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[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date


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formergothardite
57 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

As to Buffy's question: anyone who is actually brainwashed will get a pass no matter how old they are

Doesn't that mean giving a pass to all sorts of people who do awful things? The people who beat their kids to death for God. The Trump supporters who staged a violent insurrection because they truly believed what Trump told them? The people who spent years covering up for Gothard because they were true believers? If Gothard actually believed all his stuff do we give him a pass? Do we never hold these people responsible for their actions in your opinion? 

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QuiverFullofBooks
31 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That is not how the word is commonly used and it was not how JB was using it.  He was using the common colloquial definition of sexual activities between family members.  

Unless you think JB parsed his words so carefully and he'd be fine and dandy with homosexual incest.

I think the important part of the definition is “intercourse,” not “heterosexual.” JB doesn’t consider the molestations to be incest because there was no intercourse. 

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HerNameIsBuffy
1 minute ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think the important part of the definition is “intercourse,” not “heterosexual.” JB doesn’t consider the molestations to be incest because there was no intercourse. 

Do you honestly believed JB looked it up in a dictionary so he could be as nuanced as possible when calling for their death?

And do you honestly believe that non-intercourse molestations that were same sex wouldn't have met his criteria for incest?  

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QuiverFullofBooks
2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Do you honestly believed JB looked it up in a dictionary so he could be as nuanced as possible when calling for their death?

And do you honestly believe that non-intercourse molestations that were same sex wouldn't have met his criteria for incest?  

I don’t think he looked it up, but I do think that incest is like rape in that it requires sex, not just sexual assault. I doubt that he gives any thought to homosexual incestuous non-intercourse molestation.

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meep
2 hours ago, Peaches-n-Beans said:

OKay I was homeschooled for 12 years, raised in homeschooling circles all over the US and the world - largely military families at various duty stations and families in the southern US so evangelical, fundie, fundie-lite all in there - and I have literally never heard this aside from the few incidences we discuss here (Zsu Anderson for example). Most people I've interacted with and grew up around were told they home schooled because either 1) god wasn't kept in public schools 2) sin was taught in public schools (usually sex education is what they meant and/or 3) the teachings are contradictory to the bible (Usually they mean evolution).

I'm sure some people think and say this but I would not call it common? At least in my experience.  Now someone else's experience is bound to be different but I wouldn't say it's "Common". The most common reason I heard growing up from friends families boils down to that they can't control what their kids are exposed to in the public school and that's why they homeschool. 

Your mileage my vary, I try to use as careful language as I can because most experiences (just in general) are not going to be universal so I definitely respect your experience. I say it is "common" in my experience as my family has been part of the homeschooling community since 1990 (with ATI/IBLP families) and as an adult, I have been a volunteer with homeschooling organizations and mentor homeschool graduates. 

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lumpentheologie
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I don’t think he looked it up, but I do think that incest is like rape in that it requires sex, not just sexual assault. I doubt that he gives any thought to homosexual incestuous non-intercourse molestation.

I'm surprised by this, I've always considered incest to be any sexual activity between relatives.  

Also sex isn't just intercourse. And my understanding is that legally, rape doesn't always have to be intercourse either. 

Edited by lumpentheologie
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Antimony
5 hours ago, Angelface said:

I am uncomfortable with this statement. My understanding of the legal definition of incest is:

“unlawful heterosexual sexual intercourse between members of the same family”

source: Collins Dictionary of Law @WJ Stewart, 2006

This could be a generational thing between Jim Bob and posters here. For a long time, the "polite" way to refer to child sexual abuse was to call it incest. The change in language came later but a lot of older folks still refer to this as incest, just as a blanket term, instead of sexual abuse. When JB made this part of his campaign pitch, his definition would have included Josh's actions as well as adult cases.

