Dillards 83: WTG JILL - PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!

[Ms. Brightside]

I have to agree with @just_ordinary on this one... I think if JB was telling potential suitors about the molestations, it would just play into the narrative of “damaged goods.” It’s the girls’ story to tell, and while none of them are realistically in a position to say anything prior to marriage, what would it change? In this cult, a man (or boy, let’s be honest) might leave over it because they’re “impure,” which is absurd and just victimizes them all over again. JB telling anyone the girls are courting/engaged to just reinforces the idea that it’s something shameful that must be disclosed because it affects the “value” of the daughter. I absolutely believe it’s not his right to disclose anything about his daughters’ histories, because 1) it’s their story to tell when and how they see fit, and 2) the way they were raised means it would affect their futures in a new negative way, when it absolutely shouldn’t (it would be nice if telling a future husband had a positive effect, and they could get actual counseling in their futures, but the odds of that seem low). 
 

Anna, on the other hand, did have a right to know. It’s something that could very much have affected her future if it got out, could affect her children, and says something about the character of the person she was about to marry. The girls were victims, not perpetrators who could make a similarly bad choice again in the future. It’s not JB’s place to tell anyone private things about their lives. 
 

Edited to add: I don’t believe that JB would have disclosed this information, and if he didn’t, I‘m positive his motivation wasn’t to be kind and fair to the girls... I just agree with the end result. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Ms. Brightside

[SassyPants]

But in JB’s world, he is the person in charge and the spokesperson for all when it comes to relationships. In the past, he has made potential suitors fill out questionnaires covering a wide array of topics. He wanted to know everything about these potential ILs, up to and including whether they would use a credit card to pay for needed car repairs. If he expected in-depth information about potential suitors, how could he possibly reconcile withholding such information about matters that happened within HIS own home and under HIS   watch? This makes no sense to me. I get to know everything about you, yet I get to withhold information about the situation you might entering. How dishonest and disingenuous is that behavior? Also, didn’t the Duggars believe that all was forgiven and that Josh was healed? If so, why hide it ? Couldn’t the disclosure been framed within sin and forgiveness and Christian tenets? 
 

Full disclosure, I think JB is slimy, and don’t trust him one bit- 

[Pecansforeveryone]

JB also had to have known this could come out. He knew it had resulted in at least one canceled tv appearance with Oprah. He bears responsibility to get ahead of that information with the suitors though ultimately it should be the victim's decision to disclose or not. 

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

JB also had to have known this could come out. He knew it had resulted in at least one canceled tv appearance with Oprah. He bears responsibility to get ahead of that information with the suitors though ultimately it should be the victim's decision to disclose or not. 

And how awful would that be if you did not protect your daughters, disallowed them from being educated, forming friendships outside your home, developing age appropriate skills, including their own individuality or voice, yet expect them to troubleshoot sharing information of this nature with a potential or actual spouse? There are no words to express how horrible this would be for such sheltered, stunted young women.

 

ETA- Since JB was confident enough to believe that this sin was buried, it makes me wonder what other skeletons there are in the Duggar closet.

Edited February 26, 2020 by SassyPants

[Alisamer]

5 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I am always a bit surprised by comments like this. 
JB has no right to speak about it in my opinion. If Jill wants to tell her husband or anyone else about the abuse she suffered it is completely her decision. Same for how much she wants to reveal. 
Acting as if that was up to JB diminished the rights of the Duggar daughters even more. It puts them again in a passive victim role. 
Everyone involved should have gotten treatment and help but I think it’s up to the girls how they want to go on with it.

I get what you're saying, and in a NORMAL family that would absolutely be the truth. 

But this is the Duggars. The ones who nearly freaked out when Jill front-hugged Derrick before marriage, despite it being on-camera, in public, and with both her parents right there. The ones who made a huge, public deal about their kids being "pure" and having their first ever kisses and sexual experiences of any kind only after marriage.

I'm NOT saying that Jill was no longer "pure" or anything disgusting like that. But she had no opportunity whatsoever to process what had happened to her. She had no counseling that we are aware of, it was all "he's forgiven, forget it ever happened".  AND she had no opportunity to ever be alone with Derrick until their wedding night. 

I personally think that what they should have done (within their stupid rules) is talk honestly to Jill about what happened, then give her and Derrick some privacy (within sight, but not hearing distance, because of their rules) to talk alone if she chose to share it with him. A wedding night is not the time anyone wants to be discussing something like that for the first time, IMO. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Alisamer said:

AND she had no opportunity to ever be alone with Derrick until their wedding night. 

