[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 30: LaCounting On to His Trial Date

[ILoveJellybeans]

Anna is probably under a lot of pressure about what the right thing to do in this situation is. Her non fundie family members are probably telling her to divorce him because he is a danger to her kids. Her fundie family members are probably telling her not to get a divorce and to forgive him and welcome him back once he is out of prison (hopefully when the kids are grown), because that is what their cult thinks God wants. Kindest thing Josh could do right now is to file for divorce himself, promising to pay child support but not attempt to get access to the kids, freeing Anna from the guilt of making this decision herself.

Josh probably wont do this. He would have to have a heart, and judging by his actions and the horrors he gets off to, he does not.

[SassyPants]

All the talk about Anna and what she knows...

Well, as a neurotypical human being, wife and mother who has been tasked with monitoring Josh when in the presence of their children, she knows now. So no more excuses. She needs to protect herself and her children, divorce him and move away. If not, she is complicit too, because she would be refusing to protect both her own and other  innocent children.

[Peaches-n-Beans]

8 hours ago, meep said:

It is quite common in homeschooling circles to teach children they are being kept from public school because "that's where the pedophiles are." 

OKay I was homeschooled for 12 years, raised in homeschooling circles all over the US and the world - largely military families at various duty stations and families in the southern US so evangelical, fundie, fundie-lite all in there - and I have literally never heard this aside from the few incidences we discuss here (Zsu Anderson for example). Most people I've interacted with and grew up around were told they home schooled because either 1) god wasn't kept in public schools 2) sin was taught in public schools (usually sex education is what they meant and/or 3) the teachings are contradictory to the bible (Usually they mean evolution).

I'm sure some people think and say this but I would not call it common? At least in my experience.  Now someone else's experience is bound to be different but I wouldn't say it's "Common". The most common reason I heard growing up from friends families boils down to that they can't control what their kids are exposed to in the public school and that's why they homeschool. 

[Satan'sFortress]

10 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

Just wondering out of curiosity, if someone were to create a time machine and take Mr. and Mrs. Keller to now before Josh and Anna got married, would they still let the marriage happen? 

These people make a HUGE deal about saying that they pray and wait for the one that God has planned for them. So, I don't see how they can have it both ways. Don't give away your heart pieces. Trust that God will send you the right one. God doesn't make mistakes. This is who God had planned for Anna. 

[molecule]

4 hours ago, Pleiades_06 said:

This phrase was in JB and M’s and Jessa’s. Anyone know if it’s in reference to a Bible verse or something similar?

 

It is from Luke 8:17. 

"For all that is secret will eventually be brought into the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all."

 

[Iamtheway]

Who would have thought Joy and Austin would be the best att making an official statement? Not me. Do we think they have a pr-person that helped them? And if they do, do they have their own or share with the rest of the family? 

[Peaches-n-Beans]

6 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

Who would have thought Joy and Austin would be the best att making an official statement? Not me. Do we think they have a pr-person that helped them? And if they do, do they have their own or share with the rest of the family? 

I'm super surprised too because I really don't see them as the types to have a PR person, though I suppose they must to release that statement. If they do have a PR person they must not share them with the rest of the family because the Duggar family official statement was not nearly that good. 

[Mama Mia]

13 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

Who would have thought Joy and Austin would be the best att making an official statement? Not me. Do we think they have a pr-person that helped them? And if they do, do they have their own or share with the rest of the family? 

Good question. It might also be better written because they waited until after the bail hearing to make it. The others made their statements after the initial charges. Which, TBF, it was immediate, they were likely in shock, and  as far as they knew could have been more open to dispute/possibly accidental/misconstrued etc... than the pure planned horror that was presented at the hearing. 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Mama Mia

[Bethy]

14 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

It's not so much speculation as it is the rules Bill Gothard put in place. Gothard basically created a booklet where a young girl is to blame for assaulting her because of how she dresses and looks. When you dig deeper into the culture that Gothard created there is a great amount of victim shaming.