It's no doubt Anna knows what CSA is. She's on Parler and part of every "Save the Children" moral panic there's ever been in her lifetime. These circles have been imagining child abuse --- even child abuse that doesn't happen (for instance, andrenochrome, Q illuminati, Michelle Remembers) -- as a hobby to rile themselves up for years while simultaneously neglecting to do anything to protect any actual children. I wonder if that numbs them to actual child abuse because it isn't as extreme or of it exhausts their emotional energy for the real things that are happening around them and perpetrated by their own, or jades them in someway. Normally, with most activism, you'd expect the opposite -- but they're not chasing actual abusers in their own homes or circles, their chasing the Comic-Book-Illuminati Version of Politicians who are dong Alchemy on the Blood of Children and focusing on fake blood libel stories instead. That likely screws with you in someway, I'm just not sure in what way exactly. (Of course, we all do versions of this --- watch long documentaries on Ted Bundy and then act surprised to learn that most murders are done by people we know, that evil is super banal, etc. but the Q-adjacent circles Anna has run in are the extremes of the extreme.)

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Mama Mia
Posted (edited)

I know the going back and forth on Anna and her culpability and capacity has been done to death - but I think it’s important to note that we have no idea what she’s thinking or contemplating right now. Or if she’s just still numb or shocked or crying or raging or comatose and not at the thinking and planning part yet.  She has made no statements.
 

As far as we know JB and Michelle have set up his release, are making all the arrangements for the lawyers etc. and we don’t even know how much they knew prior to his arrest and court date, if anything. Or what their mental state is. As a mom, I can’t imagine. Maybe I watch too many crime shows, but what always sticks with me, is how horrifying as a parent it would be to discover your child was a serial killer, or something like — this. Even with their horrible ideology, and mishandling of his previous bad actions - I’m sure they could much more easily explain/rationalize / be angry but hope he was better, got it under control —- and then to find out not only that he was watching CSA material, but that there is really no rational way to explain or minimize it? And how horrifyingly awful this particular type was? What do you do as a parent? How much second guessing and beating yourself up would you do? It’s truly the stuff of nightmares. 
 

In case it reads like I’m defending them, I’m not. I’m just imagining the horror, and conflict, as a mother. 

Edited by Mama Mia
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HerNameIsBuffy
5 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I'm surprised by this, I've always considered incest to be any sexual activity between relatives.  

Also sex isn't just intercourse. And my understanding is that legally, rape doesn't always have to be intercourse either. 

A few years back I read an article of some jurisdictions that had the legal definition of rape having to be vaginal penetration (not necessarily with a penis) but the verbiage made rape a legal impossibility for anyone without a vagina, which is of course ridiculous.  I don't remember the specifics, but that there was some success in getting the definition changed.  

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Jackie3
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I appreciate you taking the time to try to explain, but for me I'm over trying to understand the absolute cognitive dissonant mind fuck of "here's why it's not her fault and she can't help it but she's totally accountable anyway"  which is the illogical stance many are claiming to take here.

1 hour ago, fraurosena said:

Everyone has a line that cannot be crossed. Has Anna's line been crossed yet? Probably not. With many mothers, the line is when harm occurs to their children. 

We cannot excuse Anna's brainwashing without excusing Josh's, Jim Bob's and a lot of other unsavory characters. Do you really want to go there--saying none of them are responsible because of their shitty upbringing?

There are women in Anna's situation who leave. Who protect their children. Who have enough self-love to actually protect themselves. Problem is, I suspect she still loves Josh in  a way (I can't imagine he is 100% evil to her all the time), so she has conflicted feelings.

If her line hasn't been crossed, she'll stay and will be miserable. Once her line is crossed, she'll know what she has to do. 

When I was Anna's age, trying to heal from my own horrible childhood, there were few self help books and no internet. Anna, in contrast, has a wealth of resources to connect her with other women in her shoes. It's pretty hard to understand why she wouldn't seek that help. There's no longer any prestige to being married to Josh Duggar.