Forget the sex stuff for a minute, how freaking dangerous is this?  They marry people they don't even really know as they've never had a private conversation out of earshot of a chaperone.

Posters here have a better chance of getting to know each other as people than these guys do before they marry.  It's insane to me.

[feministxtian]

6 hours ago, CheeseGirl said:

f the worksheet said show your work, then show your work, even if you don’t need it. School is about more than getting right answers, it’s also about social skills, how to behave and interact with each other. There’s going to be times in life, in your future career, that you will need to read the directions and follow the rules. You need to know how to behave in group-settings, you need to know when to listen and when to wait your turn. Public schools gives us these things and they shouldn’t be undervalued or dismissed to focus solely on right answers on tests. Teachers can only do so much if the attitudes at home aren’t on the same page. 

That's some bullshit right there...college? They don't give a fuck how you got the answer. Social Skills? How the hell can you learn "social skills" when it's like a riot on a daily basis, bomb threats, gangs? You're too busy trying to avoid attention so you don't get your ass beat. Bullying, semi-illiterate teachers, fuck that noise...I can't tell you how many teachers' notes I sent back with the grammar corrected. I talked to the teachers in my family and they all sort of shrugged their shoulders...

[FunDieDumDum]

I think it’s fantastic news like everyone else, but I’m wondering about something which I haven’t seen anyone else mention yet...

Isn’t this an unusual time to enroll a child in Kindergarten? Doesn’t that normally occur in August or September? I guess it’s better than waiting more than half a year, but why the strange timing?

A few people have mentioned Jill being overwhelmed - is there something concrete we know on this point, which could be the reason for it? I’ve only followed the Dillards off and on lately (too many fundies, too little spare time LOL), so maybe there are some things I don’t know. 

Basically, while Kindergarten for Izzy is a great thing, I hope everything is otherwise okay with them.

[SassyPants]

This is what I think about school, any school. Sure there’s academics to be learned in order to become a contributing member of society, but there are so many other skills that need to be obtained along the way. First, there’s listening to and respecting the direction of an adult other than mom or dad. Next there’s learning the skill of artfully and respectfully asking a question or challenging the person of authority, which in the classroom is the teacher(s). It’s about forming relationships and learning how to successfully work within a group of people, such an important life skill. It’s learning how to accept responsibility for your own behaviors, that mama can’t fix everything and that life isn’t necessarily fair. It’s learning and integrating the notion that you will not always be the best, the brightest, the strongest or the prettiest, but that your limitations do not define you. One should also learn that life is hard and requires sustained effort over a long time. 

One of the saddest things that I’ve ever seen in the workplace is people who do not know how to work with or get along with other people. IMO, somewhere along the way, an important lesson was not learned.

By my standards Trump is obviously a failure.

Just now, FunDieDumDum said:

I think it’s fantastic news like everyone else, but I’m wondering about something which I haven’t seen anyone else mention yet...

Isn’t this an unusual time to enroll a child in Kindergarten? Doesn’t that normally occur in August or September? I guess it’s better than waiting more than half a year, but why the strange timing?

A few people have mentioned Jill being overwhelmed - is there something concrete we know on this point, which could be the reason for it? I’ve only followed the Dillards off and on lately (too many fundies, too little spare time LOL), so maybe there are some things I don’t know. 

Basically, while Kindergarten for Izzy is a great thing, I hope everything is otherwise okay with them.

Nope, you enroll now for a start date of August or September.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, FunDieDumDum said:

I think it’s fantastic news like everyone else, but I’m wondering about something which I haven’t seen anyone else mention yet...

Isn’t this an unusual time to enroll a child in Kindergarten? Doesn’t that normally occur in August or September? I guess it’s better than waiting more than half a year, but why the strange timing?

A few people have mentioned Jill being overwhelmed - is there something concrete we know on this point, which could be the reason for it? I’ve only followed the Dillards off and on lately (too many fundies, too little spare time LOL), so maybe there are some things I don’t know. 

Basically, while Kindergarten for Izzy is a great thing, I hope everything is otherwise okay with them.

No - it's common to register this time of year for next fall.  Schools need to have a count of the kids to expect in the incoming grades.  

[Alisamer]

40 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Forget the sex stuff for a minute, how freaking dangerous is this?  They marry people they don't even really know as they've never had a private conversation out of earshot of a chaperone.

Posters here have a better chance of getting to know each other as people than these guys do before they marry.  It's insane to me.

