Dillards 83: WTG JILL - PUBLIC SCHOOL!!!

[SassyPants]

There is no doubt in my mind that the news of the molestations hit Dereck hard. I tend to believe that JB was not fully upfront with these incidents prior to any of their kids getting married. One would think that someone like Dereck, educated, traveled, Boy Scout (Eagle?) might possess a bit of critical thinking, and if had he known of Josh’s and JB’s behaviors, perhaps he would have been less likely to quit WM in pursuit of FT work with TLC, especially if he considered himself a volunteer.

I do think that Dereck met Jill at a very vulnerable time in his life. It’s too bad. I also wonder if his father was still alive or had his mother not been acutely ill and fighting for her life, if DD and JD would have ever met, let alone married.

I also wonder how much a healthy Cathy has grounded Dereck and put him back on balanced path. If so, I hope her inspiration has included a talk about gainful, family sustaining employment and responsible family planning. Maybe she nudged D and J to enroll ID in PS? 

Edited February 25, 2020 by SassyPants

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, LillyP said:

I think it's important to remember that it's not uncommon for people who experience loss or a traumatic event to double down and start searching for something. He was in college when his dad died, and I bet he turned to faith and when that happened he found the Duggars

I agree - and at about the same time his mom was battling cancer.  I lost my parents within a couple of months of each other when I was in my twenties and while I didn't get overly religious I was desperately searching for ways to cope for a while.  

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I tend to believe that JB was not fully upfront with these incidents prior to any of their kids getting married.

In a family with a healthy dynamic it would never be JBs place to inform any SOs of what happened.  The women would tell their own stories to their partners in their own time.

The place where I think JB and Michelle were obligated to step in and be completely upfront was with Anna.  Because of the potential risk to their future children you can't rely on a child molester to be forthright about his crimes.  I give her no pass since she kept having children after knowing the truth, but I don't for a second believe that pre-marriage Anna was given accurate information to make an informed decision.  

[SassyPants]

18 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree - and at about the same time his mom was battling cancer.  I lost my parents within a couple of months of each other when I was in my twenties and while I didn't get overly religious I was desperately searching for ways to cope for a while.  

In a family with a healthy dynamic it would never be JBs place to inform any SOs of what happened.  The women would tell their own stories to their partners in their own time.

The place where I think JB and Michelle were obligated to step in and be completely upfront was with Anna.  Because of the potential risk to their future children you can't rely on a child molester to be forthright about his crimes.  I give her no pass since she kept having children after knowing the truth, but I don't for a second believe that pre-marriage Anna was given accurate information to make an informed decision.  

Yep. So many of these folks’ issues/dysfunctions are a direct result of JB and M’s decisions and tactics during the kids formative years (isolation, lack of education and individuality, lack of developmentally appropriate experiences, an unrealistic parent to child ratio, failure to model healthy work practices, muted emotions...). Since very few healthy practices were utilized in the TTH, and in the face of this skewed, patriarchal system, it was JB’s responsibility to share this information.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Since very few healthy practices were utilized in the TTH, and in the face of this skewed, patriarchal system, it was JB’s responsibility to share this information.

Yep - that's what happens when you strip your children of any autonomy so they are bereft even in adulthood.  If M and JB want all the power then they need to assume all the responsibility and blame as well.

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Yep - that's what happens when you strip your children of any autonomy so they are bereft even in adulthood.  If M and JB want all the power then they need to assume all the responsibility and blame as well.

To me, this is the trickiest issue when we talk about the Duggars: how much leeway should the 2nd generation be given in terms of rising up, integrating what happened to them along the way AND THEN, making better choices for their own children. When do those 2 generation Duggars (and others) have to assume the responsibility and be held accountable for the decisions that they, especially as spouses and parents, are making in their own homes? If you’re a dysfunctional mess yourself, can you truly be held accountable? Obviously, the best of all options is to not be parented by JB or M, and in the absence of such, to not be married or parenting if you’re a dysfunctional mess, but we don’t live in a perfect, fundie free world.

[Alisamer]

29 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

In a family with a healthy dynamic it would never be JBs place to inform any SOs of what happened.  The women would tell their own stories to their partners in their own time.