I've thought about  this a lot, long before Josh's arrest. The only way society can function is to hold adults responsible for their actions, no matter how crappy their childhood was. Or how brainwashed they are. There's no way we can go back into the past and analyze if Anna's "brainwashing" or Josh's isolated, strict childhood contributed to their actions today. So we have to judge them on their actions as an adult regardless of what happened 20 years ago.

Edited by Jackie3
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CoveredInBees
58 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I doubt they do, but they could have called a security company to set up alarm system so they could activate it at night to go off if he left the room.  Also, if they're going to do this they could put cameras up for not much money.  

They owe it to their daughter to do this - actually they owe it to her not to have a sexual predator in their house, but that ship's sailed.

If I was that daughter (assuming I can't move out) I'd be barricading my door at night. 

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Idlewild
7 minutes ago, CoveredInBees said:

If I was that daughter (assuming I can't move out) I'd be barricading my door at night. 

Or at least asking mum and dad to store their firearms cache in my room....

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onekidanddone

Not that anyone said it here but I’m horrified at the belief Anna would only do something if hurt his own children. That shows complete inhumanity. The fact that any  child or adult has been raped and  brutalized should be the uncrossable line. It shows just how deep and dangerous their cult is. Separating victims outside their cult as lesser humans 
 

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HerNameIsBuffy
Just now, CoveredInBees said:

If I was that daughter (assuming I can't move out) I'd be barricading my door at night. 

Yeah, SAHD with parents so fundy they'll take in Josh I assume moving out isn't as simple of throwing some stuff in a duffle and heading to a friends house until they can get their own place.

This brings to mind how very different their baseline for normal is compared to most people.  If I were to apply to house a sex offender on bail in my home not only would my boys pack a few bags and remove themselves (as would my daughter if she still lived at home) but they would be on the phone with each other and my siblings talking about something being very wrong with Mom and they'd all be very concerned and trying to get me to talk to a professional.

Because in our world that behavior would be considered reason to doubt someone capable of making healthy decisions where in their world it's their Christian duty.

And fwiw in my close family there is only one agnostic, everyone else identifies as some flavor of Christian including one fervent fundy-lite who would be the first person to call for everyone protecting society from people like Josh.  I can hear her now...He can pray for forgiveness just as well from a jail cell where he can't hurt anyone else.  If God wants to forgive him he can, but that doesn't mean anyone else has to....if God didn't want us to use common sense he shouldn't have given us brains.  

Honestly, my relative would be MORE angry, if that's possible, that Josh did this claiming to be a Christian.  From past conversations I know she feels that anyone capable of this has to have rejected God and actively in league with Satan - there would be no tolerance for Anna for what she would see as her putting Josh before God.

Sorry...ramble...my point being even within zealous fundy lite people some would be calling for God to smite him and see Anna leaving as her duty to her children and to God. 

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Hera
3 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

These people make a HUGE deal about saying that they pray and wait for the one that God has planned for them. So, I don't see how they can have it both ways. Don't give away your heart pieces. Trust that God will send you the right one. God doesn't make mistakes. This is who God had planned for Anna. 

The idea that Anna believes that this life is what God had planned for her is just so heartbreaking to me.  Like, you buy in and you dream of having the perfect fundie life with a loving husband a bunch of kids and la de da happiness and instead you get Josh. And you think it’s somehow your fault that God sent you a Josh and you’re supposed to make him better and he’s your cross to bear and if you were a better wife he’d be a better husband, blah, blah, blah, instead of it all being Josh’s fault he’s a flaming pile of garbage.  
 

I can only imagine the unexpressed and suppressed rage these women must feel.

Also, I know the magistrate really didn’t have much of a choice to grant Josh bail, but I remain pissed that she allowed the Rebers to act as his babysitters even though Mrs. Reber said she was afraid to be alone with him.  Obviously, Mr. Reber is a raging sack of shit to put his wife and daughter in the position to be living with a predator, but I’d have hoped the judicial system would have told Josh to find a minder who wouldn’t have to live in fear in her own home. 