This is very important. They go from literally never having ever been alone together or even spoken without someone else listening in, to living together, in one day. You know full well they haven't had the opportunity to discuss anything deep beyond religion, which they presumably agree on for the most part before they're even allowed to "court".

It's like moving in with a college roommate, only FOREVER. And you're expected to go make babies with them. 

That's absolutely insane.

I've said before that I wouldn't even consider marrying someone I'd never traveled with at least once. They have no idea how the other person handles stress, deals with the unexpected, how they act when they're tired, how they act when someone disagrees with them... along with all the simpler stuff like whether they snore or wipe the spots off the mirror or remember to put the toilet seat down. 

Just casual hanging out always with someone over their shoulders, then BAM. Married. Forever.

[FunDieDumDum]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

No - it's common to register this time of year for next fall.  Schools need to have a count of the kids to expect in the incoming grades.  

Thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression that he was enrolled and already starting now rather than in the fall. Haven’t been able to watch the video yet, can’t do the audio at the moment without disturbing others.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, FunDieDumDum said:

Thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression that he was enrolled and already starting now rather than in the fall. Haven’t been able to watch the video yet, can’t do the audio at the moment without disturbing others.

I don't usually watch their videos, but I did this one.  It was great to see Jill buoyed with enthusiasm and Izzy SO excited.  

This one warmed my cold, cynical heart.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

30 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

That's some bullshit right there...college? They don't give a fuck how you got the answer. Social Skills? How the hell can you learn "social skills" when it's like a riot on a daily basis, bomb threats, gangs? You're too busy trying to avoid attention so you don't get your ass beat. Bullying, semi-illiterate teachers, fuck that noise...I can't tell you how many teachers' notes I sent back with the grammar corrected. I talked to the teachers in my family and they all sort of shrugged their shoulders...

I'm a uni lecturer and I assure you I do care how students get to their answer. There may be multiple ways to get there but they have to show their work.

As for bullying and low teacher literacy in schools, depends on the school.

Or maybe you were being sarcastic and I misunderstood.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I've said before that I wouldn't even consider marrying someone I'd never traveled with at least once. They have no idea how the other person handles stress, deals with the unexpected, how they act when they're tired, how they act when someone disagrees with them... along with all the simpler stuff like whether they snore or wipe the spots off the mirror or remember to put the toilet seat down. 

That's a really great rule of thumb...I'm going to pass that on to my kids.  I've always stressed how important it is to know the real person, beyond the infatuation, but I never thought of travel being such a great litmus test.

[Bad Wolf]

I remember when Derick put his arm around Jill in Nepal, and JB got between them. Seriously? They were going to have sex right there in the street if he hadn't intervened? I don't understand, they raise their children, then can't trust them to even have dinner in a restaurant unchaperoned. Too many contradictions in their life style.

[feministxtian]

1 minute ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

I'm a uni lecturer and I assure you I do care how students get to their answer. There may be multiple ways to get there but they have to show their work.

As for bullying and low teacher literacy in schools, depends on the school.

Or maybe you were being sarcastic and I misunderstood.

When I was in college (and even now, with 3 kids in college), not one of their professors in a math class gives a damn how they get the answer as long as its the right one. 

My kids went to school in Newport News VA. Check the stats on it, specifically Warwick High School. 

I would expect a teacher to be able to write/spell things correctly. Look, I'm just a dumbass redneck with a 2 year tech degree and I could write better than these teachers. 

The schools are a HUGE part of the problem...the parents are the other part. And the kids who are out of the ordinary lose out. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

They were going to have sex right there in the street if he hadn't intervened?

Of course they were.  Aren't you a heathen like the rest of us?  Don't you remember introducing your date to your family and if they put their arm around you you had no choice but to fling your clothes off and have wild sex with total abandon in front of your parents and maybe grandma?

Isn't that how all of us heathens date - hence their need to protect themselves from us?

[Mlissmartin]

37 minutes ago, FunDieDumDum said:

I think it’s fantastic news like everyone else, but I’m wondering about something which I haven’t seen anyone else mention yet...

Isn’t this an unusual time to enroll a child in Kindergarten? Doesn’t that normally occur in August or September? I guess it’s better than waiting more than half a year, but why the strange timing?

A few people have mentioned Jill being overwhelmed - is there something concrete we know on this point, which could be the reason for it? I’ve only followed the Dillards off and on lately (too many fundies, too little spare time LOL), so maybe there are some things I don’t know. 

Basically, while Kindergarten for Izzy is a great thing, I hope everything is otherwise okay with them.

