[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

Just wondering out of curiosity, if someone were to create a time machine and take Mr. and Mrs. Keller to now before Josh and Anna got married, would they still let the marriage happen? I know Anna's parents aren't exactly popular here. But, I can't help but wonder if they are wishing they could go back in time and stop the whole union from happening, even if it means seven of their grandchildren not being born. I really to wonder if Mr. and Mrs. Keller are blaming themselves for walk Anna has to go through because of their good for nothing son-in-law. Yes, they did, essentially, arrange the marriage. But, part of me really does wonder if they are wishing they could go back in time and stop the whole union from happening and let Anna marry a good Christian young man from their church or another fundie family they are friends with rather than sit at home and wonder what God's will and purpose is for their daughter and grandchildren now.

To the bolded - the only way to know if they're sorry is how they act going forward.  Not for the public and none of us will ever know, but if Anna gets a sincere apology and acknowledgement of their role in her life turning out like this....and they change going forward then they are likely sorry.

It takes a lot for people to admit they've been wrong for 40+ years and the pain their actions caused others.   I'm going to guess they're going to double down with how they were right and blame Satan.  

[EmCatlyn]

Folks, why is it so hard to believe that Anna probably believes that Josh is the victim of an accident (someone else did it) or deliberately framed (a conspiracy against the Godly Duggars)?

A substantial portion of the American population believes that Trump was re-elected but that the election was “stolen” by fraud.  There are folks who believe the Earth is flat.  There are folks who believe cats bring bad luck (and others who know cats bring good luck).  

People believe what they want to believe.  ??‍♀️

[NancyDrewFan1989]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To the bolded - the only way to know if they're sorry is how they act going forward.  Not for the public and none of us will ever know, but if Anna gets a sincere apology and acknowledgement of their role in her life turning out like this....and they change going forward then they are likely sorry.

It takes a lot for people to admit they've been wrong for 40+ years and the pain their actions caused others.   I'm going to guess they're going to double down with how they were right and blame Satan.  

I know, the Keller's are almost invisible on social media and the only time we hear about them is through one of their children or a newspaper article. They were completely silent during the Ashley Madison scandal. Honestly, I think they are the ones who need to know the extent of Josh's crime more than Anna. The only people who I believe Anna will actually listen to for divorcing Josh are her parents. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

I really don't think she understood child sexual abuse as Josh was able to use his molestation of his sisters as a story for of Christ's love and forgiveness (blech) and any talk about sex is almost never discussed. This may be the first time Anna learns the true horror of child sexual abuse and how the victims are affected.

You are infantilizing a grown woman who is familiar with both sex and children.  She knows damn well that CSA is not just wrong but horrific.  If she's as dumb as you think she is then she needs to be relieved of her responsibilities as a parent.

[sansan]

This may have been talked about but I can’t read all of the posts, so many. If any of the Duggar offspring were really serious about adopting , do you think this turn of events with Josh will affect any attempts by whoever might actually try to adopt a child? I know that none of them are guilty but I am wondering if this crap with Josh will make adoptions impossible by association.

Edited May 9, 2021 by sansan

[NancyDrewFan1989]

2 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Folks, why is it so hard to believe that Anna probably believes that Josh is the victim of an accident (someone else did it) or deliberately framed (a conspiracy against the Godly Duggars)?

A substantial portion of the American population believes that Trump was re-elected but that the election was “stolen” by fraud.  There are folks who believe the Earth is flat.  There are folks who believe cats bring bad luck (and others who know cats bring good luck).  

People believe what they want to believe.  ??‍♀️

I think because Josh was exposed years ago and she is still with him. She fell for his lame excuse of Christ's love when he told her and her family about him assaulting her sisters. She stayed with him after it became public knowledge that he cheated on her and had a pornography addiction during the Ashley Madison scandal. Yet, because he went to Christian rehab and they put safeguards in place she believed he "changed". Yes, I do believe Josh has been lying to Anna for a over a year. But, I do believe some people find it hard to believe Anna what Anna believes because of Josh's past scandals.

[neuroticcat]

31 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

 

Edit: Found the letter. https://homeschoolersanonymous.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/walleriblp.pdf

That letter though...