? THIS

My fundie upbringing could well be described as "Gothard adjacent" - my parents had gone to IBLP and espoused many of his concepts, but we weren't skirts-only (though on several occasions my mother speculated that we should be) and we didn't homeschool with Wisdom Booklets. But I was definitely taught, as early as elementary school, that if I were harmed in some way and it turned out my carelessness (ie undressing in front of an uncovered window) had brought the attacker's attention onto me, then I shared the blame. I was verbally sexually harassed at school when I was twelve (and I was a very young, naive twelve, so it was doubly upsetting) and I never told my parents. I knew they would ask what I had done to bring it on myself and in truth, I had been careless with the hem of my skirt the first time it happened, so I just knew in my heart that they would blame me and I couldn't emotionally handle that. So I hid it from them...for close to 30 years now. Thankfully nothing that happened to me ever went beyond verbal harassment but that was damaging enough. Raising a daughter myself, I'm enraged that my parents even sipped that kool-aid.

[Satan'sFortress]

Do we know if Anna watched the bond hearing? She may have chosen not to.

[Cora Persephona]

Finally, I have reached the end! I checked the Smuggar thread to read what people were discussing about the latest baby news on Thursday before the news broke and then went to sleep. On Friday, I left to spend Orthodox Easter with my parents (after spending last easter and christmas alone, we're now vaccinated and felt safe to gather). On Friday night, I logged on to FJ to see what I'd been missing. Since I mostly live in the JRod threads I was expecting to have plenty to read for the evening. To my amazement not much had happened over there while I was gone. And then I saw why. Needless to say, I spent as much as reasonably possible of my Easter vacation reading these threads. I almost caught up a few times, but I was too mentally exhausted yo continue/gather my thoughts.

There's absolutely nothing new I can say since everyone went over this plenty of times already, but I will say it nonetheless just so I can clear my head.

I agree that Anna is both abused and abuser in this sick cult she's a part of. However, my sympathy for her is extremely limited and there's only so much I can excuse as being a product of brainwashing. Indoctrination can excuse her staying after infidelity, in the end there are plenty of relationships that continue after infidelity in the secular world. But getting pleasure from the sexual abuse of little children should be disgusting to all people at all times. I cannot imagine being able to overcome this kind of horror and being able to continue a marriage in this situation. And we all know that if this was any person outside their group they would not greet him with open arms or allow him close to their children. I don't think we'd see any "whatever the truth is" messages then.

So yeah, if she welcomes him back with open arms instead of prioritising her children, no sympathy here. If this is a test from God, how do you love a God that uses the pain of children for your spiritual growth? Yeah, I know Job got a greater reward in the end, too bad that his first wife and set of children didn't deserve the same consideration. 

Having said that, I am 99% sure that she will not divorce him. And he will not divorce her, he can't risk his cushy life after prison. Hopefully, he will be in prison long enough to make further babies an impossibility. I can't agree that staying married while he's in prison (in the case of him getting a 20 year sentence) is almost the same as getting divorced. Because to me this still shows support for him and a willingness to forgive his actions and, while I do believe that in general people are able to change  and can be rehabilitated, I don't believe Josh with this crime in particular is capable of it. And so the indoctrination continues with the next generation that will suffer in this cult.

Her kids at some point will find out and understand the entire scope of their father's crimes and they might resent their mother for staying. I hope they can access and benefit from whatever therapy/counselling  is needed to help them process and heal from their shitty parents and cult. My sympathy is entirely with them.

TL/DR: I spent too much time reading all the constantly moving threads to not write down my opinion. It's nothing that hasn't said before and better by many others. 

ETA: I assume that at some point the discussion picked up again in the Jillyverse and now I will "have" to spend the rest of my day trying to keep up over there. Surely she can't have been silent for the entire week I spent reading the Smuggar threads.?

Edited May 9, 2021 by Cora Persephona
afraid to look at the JRod threads after a week away

[Four is Enough]

17 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

I don't miss sitting through mass but sometimes I would like to simply go back to the church I attended growing up, at a time when no mass or other service was going on, to sit quietly and take in the sights and scents.  As a child, when I was bored and just counting the minutes until mass was over, I would look at the various scenes depicted in the stained glass windows that went all around the church.  There were always flower arrangements near the altar, and the scent of candles.  I still occasionally go in to light a candle to offer up a prayer.

There is great peace in an empty church, even a church where no service is going on but people are inside. I love to sit there as well. Our home church didn't have a bank of candles, but I do love the habit of lighting a candle.