Actually our county in Virginia is just getting ready to do their "Kindergarten round up" which is K enrollment/assessment time for the next school year. I believe in the next couple of weeks.

[Glasgowghirl]

I always felt Derick saw a father figure in Jim Bob when they met and as a young man grieving the loss of one parent and frightened of losing another. Jim Bob may have appeared to him as a perfect family man, Jim Bob saw in Derick a nice Christian man who is doing missionary work and also has a degree. I don't think Derick misled Jim Bob either but I believe he was misled by Jim Bob about the abuse and other things. Jill realising how her parent's failed her in many ways and she is taking small steps to give her sons at least a good education. I hope it paves the way for some of her cousins to go to public school for even some of their schooling. 

[Idlewild]

If DD ever does write his tell all I wonder what he will have to say about the TV interview Jill & Jessa gave about the molestation.

That could potentially be the most damaging news about JB - it’s dreadful enough he didn’t protect his daughters or allow the molestation to be dealt with properly for both victims and perpetrator, but if it transpires Jill was made to appear on TV and minimise it against her will/wishes there is no redemption for him. However that doesn’t explain why DD was accepting donations from Josh and making a special video to thank him.

[JDuggs]

12 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

When I was in college (and even now, with 3 kids in college), not one of their professors in a math class gives a damn how they get the answer as long as its the right one. 

Not sure what you mean here: they didn’t have to show any work, just an answer, or show some unorthodox method to get the correct answer?

My husband teaches college statistics and when I see what he’s grading, work is always shown.

I used to teach middle school math. For some kids, it was very difficult to show their work because it was “all in their heads.” I tried to get them to articulate what their steps were to solving a problem and then try to help them get in on paper in math terms. I would tell them that they might never need to use algebra in real life, but they might have to explain a complex process to someone. We were solving math problems to learn how to communicate. I loved seeing the variety of ways kids’ brains worked.

Also, every kid eventually gets an answer wrong. If there’s no work shown, the teacher has no clue what part the student misunderstood. And cheating. A lot of kids cheat.

 

 

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

Not sure what you mean here: they didn’t have to show any work, just an answer, or show some unorthodox method to get the correct answer?

My husband teaches college statistics and when I see what he’s grading, work is always shown.

I used to teach middle school math. For some kids, it was very difficult to show their work because it was “all in their heads.” I tried to get them to articulate what their steps were to solving a problem and then try to help them get in on paper in math terms. I would tell them that they might never need to use algebra in real life, but they might have to explain a complex process to someone. We were solving math problems to learn how to communicate. I loved seeing the variety of ways kids’ brains worked.

Also, every kid eventually gets an answer wrong. If there’s no work shown, the teacher has no clue what part the student misunderstood. And cheating. A lot of kids cheat.

 

 

Full disclosure, I do not have a mental Math brain. I think you just clarified why I had so much trouble in Math (I’m old and was taught Math by nuns in the 60s and early 70s). I’m now wondering if the nuns just cut out step when they were teaching because they did not know how to Verbally communicate what they had already solved for in their heads. This makes so much sense, because as long as the steps where clearly provided/ shown, I would get the concepts, but then a number would appear and the teacher would be unable to explain how that number was derived. This about drove me insane in HS Math. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Full disclosure, I do not have a mental Math brain. I think you just clarified why I had so much trouble in Math (I’m old and was taught Math by nuns in the 60s and early 70s). I’m now wondering if the nuns just cut out step when they were teaching because they did not know how to Verbally communicate what they had already solved for in their heads. This makes so much sense, because as long as the steps where clearly provided/ shown, I would get the concepts, but then a number would appear and the teacher would be unable to explain how that number was derived. This about drove me insane in HS Math. 

This is a real thing.  My kids struggled with math, one in particular had severe and pervasive learning disabilities and math was an absolute nightmare for him.  I was really good at helping with homework, explaining concepts, etc. except when it came to math. 

I do a lot of math in my head and it's super easy to forget to explain that stuff so the person you're teaching is missing key components.  Knowing stuff is one thing, being able to teach it is an entirely different skill set and a real gift.

I thank God for the teachers who were able to do this, and the tutors I arranged as I knew when it was best for them that I outsourced.  

 

[SassyPants]

51 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Of course they were.  Aren't you a heathen like the rest of us?  Don't you remember introducing your date to your family and if they put their arm around you you had no choice but to fling your clothes off and have wild sex with total abandon in front of your parents and maybe grandma?

Isn't that how all of us heathens date - hence their need to protect themselves from us?

Yet not protecting themselves from what lurks within their own home. Such a skewed approach.