Not too surprised about the cloaking in Christianese and reassurance to “trust us,” but what caught my eye was the bit at the end. “Journey to the Heart will continue without Mr. Gothard’s involvement.” So he was somehow significantly-enough-to-mention involved with the program that had young teen girls leave home solo to go on brainwashing retreat supervised by slightly older teen girls? ?

 

[NancyDrewFan1989]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

You are infantilizing a grown woman who is familiar with both sex and children.  She knows damn well that CSA is not just wrong but horrific.  If she's as dumb as you think she is then she needs to be relieved of her responsibilities as a parent.

Yes, she knows it is wrong. But, this is a woman who was raised in a cult where victim blaming is known. She probably didn't (or still doesn't) understand the extent. IBLP has a booklet on how to handle sexual abuse with a page saying "Consensual Sexual Abuse". Anna was raised with these principles. Yes, it's messed up. https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

[Peaches-n-Beans]

Just now, sansan said:

This may have been talked about but I can’t read lol of the posts, so many. If any of the Duggar offspring were really serious about adopting , do you think this turn of events with Josh will affect any attempts by whoever might actually try to adopt a child? I know that none of them are guilty but I am wondering if this crap with Josh will make adoptions impossible by association.

I seriously doubt any of them would actually adopt anyway. The whole "Sins of the parents are inherited by the adoptive families" thing that Gothard preaches makes it pretty unlikely. They preach that it's a cause "near to their hearts" because it's popular for television and saying "we don't believe in adoption because of our beliefs say we inherent the sins of the birth parents" would be very controversial. 

[Jencendiary]

I don't have time to coddle and cosset a grown mother of six's ignorance about the world, or honestly care. What Anna knows is irrelevant. What she doesn't know is a self-inflicted injury. She has google, just like the rest of us.

[Peaches-n-Beans]

7 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

Yes, she knows it is wrong. But, this is a woman who was raised in a cult where victim blaming is known. She probably didn't (or still doesn't) understand the extent. IBLP has a booklet on how to handle sexual abuse with a page saying "Consensual Sexual Abuse". Anna was raised with these principles. Yes, it's messed up. https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

Honestly 

It doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter what she does or does not understand. She definitely understands that Josh was watching looking at CSA. She knows what porn is. She knows what Josh was looking at even if she doesn't know the full details. 

What she does from here on out is entirely on her. Full stop.

[AussieKrissy]

1 hour ago, Jasmar said:

At this point, it just feels like self-delusion, but I’d love to get to a place where I felt on some kind of solid ground spiritually - not evangelical Christianity, just something bigger than myself that I could kind of rest in. I haven’t posted much about my life here, but the last seven years have been (and continue to be) really tough, including things like divorce, losing my faith, disability, serious health issues with my kids, and other stuff. I really wish I could believe in something: God, the universe, a spirit realm, idk. But I just don’t.

Well a random person on the internet believes in you and will send you some love and light until you can believe in it yourself. 

[eljayem]

16 minutes ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

I seriously doubt any of them would actually adopt anyway. The whole "Sins of the parents are inherited by the adoptive families" thing that Gothard preaches makes it pretty unlikely. They preach that it's a cause "near to their hearts" because it's popular for television and saying "we don't believe in adoption because of our beliefs say we inherent the sins of the birth parents" would be very controversial. 

I didn't know about that but I remember when Jessa and Ben went to the adoption agency years ago when they just had Spurgeon for initial discussions about domestic adoption they were told the agency prefers the adoption to not take place around a pregnancy or newborn . I think they said either 12 or 18 months gap. I don't know if they said why but I assume it's so the adopted child can get as much attention as it needs and also in-case parents change their minds about their family size? Anyway whatever the reason I did think at the time well that won't work for them because they don't use birth control.

[grandmadugger]

Anna has no excuse. Basic knowledge should tell her it was really bad based solely on the officer’s testimony. When a seasoned officer says it is the worst of the worst that tells you everything. At this point if she doesn’t believe it it is because she doesn’t want to believe it. 

[Chickenbutt]

Is it possible that Anna's psyche is so brittle at the moment, that if she allows herself to believe the charges against Josh, she will literally lose her mind? That she is holding onto her sanity by a very thin thread? This thought makes me hope that Jana, or someone, is there with her. 