This is yet another reason that courting is a terrible, terrible idea. In a normal "worldly" family, the couple would have spent time with each other alone, spoken to each other on the phone without anyone listening in, and have gotten to know and trust each other (hopefully) well before becoming engaged. 

With the Duggars, the girls had no opportunity at ALL to share what happened to them, even if they wanted to. The family had a "don't discuss it, it's all forgiven" policy, and no doubt any mention of it to the potential grooms would have been strongly frowned upon. The Duggar parents absolutely should have done the informing, since they made it impossible for the daughters to share anything personal at all with their husbands-to-be.

Also - way to go Jill!

[nokidsmom]

14 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

With the Duggars, the girls had no opportunity at ALL to share what happened to them, even if they wanted to. The family had a "don't discuss it, it's all forgiven" policy, and no doubt any mention of it to the potential grooms would have been strongly frowned upon. The Duggar parents absolutely should have done the informing, since they made it impossible for the daughters to share anything personal at all with their husbands-to-be.

I agree with this.   The family system was set up so that JB called the shots when it came to finding and vetting husbands.   The girls looked to Daddy to take care of things, their courtship activities were tightly controlled and furthermore it would never occur to them that they could share anything outside of the family approved narrative even if there was an opportunity for them to do so.    So I agree that JB and J'chelle should have informed the prospective grooms considering the screwed up family system they imposed on their daughters.   That Derick might be angry at JB for not informing him would be justified in this case.  

Getting back to Jill, I am glad to hear that Israel will be going to PS.  I am sort of not surprised namely because Derick's education background was normal and he had to be appalled to realize how poorly educated Jill was.  When they got married I didn't think he had any idea, because their courtship was so short.  Putting aside for the moment that he can be a jerk, and just thinking of him as a dad, he would not want that sort of poor education for his kids.  So if he is behind the decision, that's a very responsible decision to make.  

 

[viii]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I do think that Dereck met Jill at a very vulnerable time in his life. It’s too bad. I also wonder if his father was still alive or had his mother not been acutely ill and fighting for her life, if DD and JD would have ever met, let alone married.

My guess is no. Even with a father who was passed away, I think it was facing his mother's mortality that caused Derick to be so quick to jump into a marriage. The quick courting/engagement/wedding scenario wasn't common to him, he wasn't raised fundie. But I think the prospect of his mother dying and being alone in the world made him go along with things he otherwise wouldn't have. 

[nokidsmom]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the news of the molestations hit Dereck hard. I tend to believe that JB was not fully upfront with these incidents prior to any of their kids getting married. One would think that someone like Dereck, educated, traveled, Boy Scout (Eagle?) might possess a bit of critical thinking, and if had he known of Josh’s and JB’s behaviors, perhaps he would have been less likely to quit WM in pursuit of FT work with TLC, especially if he considered himself a volunteer.

Wanting to touch on this, I remember Derick left WM around the time of Joshgate 1.0, and IIRC timing was such that he likely left before the scandal broke.  I often wondered that if the scandal broke earlier, he might have realized what a devil's bargain the family dog and pony show really was and therefore might have reconsidered holding onto that WM job.

ETA: When I see Derick lashing out at his wife's family, I agree that he did not know beforehand and it hit very hard.  As one of the sons in law with a more normal background, he would see it for the screwed up business it was.  And he's likely witnessed firsthand as his wife processes more fully what happened which made it all the more difficult. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by nokidsmom

[Eternalbluepearl]

17 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Maybe Jill realizes that had dad's "umbrella of protection" did nothing to protect her or her sisters.

Holy cow! This sentence actually floored me. It is just so damn true. My mind is blown. All that talk about protection...it wasn't real. *stares off*

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I'm loving the thought that Jim-Bob picked a guy for Jill who is sending his kids to public school.

[nokidsmom]

4 minutes ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

I'm loving the thought that Jim-Bob picked a guy for Jill who is sending his kids to public school

Yep.  I remember years ago, there was discussion here on whether any of the Duggar daughters would go fundie-lite / mainstream via marriage.   I remember saying is that all it takes is for the guy to say all the right things to JB who approves then things change after the marriage.  Derick did that.  And no, I don't think he lied, besides JB would sniff out that sort of thing immediately.   It was that Derick was going through a phase (grief, fearful of losing his mother = going fundie to find answers)  where he was in the right place and in the right frame of mind to genuinely pull it off, only to get out of that phase plus finding out not all the glitters in Duggarland was gold. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

perhaps he would have been less likely to quit WM in pursuit of FT work with TLC, especially if he considered himself a volunteer.

