[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 32: So There Was this Cat Who Knew A Squirrel Who Knows Anna...

[livinginthelight]

Speaking of LA Law, I seem to remember a single episode reunion special a few years back, though I can't find anything on it. It introduced a conniving young female attorney who had a memorable closing scene with Arnie.

Am I dreaming, or did anyone else see it too?

Loved that show. Also Hill Street Blues. And The Wonder Years - Kevin and I are the same age so the show was always a trip down memory lane.

Edited May 29, 2021 by livinginthelight

[CyborgKin]

10 hours ago, VanillaBean said:

No, we cannot call Josh "Tico"! The people of Costa Rica call themselves Tico. They don't deserve to share that name with Josh Duggar.?

I apologise and thank you for informing me.

(though I didn't meant it as a serious suggestion)

[RainbowSky]

4 hours ago, Sabine said:

Most people would not have an idea of anyone lifestyle simply based on a television show. But.....and there is always abut. This was a show about a women who literally fornicated for children. Not having sex for fun, not having children for the love of it, but to assuage a meanspirited god that forces her to be nothing more then a sex toy to a man and a baby incubator. Never mind that she used her small daughters to do her work, be that running a household, be that cooking, be that raising her children, - all done by her daughters, so she could go back quickly as to please the meanspirited god and husband. Never mind the refusal to properly educate all of their kids, never mind that a little child has to function as the moral guardian for her brothers, nevermind the teenager that abuses his sisters, nevermind the total lack of freedom - spiritual, morally, mentally and physically  - these children had to live with in order to please the parents. Never mind that non of them is actually able to live on their own, nevermind the idea that a Duggar women never says no - no agency for the next generation of incubators err daughter in laws. 

I can not understand anyone who watched this show and thought wholesome, family values, and good for everyone. 

Well, fornication is not what Michelle is doing but the other stuff I get.

A lot of people just saw the giant Christian family with umpteen cute kids and they were almost always smiling so were amazed. They didn't have the other stuff quite so blatantly on display like we know it is. Little bits of "Aw isn't that quaint?" 

[Sabine]

24 minutes ago, RainbowSky said:

Well, fornication is not what Michelle is doing but the other stuff I get.

A lot of people just saw the giant Christian family with umpteen cute kids and they were almost always smiling so were amazed. They didn't have the other stuff quite so blatantly on display like we know it is. Little bits of "Aw isn't that quaint?" 

Nothing quaint about a whole bunch of girls in the same dress as mum and every girl over 6 years old with a baby on a hip., and feeding that child at night. 

I used 'fornicate' as more or less had intercourse only for making the babies needed to gain the approval of God, and her husband is/ was  just the extension of that god. Not sure what they told her many years ago when she had that miscarriage - how it was her fault, pill of the devil n such - but this women had some 15 odd redemption children, and would still have them if she only could. I don't really think she ever had sex for fun. Nothing quaint about any of that. 

[Pleiades_06]

14 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I wonder whether Michelle stops by to visit her beloved firstborn.  I would imagine it's a bit awkward, if she does.  Mother and grandmother of many probably shouldn't mention the kids.

I wonder if she looks at it as her duty to “minister” to him and help him “find God”.

22 hours ago, EvilAthiest said:

I admit that I used to think the 19KAC was wholesome background noise.  I began watching because they were on the Today show so often.  I watched probably 20 or 30 episodes, but usually it was after a long day at work, or while I dusted the living room, played with the dog, etc.  I only half-way paid attention.  I even watched the special that showed Jackson’s birth, as a rerun, years after it was first released.  I thought their lifestyle was odd, but at the time I had no idea what it was really like to be Duggar.

I watched enough to be able to pick out which ones were Jill, John-David and Josh.  But not enough to be able to name the others, except for my absolute favorites:  Jackson and Johannah.  Those two were the reason I watched.  I stopped whatever I was doing when Jackson and Johannah came on!  They were quite young back then, and I thought they were adorable.  It was so obvious how much those 2 loved each other.  They were besties.  They were usually in the “talking head” spots together.  So cute! 