 

 

[OrchidBlossom]

1 hour ago, Jasmar said:

At this point, it just feels like self-delusion, but I’d love to get to a place where I felt on some kind of solid ground spiritually - not evangelical Christianity, just something bigger than myself that I could kind of rest in. I haven’t posted much about my life here, but the last seven years have been (and continue to be) really tough, including things like divorce, losing my faith, disability, serious health issues with my kids, and other stuff. I really wish I could believe in something: God, the universe, a spirit realm, idk. But I just don’t.

I certainly don't want to tell you what to do and if you're seeking spirituality, of course I encourage you to look for whatever brings you meaning. But as an atheist, I find a lot of comfort in the concept that the greater meaning of the world is for me to make it somewhat better, even if just for one person. That there is no person orchestrating the greater purpose, but that I'm creating it by the compassion and care that I put out into the world (hopefully!). So, if you aren't able to find a comfort and belief with faith, perhaps reframing the conversation about disbelief will help. Again, if you want to.

[EmCatlyn]

19 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

I think because Josh was exposed years ago and she is still with him. She fell for his lame excuse of Christ's love when he told her and her family about him assaulting her sisters. She stayed with him after it became public knowledge that he cheated on her and had a pornography addiction during the Ashley Madison scandal. Yet, because he went to Christian rehab and they put safeguards in place she believed he "changed". Yes, I do believe Josh has been lying to Anna for a over a year. But, I do believe some people find it hard to believe Anna what Anna believes because of Josh's past scandals.

Yes, but all of us know plenty of people who believe things against logic, common sense, or evidence.  Anna is just one more. ?

All the evidence we have is that Anna never wavers in her “faith” and conviction that the right thing to do is to stay.  We know she didn’t leave him last time, when she had fewer children and she had offers of help. We know she has made excuses for him and accepted responsibility for keeping him “from sinning” and probably blames herself at least in part for his failure. 

There is nothing in her prior behavior, nothing she has said or been observed doing that would encourage us to believe that she will leave, much less divorce Josh.   There is a lot in her prior behavior, etc. that makes it most likely that she will believe at least some of the lies he tells her because she needs to believe. 

The surprising thing is not that she doesn’t see through Josh and walk away.  The surprising thing would be if she did.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

34 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

Yes, she knows it is wrong. But, this is a woman who was raised in a cult where victim blaming is known. She probably didn't (or still doesn't) understand the extent. IBLP has a booklet on how to handle sexual abuse with a page saying "Consensual Sexual Abuse". Anna was raised with these principles. Yes, it's messed up. https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

I get that.  No matter what someone's upbringing at a point they are responsible for their adult choices and having functional critical thought.  

That sometime is sometime before almost 7 kids with a child sex predator.

Is the pass you're giving her lifelong?

4 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Is it possible that Anna's psyche is so brittle at the moment, that if she allows herself to believe the charges against Josh, she will literally lose her mind? That she is holding onto her sanity by a very thin thread? This thought makes me hope that Jana, or someone, is there with her. 

 

 

I said that a few pages back that if she allows herself to contemplate it she'll break.  Not forever, but it will be untenable pain for her and and she'll need someone there for the kids and ideally someone there for her because picking up those pieces won't be easy.  

Some people live their lives in denial.

[amaznmom2u]

57 minutes ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

. This may be the first time Anna learns the true horror of child sexual abuse and how the victims are affected.

Unless she googles it, or somehow someone sends her to the wiki, she won't. When visual evidence of this nature is presented, court is cleared, even in virtual hearings.  

I pray that he pleads out and does not request a jury trial.  This will be very mentally and emotionally difficult for a jury. 

[Chickenbutt]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I said that a few pages back that if she allows herself to contemplate it she'll break.  Not forever, but it will be untenable pain for her and and she'll need someone there for the kids and ideally someone there for her because picking up those pieces won't be easy.  

Some people live their lives in denial.

I'm not sure it wouldn't break her forever. If everything she has even known, learned, believed in, is proven to be false at it's core, and the man that was supposed to be her headship could betray her so completely, I can see her losing faith in everything she thought she knew. I don't see Anna as being a particular strong person, I assume she has little, if any, self esteem and now the life and all the beliefs that she's been dedicated to forever is in shambles. Her mental health has got to be at great risk. 

