(CW: Child Sex Abuse) Josh & Anna 29: Left with Nothing but a Flip Phone Full of Shame

[AliceInFundyland]

This is going to get stuck when the thread bumps but I'll go ahead.

I believe this (pedophilia/molestation) in general is a tough subject for the board because

1. We do have a lot of survivors

2. We have a lot of parents

3. We have a lot of crime junkies/people with interests intersecting all through fundamentalism.

4. It's abhorrent

....ever since Josh 1.0 - when the topics of molestation and predator and pedophilia come up, there's a lot of speculation about the words. And what makes one person a thing or another thing. And then we put on our internet-based (or not) expert hats and say "well"

I would find it helpful to have data or sources too. But it would be equally helpful that if you don't know what you're talking about, you make that clear. It can get rather annoying when accusations start flying based on what you "think" is true. If something doesn't sound right,go find a competing and fact-based source.

Especially when we're discussing serious things like the causes of pedophilia.

 

[neuroticcat]

19 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

Most teens watch (some) porn at some point. Or a lot. I fail to see how legal porn leads anyone to pedophilia. The feeling/need for prepubescent CSA has to already be there.

This is anecdotal, but I do know two young men from Christian backgrounds who did not start out with feeling desire for it. They started with regular porn, stumbled on darker stuff, and the dopamine/addiction cycle took over from there.

My understanding is that this is also accepted knowledge with violent porn among young adult males. There was a UK study awhile back - if I wasn’t lazy I’d try to hunt it up - so take my memory for what it’s worth. But they interviewed all these teens. The girls were being pressured into more and more violent stuff as their boyfriends consumed more and more violent porn. It wasn’t like they had a natural appetite for it, but as the addiction grew and the content became more extreme, they went further down that path.

I know it’s popular these days to talk about ethical porn and sex positivity, but I personally don’t think it’s that easy to splice these things out. Yes, we can talk about the victims and consent vs abuse as far as ethics, but as far as the consumers, the brain chemistry changes are powerful and real always looking for more and more hits. Perhaps some people are inborn with prepubescent sexual desire  or are susceptible to them because of nurture/abuse/circumstances, but I think for others the normal appetites can be derailed by consuming and discovering it.

Edited May 6, 2021 by neuroticcat
Clarity

[CinnaJen]

Had to catch up after a long nap.  I got my second dose of Pfizer vax yesterday and feel run down today ?. Low fever, fatigue and my arm is very itchy and sore.  I’m starting to feel a little better now.  I’ve been laying around reading FJ all day.  

[luv2laugh]

This is from the child molestation prevention site about education and awareness of this problem. It’s interesting:

https://www.childmolestationprevention.org/about-sex-specific-treatment

Also, I have found this MN county government PDF helpful. "Behavioral Indicators" of predators. I wish the media would use this as an opportunity to educate people in the public about this. There's a lot I didn't know and have been learning because of what has happened. I hope there can be more studies done to figure out why this happens and what can be done. It's easy to have an idea of what a child predator might be but no one suspects someone who goes onto become a father is capable of downloading CSA materials like Josh. I know I'm not alone in my confusion. There is not a lot currently known about this, as Dr. Todd Grande (youtube psychologist) said in a video on the Josh news but, a minimum, I'm comforted by the fact that the FBI watches those who download CSA like a hawk in an attempt to catch people before they act.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by luv2laugh

[HerNameIsBuffy]

30 minutes ago, Marshmallow World said:

Almost 30 pages in 24 hours! WOW! Mods, a query: What has been the fastest moving thread of all time? I would think that the past week has some contenders. 

Poopistan definitely had it's moments.  JRod around Nurie's wedding for sure.  The prior Joshgates when the news broke each time.

Politcs threads move fast on election day, but not like this one.

From my experience I'd guess it was the joshgate stuff...but I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong.  

[Satan'sFortress]

1 hour ago, SillyDillys said:

I was watching my Flyers taking on our rival Penguins..... Something calming 

Flyers fan here, too.  And a Penguin hater.   And, at least the Phillies are watchable this season (so far).

[RainbowSky]

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Poopistan definitely had it's moments.  JRod around Nurie's wedding for sure.  The prior Joshgates when the news broke each time.

Politcs threads move fast on election day, but not like this one.

From my experience I'd guess it was the joshgate stuff...but I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong.  

The first few Duggar marriages and babies were wild with posts too! 

Edited May 6, 2021 by RainbowSky

[HerNameIsBuffy]

54 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I think the Sun article also said that Mrs Reber was friends with Michelle and felt she owed her for past kindnesses. 

