I think a cat has chosen me. We have some neighborhood cats and one of them used to be very skittish, but I gave him snacks a couple times and now every time I come home from work he sits on the back step and YELLS until I give him something to eat. He rubs on my legs and allows pets, though, which is nice. 

[libgirl2]

Every so often, we will order in Chinese food, set everything up at the table, grab what you want on a plate and eat in the family room. Our late cat never bothered with the food. He wasn't that crazy for people food, besides tuna. My current cat circles the table when we eat. He will stand up and try to grab food off your plate with his paw. If he can he will jump up on the table. When we order pizza, we put it in the oven so he can't get to it, the container of wings goes in the toaster oven. 

[EmCatlyn]

16 hours ago, Marionette said:

Anna was lauded as a saint in her inner & extended social circles for staying with Josh after the first two scandals. While I really hope she wakes up and gets out, it will not surprise me if she stays. She probably sees leaving as “giving up” and as a lack of trust in God. It’s practically her God-given lot in life because she waited on “the one,” and God said it was Josh (her parents completely screwed her over when they let her marry Josh). There have been endless discussions on whether Anna is brainwashed or not, but the reality is that the cult she’s in is against her in every way. It would almost be “easier” to stay. People will continue to dote on her for her “suffering for Christ.” ?

Yes.  It is very easy, when you are outside a situation, to see its problems clearly and not “get” how anyone can stand it.   Personally, I can’t stand Josh, and I have no liking for Anna, but I can see why she hasn’t left/won’t leave.

1. She fell in love with him.  Who knows why, but she did. Even if the original love has faded, she still believes in loving him.
2. She believes marriage is for life. She will not leave him because she thinks it would be wrong. Even if she were to see Josh for what he is (and she doesn’t seem to) she would feel it her duty to stand by him.        
3. She gets validation and praise for being a loyal wife. She would get neither if she left him.  We talk about siblings who have left the cult serving as examples and/or helping her, but I bet she would get little validation or praise.
4. She can’t imagine a different life for herself.   

This last is, imho, the most important reason because it encapsulates all the others.  Most of us have things we can’t imagine doing, even though we know other people do them.  (I can’t imagine myself carrying a gun, for example.) Anna does not appear to be very bright or very imaginative.  I think she can’t seriously imagine being anything other than Josh’s wife.

The best we can hope for her,  in my opinion, is that she will get over her denial and stop making excuses (if she is) or believing his lies (if she is) and make a life that accepts that she is married to a pervert and that he belongs in jail.   Then maybe she can “stand by” her husband but also look after her kids’ interests without clouds in her eyes.

Unfortunately, she seems deep in denial and is probably just praying it will all go away.
 

 

[front hugs > duggs]

We lost our long standing battle with our two feline headships involving their affection for our kitchen counters/island. I hate it because I understand it's not the most clean and not all visitors like cats. But after years of having zero interest in human food, they discovered cheese and went rabid (who can blame them, honestly?).

At least in our new house both cats fit in our sink, so they don't have to fight each other over licking plates.

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, front hugs > duggs said:

We lost our long standing battle with our two feline headships involving their affection for our kitchen counters/island. I hate it because I understand it's not the most clean and not all visitors like cats. But after years of having zero interest in human food, they discovered cheese and went rabid (who can blame them, honestly?).

At least in our new house both cats fit in our sink, so they don't have to fight each other over licking plates.

My cat will delve into the sink to clean off utensils and dishes if I am not careful. 

[nokidsmom]

2 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I hope that's coming back to haunt JB and Michelle. They wanted their kids to be like this, and now they're faced with ever-growing families dependent on them still, while they themselves still have children at home. 

Wonder if they ever heard the saying "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"

Well, JB and J'chelle got it.  A bunch of kids, both single and married with families, completely dependent on them, whom they control financially, where they live, where they work, what they do with their time.   What they didn't bank on was their firstborn becoming a major liability not only in terms of the family's reputation and brand, but now he's a literally a financial liability because of what will most likely be massive legal costs and the threat to the TLC gravy train. 

If they encouraged their children to become independent and self supporting, even the single adults, then all they would have are the minor children still at home to worry about and support.   And perhaps be able to absorb any serious financial hits, such was what they are facing now, easier to deal with.  