And then I saw an episode where the Duggars basically told those 2 adorable children that they could not play together so much.  Jackson had to do “boy” stuff with his brothers.  And Johannah had to do “girl” stuff with her sisters.  I would guess they were about 5 and 6 years old at the time.  I was appalled.  Heartbroken.  Repulsed.  And my eyes began to open.

That was the first time I realized the Duggar lifestyle is not only odd, but evil.  And in no way wholesome.   

I live in a city in upstate New York, and did not even know what a “fundie” was.  I began looking on the internet, and found FreeJinger.  I knew about “Nike” and “defrauding”, but never knew it could apply to toddlers.  They never showed that on TV.  I had never heard of Quiverfull, SAHD’s, Gothard, or blanket-training.  I learned about those things, and other horrors, here on FreeJinger.

My point is, I was not trying to pretend 19KAC was harmless.  I honestly had no idea about what their actual lifestyle was like.  I think one of the most beneficial things about FreeJinger is that it educates the uninformed.

Absolutely. I also had no idea what these people were really about when they first aired-I had no knowledge of Gothard, quiverfull, ATI, etc.  JB and Michelle were using 19KAC specifically to evangelize to the public, but to get people onboard initially they had to sanitize it.

And I am also grateful for sites like FJ for giving me a space to debrief and unpack about the craziness.

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, RainbowSky said:

 

A lot of people just saw the giant Christian family with umpteen cute kids and they were almost always smiling so were amazed. They didn't have the other stuff quite so blatantly on display like we know it is. Little bits of "Aw isn't that quaint?" 

The issue with our society is that they were automatically labeled wholesome because they are white Christians. They were pretty blatant with the crazy from the first show. Mom and Dad always walking in front while a line of matching children follow. It was shown very young children were assigned the task of being a buddy. The narrator even listed off the long list of chores assigned to each buddy, and it was essentially parenting. It was down right disturbing to hear Michelle say she only took care of the babies until they weaned and then she passed them off to a child. The girls all had to wear long dresses and were shown constantly working while the boys were shown getting to play.  But they got a pass as wholesome background noise all because they are white Christians. 
 

No one needed to know anything about Gothard to be able to pick up that these parents were treating their children in a terrible way. I get why people just viewed them as quant and harmless, but it reveals a great deal about our society that they were viewed that way. If they weren’t white and were another religion they probably wouldn’t have gotten a pass as being wholesome. People would have noted the extreme beliefs. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by formergothardite

[Cam]

Good point formergothardite. Not only did they get a pass because they are white Christians but also because our patriarchal society is conditioned to embrace submissive female roles as the ultimate normal. Powerful men in media are all too happy to reenforce this ideology with a sanitized show portraying it as females all have natural maternal desires which start from a young age and it is the only way they feel fulfillment in their (male-dominated, male-deemed insignificant) lives.

Sabine, perhaps the word copulate is more what you mean than fornicate which means sex between unmarried people. But your post about everything that’s inherently wrong with 19KAC is excellent. 

Not sure I can explain my thinking, but on some levels, I think fundy women hide behind the instruction of  “women are to joyfully submit to the sexual desire of their husbands” as a way to deflect that they have any sexual urges “down there”. To admit to such bodily functions would be scandalous, but surely they have urges. Surely they are turned on at times, and not necessarily by their own husbands, but someone or something could give them the hots to where they want to bang the mister. They just aren’t allowed to admit it they like doing it. Instead, they giggle about being happily available to satiate their husband’s urges. 

[EvilAthiest]

11 hours ago, Sabine said:

I can not understand anyone who watched this show and thought wholesome, family values, and good for everyone. 

If I didn’t know better, I’d think that JimBob whored out his entire family in a concerted effort to purposely present a false image to naive people, casual viewers, advertising sponsors, the staff of the Today show and People magazine, and everyone else he could fool; just so that he could grift a huge house and a small fortune.  ?