And this is why I don't accept favors from people...never know what crazy shit they'll want when they call the marker.

6 minutes ago, Satan'sFortress said:

And a Penguin hater.  

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[CinnaJen]

1 minute ago, RainbowSky said:

The first few marriages and babies were wild with posts too! 

I remember waiting for Jessa to birth Spurgeon-the boards were so busy!  I still think he’s one of the cutest duggarlings.  

[pooplexed]

9 hours ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

Jim Bob is notoriously cheap. I I doubt he’ll even want to pay them.

True. But if there is a payment, I am sure it will not go to "them." It will go to "him." He has an umbrella to maintain. All she has to do is cook, mop, laundry, entertain the 6 1/2 Dugglets, shop, joyfully submit, and perhaps do some helpmate ministry for her headship by counselling Anna to identify what it is she did to cause Joshie to sin. That is not paid work.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

21 minutes ago, CinnaJen said:

Had to catch up after a long nap.  I got my second dose of Pfizer vax yesterday and feel run down today ?. Low fever, fatigue and my arm is very itchy and sore.  I’m starting to feel a little better now.  I’ve been laying around reading FJ all day.  

Was it worse than the side effects from your first dose?

I had my first dose of Pfizer on Tuesday and my headache just went away, and an old injury has been hurting since, which is as weird side effect, but it's also just stopped along with my headache.

[CinnaJen]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Was it worse than the side effects from your first dose?

I had my first dose of Pfizer on Tuesday and my headache just went away, and an old injury has been hurting since, which is as weird side effect, but it's also just stopped along with my headache.

The first dose I had a weird headache almost like a tension headache or pressure? It wrapped all around my head.  It slowly faded over 24 hours.  My arm was also mildly sore for a couple of days.  Second vax definitely gave me worse side effects.  Fever, fatigue, itching sore arm and my neck and head hurt.  I took some Tylenol PM and passed out earlier and now I’m feeling better.  My sister and I got our vaccines on the same days and she had a worse reaction to the first and nothing after the second.  

[Satan'sFortress]

14 minutes ago, Satan'sFortress said:

And a Penguin hater.

Just Penguins,  Not penguins!!!

[Emkay]

I’ve FINALLY caught up, and I’m sure I missed something along the way.
 

One thing I caught when listening to Emily from lawyer reacts on the bond hearing today was that they’ve apparently been having trouble getting the Duggars (I’m assuming Anna, though I’m sure JB and M are putting in their two cents) to agree to the forensic exams of the M kids. How was that NOT a stipulation for letting him out on bond?! 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 minutes ago, Emkay said:

I’ve FINALLY caught up, and I’m sure I missed something along the way.
 

One thing I caught when listening to Emily from lawyer reacts on the bond hearing today was that they’ve apparently been having trouble getting the Duggars (I’m assuming Anna, though I’m sure JB and M are putting in their two cents) to agree to the forensic exams of the M kids. How was that NOT a stipulation for letting him out on bond?! 

Because the focus is on the rights of the offender and not the safety of children.

Edited May 7, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy
leaving 'not' out changed the whole meaning

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Yes, and honestly they already have been. Blanket trained, instant obedience  kids simply will not be able to speak against their parents.

I wasn’t even raised in a fundie household but it was verbally and emotionally abusive. I remember a therapist for some reason asking me questions about our home life and I 100 percent lied because I wanted to give the right answer. 

How much more so to children who have literally been beaten into cheerful compliance and a godlike view of parents. I do think trained professionals will see flags but that is different from getting proof. 

You don’t even have to be raised in an authoritarian family.  Many kids get nervous about saying anything bad about their parents.  My ex and I made many mistakes, but one thing we didn’t do was tell our children to lie or conceal information about the family.  We were, on the whole, a loving, accepting household where kids could (and did) speak up and where corporal punishment as such was not used.

Our daughter was 10 when CPS called her out of class to ask about some child abuse allegations against us.  The claim was that my then-husband had abused our then 6-year-old son.   My daughter had recently read a book about a family being split up and sent to foster care by CPS and her imagination went bonkers, so she froze.  She didn’t want to talk to these people.  She answered only “yes,” “no,” and “I don’t know.” 

Needless to say, her reluctance to speak increased the presumption that my then-husband was guilty.  He was not.  The allegation was built on a “bruise” on our son’s cheek that the doctor confirmed was an allergic reaction to a bug bite.  We got it straightened out within a day.  But it was definitely scary, and it also showed how even a kid who has nothing serious to hide about her family may be terrified to speak.  