 

 

[Expectopatronus]

9 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

We lost our long standing battle with our two feline headships involving their affection for our kitchen counters/island. I hate it because I understand it's not the most clean and not all visitors like cats. But after years of having zero interest in human food, they discovered cheese and went rabid (who can blame them, honestly?).

At least in our new house both cats fit in our sink, so they don't have to fight each other over licking plates.

For mine, it depends on the cheese. Boursin, cream cheese and other soft cheeses, they will steal shamelessly. Cheddar, mozzarella, stilton nope. Butter they will steal in front of me. Only one sits in the sink but both will take my daughter’s crib, change table etc and claim it as their own. One has spent the past 17 months coughing up fur balls in front of and on anything that belongs to the baby. Gotta love cattitude. 

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

You get no argument from me on that. They were also strongly Catholic especially in Rose's case. She would NEVER have gotten a divorce. 

It was also a different time. Even among Protestants or secular people, divorce was relatively infrequent, and adultery in men was looked at with some tolerance. (More in Rose’s day than in Jackie’s.)  

[pupper]

3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

My cat will delve into the sink to clean off utensils and dishes if I am not careful. 

My dog attempts to prewash the dishes in the dishwasher. He is also pretty tall and will slither his snout up onto the table while we're eating. Then he sticks out his tongue and tries sideways swipes at our plates. We know it is wrong but it just makes us laugh so much. While he's been given the occasional carrot or bit of cheese, we have never fed him from the table or let him eat off our plates.  He just seems to be eternally optimistic that today is the day we will finally allow him to join us for dinner.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

It was also a different time. Even among Protestants or secular people, divorce was relatively infrequent, and adultery in men was looked at with some tolerance. (More in Rose’s day than in Jackie’s.)  

That is true. Catholics took it to the extreme but it was the norm. There is a movie with with Julianne Moore. She if a 50s hosuewife and mother who's husband is a closet homosexual. He is found out but of course they won't divorce. It goes on from there. Been years since I saw it. 

[feministxtian]

18 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

My cat will delve into the sink to clean off utensils and dishes if I am not careful. 

That's Sadie's job. She's big enough now to stand on her hind legs and stick her face in the sink. Neither feline is terribly interested in the kitchen period...they prefer the bathroom. I have to feed them on the cat tree to keep Sadie out of their food. The dry food they just have a bowl I fill in the morning and they munch all day. Their pate is at night when Sadie is in her crate. They know it too! The minute I put Sadie in the crate they start wailing like they haven't eaten in years...

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, pupper said:

My dog attempts to prewash the dishes in the dishwasher. He is also pretty tall and will slither his snout up onto the table while we're eating. Then he sticks out his tongue and tries sideways swipes at our plates. We know it is wrong but it just makes us laugh so much. While he's been given the occasional carrot or bit of cheese, we have never fed him from the table or let him eat off our plates.  He just seems to be eternally optimistic that today is the day we will finally allow him to join us for dinner.

Same with us! My cat is also optimistic that he will get a plate of food. He did run off with my son's sandwich one day. He was alone at the table eating, cat jumped up grabbed it and ran off.  Maybe he keeps hoping it will happen again. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by libgirl2

[Anna Bolinas]

Quote

“Most women cannot afford, either materially or psychologically, to recognize that whatever burnt offerings of obedience they bring to beg protection will not appease the angry little gods around them.”

Quote

“Right-wing women have surveyed the world: they find it a dangerous place. They see that work subjects them to more danger from more men; it increases the risk of sexual exploitation. They see that creativity and originality in their kind are ridiculed; they see women thrown out of the circle of male civilization for having ideas, plans, visions, ambitions. They see that traditional marriage means selling to one man, not hundreds: the better deal. They see that the streets are cold, and that the women on them are tired, sick, and bruised. They see that the money they can earn will not make them independent of men and that they will still have to play the sex games of their kind: at home and at work too. They see no way to make their bodies authentically their own and to survive in the world of men...They know that they are valued for their sex— their sex organs and their reproductive capacity—and so they try to up their value: through cooperation, manipulation, conformity; through displays of affection or attempts at friendship; through submission and obedience; and especially through the use of euphemism—“femininity, ” “total woman, ” “good, ” “maternal instinct, ” “motherly love. ” Their desperation is quiet; they hide their bruises of body and heart; they dress carefully and have good manners; they suffer, they love God, they follow the rules. They see that intelligence displayed in a woman is a flaw, that intelligence realized in a woman is a crime. They see the world they live in and they are not wrong. They use sex and babies to stay valuable because they need a home, food, clothing. They use the traditional intelligence of the female—animal, not human: they do what they have to to survive.”