 

[purple_summer]

2 hours ago, Freejin said:

Second - in the 14 Children and Pregnant Again special Josh appears only briefly because it was during the time when he was in punishment/work recovery. His head is shaved. Does anyone know why that was part of the punishment?

A friend of mine had their head shaved after being caught masturbating. They were then sent to Jesus boot camp. Middle school aged. We (the group) also had a situation where a preschool aged girl had their hair cut short “like a boy” as punishment. It’s definitely intended to be “humbling” and an easy identifier for people to notice/react to. 
 

Semi-related, but it’s definitely a “thing” for people to pray that someone goes through an awful time/traumatic experience/series of terrible events so that they come running back to the church/resign to never leave (again). Think “please make sure bob never knows peace and is constantly tormented until he comes back to You.” It’s definitely possible that everyone in Anna’s inner circle is telling her this is a test of faith she needs to overcome. 

[Cactus]

Re the discussion on lapsed / cultural Catholicism and spirituality more broadly: I think it's entirely possible to be 'religious' or to be 'spiritual' without necessarily being part of, or believing in, formal religious teachings. I was raised in a secular household (but attended Catholic schools) and came to spirituality later in life, but did so in a more unstructured way. I don't attend church, I'm not part of any organised religion, I don't believe in God per se, but rather I believe in the inherent spirituality and consciousness of Nature.

I think a poster earlier in this thread remarked on feeling the sacred in the everyday, and missing that feeling since they ceased to be a practising Catholic. Leaving organised religion can feel like the structure and the sacred are bound together, and leaving one necessitates leaving the other. I see these as separate things—we can experience the wonder and glory of the cosmos without being part of a formal religion, but if that religion has shaped how you've previously known the sacred, it can be hard to imagine those feelings without that structure.

[OrchidBlossom]

I really wish everyone would stop pretending Anna doesn't have the capability to process what CSA is. She does. Sure, she has been taught it's what godless liberal democrats do to the babies they don't abort or whatever, but she knows what it is. Her father-in-law once ran for public office on a policy of murdering people who commit incest, which she has known her husband did since AT LEAST 2015. I feel pretty confident that some fire and brimstone preacher she has listened to somewhere down the line has described in unnecessary levels of detail what pedophiles (probably called democrats or nonbelievers or whatever) do to kids and how we can only stop the moral turpitude of the world through Christ. 

Anna knows what CSA is. She knows why it is wrong. She knows what it entails. Stop pretending she doesn't. It's very insulting to those who have managed to break from fundamentalism to insinuate that but for the grace of their ability to escape, they too could have been completely unaware on even a gut level why CSA is so bad and thought it was just another sin. 

[meep]

26 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I really wish everyone would stop pretending Anna doesn't have the capability to process what CSA is. She does. Sure, she has been taught it's what godless liberal democrats do to the babies they don't abort or whatever, but she knows what it is. Her father-in-law once ran for public office on a policy of murdering people who commit incest, which she has known her husband did since AT LEAST 2015. I feel pretty confident that some fire and brimstone preacher she has listened to somewhere down the line has described in unnecessary levels of detail what pedophiles (probably called democrats or nonbelievers or whatever) do to kids and how we can only stop the moral turpitude of the world through Christ. 

Anna knows what CSA is. She knows why it is wrong. She knows what it entails. Stop pretending she doesn't. It's very insulting to those who have managed to break from fundamentalism to insinuate that but for the grace of their ability to escape, they too could have been completely unaware on even a gut level why CSA is so bad and thought it was just another sin. 

It is quite common in homeschooling circles to teach children they are being kept from public school because "that's where the pedophiles are." 

[Smee]

I thought I knew what CSA was, and I know people who have been through it and it is morally reprehensible on every level. Young, innocent children who cannot consent, being groomed and manipulated into becoming someone’s sex toy and silenced through blame and threats. But without putting words into other posters’ mouths, when they say “understand what Josh was watching” they may be talking about the tenth circle of hell depravity of the specific video. I have not read the details and I don’t want to; I know enough from others’ comments about vomiting, being unable to finish the wiki page, warning us not to read etc to understand that this was brutal torture of a kind that Anna fortunately may not have the imagination to understand.