How much more likely is it that children brought up like the Duggarlings will not speak?  The best we can hope is that they will be interviewed in a context and in a way that they will relax and tell the interviewer things they don’t realize are “bad” but which will let the interviewers know that something is wrong.

(Inside the spoiler I put the full story of the incident for those who want to know how the CPS investigation happened in the first place and how it was resolved.  It is in the spoiler because adds nothing to my argument and takes up space.  There should be no triggers unless violence against tape players and yelling disturbs you. ?)

Spoiler

The full story is that 6-year-old son had been rebellious about bedtime the previous night.  There had been a lot of shouting because he insisted on playing story-telling tapes loudly when he was supposed to be listening to soothing music quietly. Father was furious and took away the tape player. Kid went at father to get tape player at which point angry father threw tape player against the wall. At some point after this, kid (expected now to go to sleep without stories or music) kept getting out of bed and wandering elsewhere in the house.  Dad would grab him and carry him (fighting) back to bed.  That was the extent of the “abuse.”  

Through this I was “helping” daughter with homework and would occasionally shout at the kid also.  I think (but am not sure) that after I finished with my daughter I intervened and the by then exhausted 6-yr-old let me put him to bed and rub his back to get him to sleep.  This is what happened more than once.  Our son suffered from ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) but had not been diagnosed yet.

The next morning as we were getting in the car to drive to school, I noticed a new redness on his cheek (it had not been there the night before).  I didn’t think twice about it.   Kids who are running around out doors get bites and scratches all the time.

Apparently, his first grade teacher saw the redness and concluded it was a bruise.  How she concluded this I do not know because it was getting pinker as the day progressed, which is more like an irritation of the skin than a bruise. (She hated us because we had asked to have our son move out of her class.)  Anyway, she took him aside and asked question after question and finally the kid said something along the lines of, “Maybe it happened when my dad was holding me down in bed after he threw my tape player against the wall.”   That was enough for a CPS call from the school. 

The CPS guy who interviewed us that evening said that there had not seemed to be much to go on in the story but that our daughter freezing the way she did was a reason he had to investigate further.  Husband was entirely cleared even before I took kid to the doctor to look at inflamed cheek which the CPS guy agreed was not looking like a bruise at all.  

 

[CinnaJen]

1 minute ago, Emkay said:

I’ve FINALLY caught up, and I’m sure I missed something along the way.
 

One thing I caught when listening to Emily from lawyer reacts on the bond hearing today was that they’ve apparently been having trouble getting the Duggars (I’m assuming Anna, though I’m sure JB and M are putting in their two cents) to agree to the forensic exams of the M kids. How was that NOT a stipulation for letting him out on bond?! 

Why is she so hesitant.  I don’t want to speculate but that makes me feel really uneasy ?

[onekidanddone]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Was it worse than the side effects from your first dose?

I had my first dose of Pfizer on Tuesday and my headache just went away, and an old injury has been hurting since, which is as weird side effect, but it's also just stopped along with my headache.

Had my second Pfizer on Tuesday and I was sluggish and achy all day yesterday. I probably had a fever and I should have been in bed (however I’m an idiot and felt I couldn’t take time off because we were short staffed by this week). 

I feel much better today 

[anniebgood]

To the hockey people, at least your teams breathe. The Kings are so stagnant. I met the errant spouse at a Kings-Penguins game 36 years ago. Before helmets. 

And our Dodgers are scraping the bottom. 

It's my thought that Smuggar will screw things up and have a nice cement cell to live in. Anna doesn't have the guts to tattle on him, I do sincerely hope that his children are interviews separately .

[CinnaJen]

Just now, onekidanddone said:

Had my second Pfizer on Tuesday and I was sluggish and achy all day yesterday. I probably had a fever and I should have been in bed (however I’m an idiot and felt I couldn’t take time off because we were short staffed by this week). 

I feel much better today 

I’m glad you’re feeling better-I’m still working remotely and took a sick day today.  The fever kicked my ass.  

[onekidanddone]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Because the focus is on the rights of the offender and the safety of children.

L

 

2 minutes ago, CinnaJen said:

I’m glad you’re feeling better-I’m still working remotely and took a sick day today.  The fever kicked my ass.  

I should have taken a sick day, but as I said I’m an idiot. 

[Marissap]

5 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

You don’t even have to be raised in an authoritarian family.  Many kids get nervous about saying anything bad about their parents.  My ex and I made many mistakes, but one thing we didn’t do was tell our children to lie or conceal information about the family.  We were, on the whole, a loving, accepting household where kids could (and did) speak up and where corporal punishment as such was not used.