I think these quotes from Andrea Dworkin's "Right-Wing Women" do a good job of explaining how and why women make decisions that are so messed up. It's not about absolving them, but I think it's important to understand so that it can be combatted. I wish these women would wake up and realize that the short-term benefits to going along with all of this nonsense cannot compare to the long-term benefits of bucking the system. 

[AprilQuilt]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

That is true. Catholics took it to the extreme but it was the norm. There is a movie with with Julianne Moore. She if a 50s hosuewife and mother who's husband is a closet homosexual. He is found out but of course they won't divorce. It goes on from there. Been years since I saw it. 

Far From Heaven. I loved that, and yes you're right I think it does really capture the sense of the era - that of course divorce was not an option, and you can't step out of the life you occupy by dint of your race, class, sexuality etc. Todd Haynes makes great films.

[Satan'sFortress]

4 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

My two felines would throw the pâté back at you. They are strictly shredded and cuts girls.

My girl will have nothing to do with pâté and will only eat the "grilled" variety, and only the seafood flavors at that.  This week, I somehow picked up a can of chicken (God forbid) pâté (Lord save us all).  There will be Hell to pay when we have to serve that one.  I'll make Mr. Fortress feed her that night.

Oddly, one of my kids is almost that restrictive in eating, too.  I'll have to examine this deeper.

[EmCatlyn]

13 minutes ago, Satan'sFortress said:

My girl will have nothing to do with pâté and will only eat the "grilled" variety, and only the seafood flavors at that.  This week, I somehow picked up a can of chicken (God forbid) pâté (Lord save us all).  There will be Hell to pay when we have to serve that one.  I'll make Mr. Fortress feed her that night.

Oddly, one of my kids is almost that restrictive in eating, too.  I'll have to examine this deeper.

I have a cat who refuses to eat tuna or seafood whether meant for humans or for cats.  She only reluctantly eats beef flavored cat food and has no interest in most food meant for humans.  However, she will devour any chicken cat food. (Pate, chunks, with gravy, without gravy, sliced, chopped...) Her “older brother” cat will eat anything, but prefers her food to his own because he is an elderly cat with a special diet.  We have to feed her when he is not around, or he becomes very miffed.  (There is kibble that they can both eat at other times.)

[Not that josh's mom]

Our pets have us well trained dont they? Cat on my lap that I am about to apologize to because I need him to move comes to mind right away.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Anna Bolinas said:

I think these quotes from Andrea Dworkin's "Right-Wing Women" do a good job of explaining how and why women make decisions that are so messed up. It's not about absolving them, but I think it's important to understand so that it can be combatted. I wish these women would wake up and realize that the short-term benefits to going along with all of this nonsense cannot compare to the long-term benefits of bucking the system. 

I see a lot of my non-fundy self in the second quote.  It took me far too long to realize how that mindset hurt others as well as myself.

To the bolded...I have several regrets that haunt me and all of them would have been avoided had I understood earlier what you stated so well.  I also wouldn't be looking back on a life that, with the exception of my children, was nothing but wasted time.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, AprilQuilt said:

Far From Heaven. I loved that, and yes you're right I think it does really capture the sense of the era - that of course divorce was not an option, and you can't step out of the life you occupy by dint of your race, class, sexuality etc. Todd Haynes makes great films.

It is a beautiful and heartbreaking movie.

[shesinsane]

8 hours ago, 47of74 said:

No he did not visit her and her mother didn't see Rosemary for 20 years.  Joseph Sr. is deep in my dog house for all eternity for doing that to his own daughter when there was no fucking need to.   

In 1961 Joe Kennedy suffered a stroke which put him a in wheelchair and rendered him mute. He lived until 1969, but without being able to control everyone and everything around him. By all reports he was mentally sound, so he spent almost a decade watching his power and influence fade without being able to do anything to stop it. Had Joe Kennedy been his robust self when the events of Chappaquiddick took place, the rest of us might never have heard of the place.