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Cam
Posted (edited)

I was raised Catholic. I found it confusing, tho I never verbalized the many questions I had. I stopped attending church at age 16, went through some rocky times and became “born again” in my 20s. Long story, but it saved my life and my sanity. I was a true believer, pray-er, all of it!  Several decades later, tho, one day I thought, “wow, this isn’t doing a thing for me.” So of course I prayed about it, thinking the “uplifting spirit in my heart” would be renewed. It never was. I couldn’t believe it.

And then one day, for the first time, the blinders fell off my eyes and I saw the patriarchy for the first time. Once you see it, you can never unsee it.

What flipped the switch for me was after I read several books by women who’d fled the FDLS cult led by Warren Jeffs, it dawned on me that Christianity was just a watered down version of a strict religious cult.

That was almost 10 years ago, and then it took at least five years to let go of the fear of letting go of Christianity. (I would say I’m now in the agnostic group.) Among other things, I read Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Mink Kidd and watched Julia Sweeney’s video on leaving religion which made so much sense.

I missed some of the religious things for a good while. Now I can be inspired by nature and also the goodwill of others, either individually or on a large scale. I still burn a candle in my house sometimes to honor a loved one’s passing.

I just can no longer pray to an old white guy with a long beard wearing flowing robes floating around on big fluffy clouds. 

I also try to educate myself on the Divine Feminine, and it seems that emphasis is on the Earth, and that seems more accessible. 

 

 

 

Edited by Cam
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HerNameIsBuffy
5 minutes ago, Hera said:

Also, I know the magistrate really didn’t have much of a choice to grant Josh bail, but I remain pissed that she allowed the Rebers to act as his babysitters even though Mrs. Reber said she was afraid to be alone with him.  Obviously, Mr. Reber is a raging sack of shit to put his wife and daughter in the position to be living with a predator, but I’d have hoped the judicial system would have told Josh to find a minder who wouldn’t have to live in fear in her own home. 

I am so with you.  I expected him to get bail, I knew it would enrage me but I expected it.  I didn't expect the court to accept sitters where one admitted in court to fear and only doing this because it was her husbands decision.  The lawyers here keep saying the judge had to let him out to be cautious about his rights and not giving grounds for appeal or whatever, and that makes sense to me (again - rage, but I get it) but I haven't seen it discussed about why the judge allowed THESE people in particular to watch him due to her statements.

I know the court can't appear to be holding their religion agaisnt them, but admitting to fear in court isn't about their religion.  Why didn't they reject them and tell Smuggar to get someone else?

7 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Not that anyone said it here but I’m horrified at the belief Anna would only do something if hurt his own children. That shows complete inhumanity. The fact that any  child or adult has been raped and  brutalized should be the uncrossable line. It shows just how deep and dangerous their cult is. Separating victims outside their cult as lesser humans 
 

This is what bothers me about the bible passage that Deanna posted.  Soemthing about God being mad at anyone causing "the little children who believith in me to stumble."

  1. No child "stumbles' due to sexual abuse.  It is the sin and shame of the perpetrator, not theirs.
  2. Little ones raised to believe their flavor of Christianity aren't any more precious and worth of protection than every other child.  Protected and loved should be the birth right of every child born to anyone, anywhere.  Full stop.
21 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Or at least asking mum and dad to store their firearms cache in my room....

I think the judge required them to remove all firearms from the home as they don't have a gun safe.  Can someone confirm?  Does anyone know if the court said it had something to do with Josh's protection, or was that just random online commentary?

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fraurosena
1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Doesn't that mean giving a pass to all sorts of people who do awful things? The people who beat their kids to death for God. The Trump supporters who staged a violent insurrection because they truly believed what Trump told them? The people who spent years covering up for Gothard because they were true believers? If Gothard actually believed all his stuff do we give him a pass? Do we never hold these people responsible for their actions in your opinion? 