[sansan]

Pondering about Anna Duggar and her staying with Josh. I was thinking what if she is staying with him right now because if he should get away with all of this ( I know, how could he?) he would not let her go easily. But move forward to the trial and he gets completely convicted and sent to prison, she makes her escape.  Maybe?

[HereComesTreble]

13 minutes ago, sansan said:

Pondering about Anna Duggar and her staying with Josh. I was thinking what if she is staying with him right now because if he should get away with all of this ( I know, how could he?) he would not let her go easily. But move forward to the trial and he gets completely convicted and sent to prison, she makes her escape.  Maybe?

Hardly anything a fundie does makes sense to me...

I suppose that (as far as fundie logic goes) Anna would stand by her husband during the trial—in the off-chance that he is innocent.  Then, after his guilty conviction, she could leave him & the fundie community wouldn’t shun her as much.

[livinginthelight]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

Not sure I can explain my thinking, but on some levels, I think fundy women hide behind the instruction of  “women are to joyfully submit to the sexual desire of their husbands” as a way to deflect that they have any sexual urges “down there”.

Good point. And I also think they hide behind the idea of "headship" as a means of avoiding taking responsibility for their own decisions.

My sister is very much in the fundy/headship camp. It's always driven me crazy when she says she needs to ask her husband for permission for what I see as the most mundane decisions. But recently we had a situation regarding our upcoming family reunion, where the decision-making clearly belonged to me, her, and our brother (who really wasn't involved). Her lack of ability to input a vote was STUNNING to me. It was impossible to have a straightforward conversation with her. When asked what she wanted, she used phrases like "If it makes you more comfortable...." and "We'll do whatever you need to do" -  phrases that felt really icky to me for many reasons. They implied that I was being demanding (I wasn't) and I also knew the decision would be relayed to the family as "Aunt Living needs us to do it this way" rather than as a joint decision from the elders in the family. It was then that I realized her part in this relationship: she gets a pass on any responsibility.

Edited May 29, 2021 by livinginthelight

[louisa05]

@livinginthelight I think many women are attracted to the submissive relationship precisely because they don’t have to worry about making decisions. I’m sure many of them have something in their life before that makes that appealing (and I’m talking about people who aren’t raised with it). A student of mine at the Christian school came from an economically struggling family that wasn’t particularly hardcore evangelical. There were three kids that they put in the Christian school because the public high school they would have attended was rough. The parents worked five jobs between them to make ends meet and pay the tuition. My student was the oldest and was basically responsible for the household and her siblings while her parents worked constantly. She was overwhelmed and exhausted most of the time. She went hardcore Fundie and married a man who she lauds on social media for handling absolutely everything for her—even making a daily schedule and planning menus. And I get the sense that after her extremely difficult teen years of being in charge of everything—even stuff like scheduling and being in the house for home repairs (she would bring her siblings to school but miss herself for things like the washer being repaired), she’s relieved to not be in charge of anything. 

[Talitha Cumi]

If Anna hasn't left by now, I'm sure she will never leave. She's too used to being a Duggar and having her finances taken care of. What's she going to do, work? Duggars don't work, they grift! How would she provide for 7 children, when she has no education and no skills? Even if her brother and sister help, it's not going to be enough. No, she's in it for life, and I think her doubling down on the support is because she knows she has no chance on her own.

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, Talitha Cumi said:

If Anna hasn't left by now, I'm sure she will never leave. She's too used to being a Duggar and having her finances taken care of. What's she going to do, work? Duggars don't work, they grift! How would she provide for 7 children, when she has no education and no skills? Even if her brother and sister help, it's not going to be enough. No, she's in it for life, and I think her doubling down on the support is because she knows she has no chance on her own.

Just as my radar really, really sucked with Josh, I remember really rooting for Anna back in the DC days. At least for the cameras, she was wearing modern cute clothes, eating in real restaurants, learned to use the public library (baby steps),  interacted with women who had educations and careers (and even an Army officer!), met young mothers who weren't planning to have eleventy billion kids, etc. I thought (hoped?) that exposure to other ways of living would give her confidence and make her want more for herself and her children.