11 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

(A friend of mine has a secular divorce and a Catholic annulment.  The divorce was to get the guy out of her life and to separate their finances.  The annulment was to free her emotionally from the feeling that she was still married. She had no interest in re-marriage, but she likes that she is not married to the guy in God’s eyes.)

I went through both with the Practice Husband. It took years to get him completely out of my head. Now, after being married to Mr. Four for a very long time, I can finally look back at the Practice Husband, remember our attraction, and remember the good things about him. I'm grateful I went through the annulment process. It was a really good way of examining everything.

9 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

(re: Anna) She also understands and comprehends molestation, incest, sexual assault, and rape (all things Josh has been accused of) and she has stuck by him for years. We have no indication at all that she doesn't understand these crimes, but tons of indications that she does and that she chooses to stick by him anyway.

To me, this is the saddest thing about her. That she thinks she MUST stand by him, or that she doesn't deserve any better or safer than him. This hurts me on her behalf.

[BadMurphy]

35 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

Who would have thought Joy and Austin would be the best att making an official statement? Not me. Do we think they have a pr-person that helped them? And if they do, do they have their own or share with the rest of the family? 

I don’t like how a lot of their statements focus on “the truth” as if the feds are just completely making this up, it’s almost like they’re trying to start their own conspiracy theory. 

[fraurosena]

18 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

For those of you who don't think Anna is capable of thinking outside her brainwashing I'm curious why JB/M don't get the same pass.  Clearly they have their own issues to adopt this lifestyle, if they had damaging childhoods does that matter?

Anyone who is brainwashed doesn't suddenly start thinking outside of it. It's not like someone who's been brainwashed from a young age suddenly acquires critical thinking skills when they reach a certain age. And it's not only children who get brainwashed, but many adults, with even those with perfectly normal childhoods, get brainwashed by cults too. They don't just 'shake it off' or suddenly come to their senses. Brainwashing is very pervasive. It takes over your way of thinking, it determines your world view and takes away any critical thinking. Brainwashing doesn't simply disappear because you want it to either. Think about it. I consider Buffy to be a smart woman who uses her critical thinking skills, and only a couple of years ago she found that she can no longer reconcile herself with Catholicism. And yet.. she said that she misses her rosary, the rituals, the mainstay. That too, is a residue of a type conditioning. Not as extensive and all-encompassing as the brainwashing Anna has had, but still, she feels that need, because it is all she has known for the largest part of her life. You don't just lose that because you've come to a different insight. And so it is with Anna, but even more so because she wasn't just conditioned, she was brainwashed, and therefore it is doubtful if she will ever attain a different insight.

Some people who have been drawn into cults do come to their senses and leave. Or maybe as a child they never really bought into it, because their personalities, their innate way of thinking, allows them to believe that not everything they are told is true. But many others, like Anna, have personalities that need the certainty of what others tell them is the right and true way. They lack confidence in themselves and need other people to guide them. I think the only way Anna would ever leave is if she has someone beside her whom she trusts implicitly to guide her in the right direction. Sadly, at the moment, she has placed her trust in what Jim Bob and Michelle tell her.

As for Jim Bob and Michelle themselves? They bought into the cult hook, line and sinker. IIRC Michelle at 16 became very frightened of going to hell after seeing a movie and turned to religion. That's how she met Jim Bob, and she clung onto his religion and his guidance out of fear of what would happen to her when she dies. And at an incredibly vulnerable time in her life, after she had a miscarriage, both she and Jim Bob were drawn into Gothardism. It is my speculation that Michelle is a true believer, but that Jim Bob really enjoys the power patriarchy has given him. Neither will feel the need to leave the cult. 

As to Buffy's question: anyone who is actually brainwashed will get a pass no matter how old they are. 

Oh, and in case you're wondering, I don't think Jill's moving away from the cult is as miraculous as it may seem. She's simply found someone other than her parents whom she implicitly trusts, a new headship if you will, and he has guided her to another path where she is encouraged to think for herself. The kudos for that belong to Derick.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 hours ago, TheRadleyPorch said:

In practice, what purpose does knowing exactly who to blame, when to blame them, and how much to blame them serve?

In reality none, because IMO she's morally accountable for her actions.