I would like to take the time to answer your question, but I don't have much time right now. My guess is that it'll be tomorrow evening (my time) before I can get round to it. My short answer is, no it most definitely does not give a pass to do all kinds of awful things. But I'll explain my thoughts on this more thoroughly tomorrow. 

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countressrascal

What ever happen to Bill Gothard? Did he spend time behind bars?

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Jess

 

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think the judge required them to remove all firearms from the home as they don't have a gun safe.  Can someone confirm?  Does anyone know if the court said it had something to do with Josh's protection, or was that just random online commentary?

It’s standard to not allow firearms and yeah it’s partially to prevent suicide since people facing charges are at higher risk, but also to protect society as a whole. 

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BlackberryGirl

Recovering Catholic here. My parents were fairly typical mid century Catholics. Mass every Sunday, confession most Saturdays, grace before most meals, a prayer before long car trips..first Communion and Confirmation celebrated. I know my father was an altar boy. Went to CCD, attended Catholic school in 4th grade in Montana, and 5th grade in Ohio. 
 

i began to question in grade 5, after my parents and brother were discussing Kierkegaard and his leap of faith. It made sense to me that we CHOOSE  to believe what we believe. after an especially unpleasant school year, my parents were told that I would be better off in public school. 
 

but until I was 16 I went to Mass, and CCD classes, took the sacraments etc. until on a Saturday night at confession when I was confessing, “impure thoughts.” and the damn priest got overly inquisitive. I shouted “what the hell is WRONG with you?” and left the confessional, and the Church.

but there are things I miss.the rosary, the prayers, my mind still says most of the old Catholic prayers I was raised with. I miss lighting a candle. But go back, nah...too much knowledge...the abuse scandal has forever made the Catholic Church an organization to which I can not belong. Even though we sent the Grandberries to Catholic School, it was just the best available at the time. But they were never ever alone with the priest or any adult to be honest. 
 

all this to say brainwashing sticks. Mine was basic Catholicism. Anna is steeped in the fundie, IBLP, AtI quiverfull, Duggar koolaid. She’s going to miss a lot more than a few formal prayers, if she ever examines her life.

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HerNameIsBuffy
1 minute ago, fraurosena said:

I would like to take the time to answer your question, but I don't have much time right now. My guess is that it'll be tomorrow evening (my time) before I can get round to it. My short answer is, no it most definitely does not give a pass to do all kinds of awful things. But I'll explain my thoughts on this more thoroughly tomorrow. 

I look forward to reading that.  I always appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into your replies.

I've learned a lot of FJ over the years just from being exposed to points of view sometimes very different than my own.   Over the years I've questioned things I believe, some have changed dramatically, some are unchanged but I'm better at explaining why when asked because of discussions here where I've had to examine why I hold certain things to be true.

You have a way of discussing things that is both direct yet so civil it's always an interesting exchange of ideas rather than snippy bickering.  Conversations with you always make me want to learn more, listen more. 

Then it wears off and I go back to my seat in the back of the snippy bickering class.  I'm a work in progress, not there yet.

 

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OrchidBlossom
7 hours ago, Angelface said:

I am uncomfortable with this statement. My understanding of the legal definition of incest is:

“unlawful heterosexual sexual intercourse between members of the same family”

source: Collins Dictionary of Law @WJ Stewart, 2006

I don't know where you are from but incest laws and legal definitions vary wildly from place to place or in the US from state to state. So I'm "uncomfortable" with you making sweeping declarations that incest is only/always defined as 1. heterosexual and 2. intercourse only, since that's simply not accurate. In Arkansas, where the Duggars reside, it includes intercourse or deviate sexual activity (which has a significantly broader meaning, and while I don't know or want to know whether what Josh did to his sisters falls under that definition, it is entirely possible). 

 

Source: AR Code Sect. 5-26-202

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