But incessant breeding in a windowless warehouse with a really vile predator is apparently good enough for her. I have zero sympathy.

[seraaa]

1 hour ago, Talitha Cumi said:

If Anna hasn't left by now, I'm sure she will never leave. She's too used to being a Duggar and having her finances taken care of. What's she going to do, work? Duggars don't work, they grift! How would she provide for 7 children, when she has no education and no skills? Even if her brother and sister help, it's not going to be enough. No, she's in it for life, and I think her doubling down on the support is because she knows she has no chance on her own.

I worry for everyone on Team 'Josh didn't do it' aka the Denial Train when (if?) he is convicted. Because either you have to accept that he did do it, which is emotionally devasting, or you delve even further into denial, which is also not good for you or your relationships with the people around you.

(And even if she accepts that he did it, actually leaving him is another matter)

Edited May 29, 2021 by seraaa

[amaznmom2u]

On 5/24/2021 at 4:37 PM, 47of74 said:

When I get new DVD players, TVs, etc I have to baptize them by showing Manos on them.

RiffTrax got me through the stay at home part of the pandemic.

I use Wlext.net to watch films and tv not available in the US. All are subtitled in English. I am thoroughly tired of blood, gore, unoriginal plots and CGI. Give me cinematography, glorious costuming and scenery, and real dialogue with real actors. 

 

And now that I  all caught up, let me take a sec to explain what speedy trial means. Federal case law has specified that the clock starts at arrest OR at the time formal charges are filed. In this case the trial procedure started after the AUSA got the indictment and formally charged Josh with his arrest and bond hearing. The Court set his first appearance date within 60 days. That's it. That is all that is required. Setting the date for first appearance. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by amaznmom2u
Tried to find who asked the question

[JenniferJuniper]

13 minutes ago, seraaa said:

I worry for everyone on Team 'Josh didn't do it' aka the Denial Train when (if?) he is convicted. Because either you have to accept that he did do it, which is emotionally devasting, or you delve even further into denial, which is also not good for you or your relationships with the people around you.

Odds are extremely high that Josh will plead guilty to avoid having the book thrown at him.  It's one thing to fantasize that Joe Biden and the Democrats got him wrongfully convicted, but how will Anna feel when he actually goes on record admitting he viewed these atrocious things and knowing he gets a sexual kick out of seeing very small children horribly abused?  How are people even in their circle going to look at her if she stands by him then, especially considering the ages of her children? 

Rhetorical question right now of course, but I think this is something she's going to have to face in the not too distant future.  As for Team Josh, I kind of doubt there is one.  His siblings and parents know what he is, whether Jim Bob chooses to minimize the behavior in his own mind or not.  There may be friends who are on the fence for now, but I wouldn't be surprised if his only true supporter is Anna. 

[Cam]

I agree there may not be a team Josh aside from Anna. I think JB could be doing the fatherly thing only for appearances. The statement he and Michele gave after the arrest sounds like they know Josh is capable of the crime:"It is our prayer that the truth, no matter what it is, will come to light“. They did not claim Josh was innocent.

I have to think JB is sick to his stomach at the latest charges against his first born knowing they are true.

The next part of their statement leads me to believe JB and M are sick and tired Josh’s problems hijacking their lives: “(it is our prayer.....) that this will all be resolved in a timely manner.”

They want this shit to be over and done so they can get back to THEIR lives. 

Josh’s older siblings are all out there creating their own adult lives. They dont want to be associated with him. I don’t see any of them rallying around him or making him their project. The younger siblings probably barely know him. And he’s not allowed near them.

[JenniferJuniper]

23 minutes ago, Cam said:

I have to think JB is sick to his stomach at the latest charges against his first born knowing they are true.

He may be sick to his stomach, but it probably is not over the charges themselves.  It's over the prospect that the TLC ride is over and his empire is going to take a major hit.   