Being completely mentally aware but unable to communicate is a horrible way to exist, and couldn't have happened to a more deserving man. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Alisamer

On one of the last "interesting" bits of the show I remember catching, Jana  had gotten the chance to hang out with Abbie and JD. They all expressed enthusiasm for that dynamic and that the twins hadn't really gotten to hang out together much before.

Planned Activity: DiY Woodworking Signs-like staining and assembly and some paint. Jana was much better than JD. He freely admitted to her skills with tools. And she mentioned off-handedly that she'd thought of selling her stuff online.

The authenticity of that series of talking heads struck me as maybe 50-60% more genuine/believable than many of them.

 

[SPHASH]

3 hours ago, shesinsane said:

In 1961 Joe Kennedy suffered a stroke which put him a in wheelchair and rendered him mute. He lived until 1969, but without being able to control everyone and everything around him. By all reports he was mentally sound, so he spent almost a decade watching his power and influence fade without being able to do anything to stop it. Had Joe Kennedy been his robust self when the events of Chappaquiddick took place, the rest of us might never have heard of the place.

Being completely mentally aware but unable to communicate is a horrible way to exist, and couldn't have happened to a more deserving man. 

Joe was Trump before there was Trump, only difference was he never filed for bankruptcy.

Thanks to Joe the Kennedy name will always have a permanent stain. Joe's kids and grandkids have their faults but unlike Joe I always thought they were sincere in trying to make the world a better place...Jack, Bobby, Ted, Joe II, Joe III in public service, Joe Jr paid the ultimate sacrifice on World War II, Eunice starting Special Olympics, her husband Sargent was first director of the Peace Corps, Jean was ambassador to Ireland and helped bring a cease fire there, Caroline was ambassador to Japan I believe, Maria Shriver is heavily involved with Alzheimers research, her brother runs Special Olympics now.

[Jackie3]

10 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yes.  It is very easy, when you are outside a situation, to see its problems clearly and not “get” how anyone can stand it.   Personally, I can’t stand Josh, and I have no liking for Anna, but I can see why she hasn’t left/won’t leave.

1. She fell in love with him.  Who knows why, but she did. Even if the original love has faded, she still believes in loving him.
2. She believes marriage is for life. She will not leave him because she thinks it would be wrong. Even if she were to see Josh for what he is (and she doesn’t seem to) she would feel it her duty to stand by him.        
3. She gets validation and praise for being a loyal wife. She would get neither if she left him.  We talk about siblings who have left the cult serving as examples and/or helping her, but I bet she would get little validation or praise.
4. She can’t imagine a different life for herself.   

 

I also think there's this: 5. She can't imagine how she could support seven children.

She was raised to be dependent (I remember Michelle giving a speech on how independent wives kill marriages). She has few marketable skills. She believes that leaving her kids during the day is incredibly damaging to them. She believes that families fall apart when the mother works. She has very young kids, who'd need daycare. She is pregnant, so feeling especially vulnerable. 

I think the idea of divorce and being on her own in incredibly scary. She probably doesn't know how to rent an apartment or fill out a job application. Even if she has some support from her brother/sister, she knows they can't support her forever.

In those rare moments when she allows herself to consider separation or divorce, I think she feels trapped. These cults DO try to trap women and make them helpless, and we are seeing the result in a very public way. I'm just glad her husband will be in jail for a while, and she can raise them without having to deal with him, or "submit" to his ideas. Maybe after a few years of running her family alone, she'll see she doesn't need him.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Jackie3

[frumperlicious]

8 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I see a lot of my non-fundy self in the second quote.  It took me far too long to realize how that mindset hurt others as well as myself.

To the bolded...I have several regrets that haunt me and all of them would have been avoided had I understood earlier what you stated so well.  I also wouldn't be looking back on a life that, with the exception of my children, was nothing but wasted time.

Right there with you. I sacrificed myself on the altar of safety and happiness for my children and it wasn’t ever real. And I don’t think you have to be very right wing to not have the affects of the patriarchy wear you down in many situations,particularly if you are surrounded by conservative ideas everywhere. 
 

I can only hope my children are more successful. 

[CyborgKin]

 

Can "Tico" be Josh's new nickname?