Here?  I was asking because of the post after post about how she doesn't understand this or that, can't be expected to protect her kids because of her upbringing.  I want those people to tell me where their line is or just admit there isn't one and everyone with a less than optimal childhood gets a free lifelong pass from accountability.

I was actually hoping for a discussion where I might learn how these people are seeing it other than just their own form of denial of how bad someone's actions can be.

I see that's futile and it's just more nonsense of she's totally a victim of her past with no agency and at the same time should be held totally accountable....

You all can knock yourselves out with your empathy for her...I'm done attempting to understand it.

 

22 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

It's not like someone who's been brainwashed from a young age suddenly acquires critical thinking skills when they reach a certain age.

I made that very clear in my post on this.

I appreciate you taking the time to try to explain, but for me I'm over trying to understand the absolute cognitive dissonant mind fuck of "here's why it's not her fault and she can't help it but she's totally accountable anyway"  which is the illogical stance many are claiming to take here.

24 minutes ago, fraurosena said:

As to Buffy's question: anyone who is actually brainwashed will get a pass no matter how old they are. 

This is a logically consistent answer - thank you.  I may not agree with it in this case, but I can see how a reasonable person could.  

[onekidanddone]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Edited May 9, 2021 by onekidanddone

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 hours ago, Angelface said:

I am uncomfortable with this statement. My understanding of the legal definition of incest is:

“unlawful heterosexual sexual intercourse between members of the same family”

source: Collins Dictionary of Law @WJ Stewart, 2006

That is not how the word is commonly used and it was not how JB was using it.  He was using the common colloquial definition of sexual activities between family members.  

Unless you think JB parsed his words so carefully and he'd be fine and dandy with homosexual incest.

[Giraffe]

7 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

I’m sure Smugger will enjoy be waited on 24/7.  By all times does that mean someone has to up all night watching him?

I’ve wondered this, too. With most people I wouldn’t think much about what’s going on when everyone’s in bed, but I could see Josh pretending to sleep but then get up and see what he can get away with. I doubt the family has an alarm on his door that goes off any time he opens it in the middle of the night. 

 

[onekidanddone]

I’m sick of the poor Anna routine. A deeply disturbed child abuser lived in her home with access to her own children. Saying he only looked at CP of other kids and not hurt his fill me with rage. She is not this innocent fragile porcelain doll. I don’t care what about excuses she tries that does not release her from being culpable 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I’ve wondered this, too. With most people I wouldn’t think much about what’s going on when everyone’s in bed, but I could see Josh pretending to sleep but then get up and see what he can get away with. I doubt the family has an alarm on his door that goes off any time he opens it in the middle of the night. 

 

I doubt they do, but they could have called a security company to set up alarm system so they could activate it at night to go off if he left the room.  Also, if they're going to do this they could put cameras up for not much money.  

They owe it to their daughter to do this - actually they owe it to her not to have a sexual predator in their house, but that ship's sailed.

[SassyPants]

10 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I’ve wondered this, too. With most people I wouldn’t think much about what’s going on when everyone’s in bed, but I could see Josh pretending to sleep but then get up and see what he can get away with. I doubt the family has an alarm on his door that goes off any time he opens it in the middle of the night. 

 

He’ll have to wear an electronic tracking device, right?

[Jess]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

He’ll have to wear an electronic tracking device, right?

Yes

[onekidanddone]

1 minute ago, SassyPants said:

He’ll have to wear an electronic tracking device, right?

Yes however the monitor doesn’t prevent anything he does inside the house

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa1977]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

They owe it to their daughter to do this - actually they owe it to her not to have a sexual predator in their house, but that ship's sailed

Is Josh living in a house with a girl in? WHAT???

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

To me, this is the saddest thing about her. That she thinks she MUST stand by him, or that she doesn't deserve any better or safer than him. This hurts me on her behalf.

This seems to be a fiction being perpetuated here.  @formergothardite stated that even for ILBP and ATI families this has crossed a line where she would get support for leaving.  

That may have been true before, but that is not her cult's stance this time....so if she stays it's in defiance of what they're taught, not because of it.

1 minute ago, Melissa1977 said:

Is Josh living in a house with a girl in? WHAT???

She's a 22 (23?) year old SAHD.  

Yes, these parents brought this monster into their home to live with their daughter.