Josh molested JB's own daughters.  He did his best to cover it up.  Years later he made as light as he could of the abuse and forced the older two to go on national TV to say it was so mild, so innocent, that they didn't even know something had happened.  We know from Josh's friend "Justin" that this isn't true.  The girls were traumatized and frequently cried in the church circle when Josh's name was brought up.  They only received support from other girls. 

Jim Bob is a total piece of shit who does not care a bit about child victims.  Not his own daughters, and surely not the children who were assaulted for the pleasure of Josh and those like him.  

Edited May 29, 2021 by JenniferJuniper

[patsymae]

" The statement he and Michele gave after the arrest sounds like they know Josh is capable of the crime:"It is our prayer that the truth, no matter what it is, will come to light“. They did not claim Josh was innocent."

 

I agree that they know he is guilty, but I read their statement in a totally opposite way: that they are still on Team Josh (or rather, Team Jboob and Jchelle) and actually believe, or at least want to portray, that there is a "truth" that will be exhonerating.

[47of74]

The thing with Joshley reminds me so much of the local clone we had here who was sent up for CP charges as well and is doing time somewhere in Michigan now.  With our local clone his sisters are rebelling against their parents and the clone as much as possible now. 

[Tangy Bee]

Didn't someone mention Josh trying to say a shady ex employer downloaded the porn? First....why would a Duggar allow anyone with a shady background to work at any of their businesses? I know they are all supposed to be so forgiving, but still can't see them actually being that trusting. Second...is Josh stupid enough to actually use his bday as a pass code and not realize almost ALL online activities can be traced? Doesn't matter what fancy software you have. The Feds will still find it.

[Tatar-tot]

9 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

Good point. And I also think they hide behind the idea of "headship" as a means of avoiding taking responsibility for their own decisions.

My sister is very much in the fundy/headship camp. It's always driven me crazy when she says she needs to ask her husband for permission for what I see as the most mundane decisions. But recently we had a situation regarding our upcoming family reunion, where the decision-making clearly belonged to me, her, and our brother (who really wasn't involved). Her lack of ability to input a vote was STUNNING to me. It was impossible to have a straightforward conversation with her. When asked what she wanted, she used phrases like "If it makes you more comfortable...." and "We'll do whatever you need to do" -  phrases that felt really icky to me for many reasons. They implied that I was being demanding (I wasn't) and I also knew the decision would be relayed to the family as "Aunt Living needs us to do it this way" rather than as a joint decision from the elders in the family. It was then that I realized her part in this relationship: she gets a pass on any responsibility.

Next time you are with her just say:

“DEAR SISTER’s HUSBAND CAN I GET YOUR PERMISSION TO STEAL MY SISTER AWAY FOR A RUN TO STARBUCKS?”

And, then any other question that needs a response just ask her husband.  If she asks why tell her since you always defer to him I thought it would save time to ask him directly!!!

Two can play this idiotic headship game!!!

[molecule]

On 5/28/2021 at 1:16 PM, Cam said:

Yes, the elevator shaft scene was one of the most surprising and satisfying moments in TV history. Truly.

I hated Rosalind, and I jumped up off the couch and did a happy dance after the elevator scene.

[katilac]

18 hours ago, RainbowSky said:

A lot of people just saw the giant Christian family with umpteen cute kids and they were almost always smiling so were amazed.

I think the horde of constantly smiling children really did amaze a lot of people, and lured in lots of casual watchers. Most people have no idea how far ATI & company take 'keeping a cheerful countenance,' to the point of physical punishment if you don't look happy. It's certainly not something that started with ATI, though; I remember that in the book Sybil, that was required of her mom when she was growing up. I think there was a scene where she had some big upset or disappointment, and when they told her to keep a cheerful countenance about it, she started laughing hysterically. 

Not crying in public and not crying for long at home was a big thing when I was a child in the 1970s, and 'if you want  to cry, I'll give you something to cry about' was heard pretty often. It seemed so stupid to me even then, but at least we didn't have to smile 24/7 lol.