Our daughter was 10 when CPS called her out of class to ask about some child abuse allegations against us.  The claim was that my then-husband had abused our then 6-year-old son.   My daughter had recently read a book about a family being split up and sent to foster care by CPS and her imagination went bonkers, so she froze.  She didn’t want to talk to these people.  She answered only “yes,” “no,” and “I don’t know.” 

Needless to say, her reluctance to speak increased the presumption that my then-husband was guilty.  He was not.  The allegation was built on a “bruise” on our son’s cheek that the doctor confirmed was an allergic reaction to a bug bite.  We got it straightened out within a day.  But it was definitely scary, and it also showed how even a kid who has nothing serious to hide about her family may be terrified to speak.  

How much more likely is it that children brought up like the Duggarlings will not speak?  The best we can hope is that they will be interviewed in a context and in a way that they will relax and tell the interviewer things they don’t realize are “bad” but which will let the interviewers know that something is wrong.

(Inside the spoiler I put the full story of the incident for those who want to know how the CPS investigation happened in the first place and how it was resolved.  It is in the spoiler because adds nothing to my argument and takes up space.  There should be no triggers unless violence against tape players and yelling disturbs you. ?)

  Reveal hidden contents

The full story is that 6-year-old son had been rebellious about bedtime the previous night.  There had been a lot of shouting because he insisted on playing story-telling tapes loudly when he was supposed to be listening to soothing music quietly. Father was furious and took away the tape player. Kid went at father to get tape player at which point angry father threw tape player against the wall. At some point after this, kid (expected now to go to sleep without stories or music) kept getting out of bed and wandering elsewhere in the house.  Dad would grab him and carry him (fighting) back to bed.  That was the extent of the “abuse.”  

Through this I was “helping” daughter with homework and would occasionally shout at the kid also.  I think (but am not sure) that after I finished with my daughter I intervened and the by then exhausted 6-yr-old let me put him to bed and rub his back to get him to sleep.  This is what happened more than once.  Our son suffered from ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) but had not been diagnosed yet.

The next morning as we were getting in the car to drive to school, I noticed a new redness on his cheek (it had not been there the night before).  I didn’t think twice about it.   Kids who are running around out doors get bites and scratches all the time.

Apparently, his first grade teacher saw the redness and concluded it was a bruise.  How she concluded this I do not know because it was getting pinker as the day progressed, which is more like an irritation of the skin than a bruise. (She hated us because we had asked to have our son move out of her class.)  Anyway, she took him aside and asked question after question and finally the kid said something along the lines of, “Maybe it happened when my dad was holding me down in bed after he threw my tape player against the wall.”   That was enough for a CPS call from the school. 

The CPS guy who interviewed us that evening said that there had not seemed to be much to go on in the story but that our daughter freezing the way she did was a reason he had to investigate further.  Husband was entirely cleared even before I took kid to the doctor to look at inflamed cheek which the CPS guy agreed was not looking like a bruise at all.  

 

Ok I’m sorry, this is not funny but I am laughing.  This is definitely something that would have happened to me growing up. One year in DARE class in 4th grade  (for those that don’t know it was a thing in public schools in the 80s and 90s called drug abuse resistance education) I asked if it was a bad thing if my mom had wine every single day. She got a call that evening lol. Almost 30 years later she still brings it up. 
my sister used to keep the child abuse phone number on her dresser and tell my mom she would call if our mom made her do things she didn’t want to. 
 

we were total shits. 

[Satan'sFortress]

I checked with my headship to ask if he'd be OK leaving me alone with Josh every day. He said no. 

[FilleMondaine]

45 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

This is going to get stuck when the thread bumps but I'll go ahead.

I believe this (pedophilia/molestation) in general is a tough subject for the board because

1. We do have a lot of survivors

 

Survivor here--

It helped so much to know, and I will share it here (maybe on boards elsewhere)

The 18th-month old has survived, is older now. There are health problems, and there is also support for her. Her sister/cousin is alive, too. I hope that this information brings healing to others like it did for me.

[sabretooth]

2 minutes ago, anniebgood said:

To the hockey people, at least your teams breathe. 

I'm not sure my Sabres are breathing. They're on the sixth goalie of the year. We've cycled through Swedish Goalie, Blind Goalie, Bad Goalie, Young Finnish Goalie, AHL Journeyman Goalie and now Out of Hockey for A Year Goalie. The backup goalie is Paid Tryout Goalie. Thank god there are only three games left.