I think he actually quit to work for SOS Ministries, which did pay him, and encouraged him to grift support from others. TLC liked the idea of that storyline, and Jim Bob probably offered financial support, supposedly to aid them in ministry, but actually to make sure they had a better storyline and were available for filming. 

[SassyPants]

19 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I think he actually quit to work for SOS Ministries, which did pay him, and encouraged him to grift support from others. TLC liked the idea of that storyline, and Jim Bob probably offered financial support, supposedly to aid them in ministry, but actually to make sure they had a better storyline and were available for filming. 

I always thought that TLC and SOS were in cahoots/agreement on that decision. TLC would defer some of the costs for the Dillards to hang out in  CA with the other missionaries, and in return footage would be obtained for the show., and generate income for JB.

Edited February 25, 2020 by SassyPants

[Eternalbluepearl]

This is off topic but still about the Dillards. When Derick and Jill got engaged, a guy played a song during it that went something like "I know god was thinking of me when he made you." And it always struck me as so self-centered. Carry on...

Edited February 25, 2020 by Eternalbluepearl

[SassyPants]

I just had another thought about Jill and Derek. Jill is the first Duggar who has had to experience her husband being away from the family during the day in a place where the family can’t go hangout, and who is also likely very busy and not always available during non-school or work hours either. Jill IS actually a SAHM and housewife who IS actually shouldering the burden, and  IS responsible for the home and kids the majority of the time. I am glad that Jill has friends and Amy as role models because she really is stepping out into unchartered territory for a Duggar. 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

8 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I just had another thought about Jill and Derek. Jill is the first Duggar who has had to experience her husband being away from the family during the day in a place where the family can’t go hangout, and who is also likely very busy and not always available during non-school or work hours either. Jill IS actually a SAHM and housewife who IS actually shouldering the burden, and  IS responsible for the home and kids the majority of the time. I am glad that Jill has friends and Amy as role models because she really is stepping out into unchartered territory for a Duggar. 

Not totally. Jim-Bob had the car wrecker service--went and towed cars. He was also out doing real estate deals  and once they moved off the car lot he was away at the car lot.

[SassyPants]

8 minutes ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

Not totally. Jim-Bob had the car wrecker service--went and towed cars. He was also out doing real estate deals  and once they moved off the car lot he was away at the car lot.

Correct me if I am wrong, wasn’t Michelle also actively and physically involved in those businesses? Also, I’m sure I read somewhere that JB Duggar was known for bringing his kids to work when he was in state government.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I also don't believe JB held himself to any strict 9 to 5 schedule, 5 days a week. As shocking as it might be, I think JB might have been lazy, undisciplined, and doing the bare minimum to get by. 

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I also don't believe JB held himself to any strict 9 to 5 schedule, 5 days a week. As shocking as it might be, I think JB might have been lazy, undisciplined, and doing the bare minimum to get by. 

No freaking way, complete sarcasm! And you know why? Because he had too many kids and was tapped out.

[TheWayTheWorldWorks]

Wow! I cannot believe I missed this in real time! I was buried in the old S'Morton archives when the ferrets found me to break the news and bring much needed supplies. Super happy for those boys! 

[grandmadugger]

I think Cathy getting healthy was the best thing that has happened to Jill & Derrick. Derrick was not in a good head space when he got married. No one is when someone who they love is facing death. I think Derrick realized pretty quickly that Jill had a fucked up childhood even if it took him some time to process it. To find out in the first year of marriage that your wife was molested, she had to hide in the bathroom to eat, that she’s not cut out for the life you planned, and that she’s woefully under educated had to have been a huge shock. The Dillards started making changes as Cathy got better. It might have been as simple as “You weren’t raised like that.” Or long serious conversations about their life. I am just happy that Jill’s kids will get to have experiences that she could only dream of and then feel guilty about. 

[just_ordinary]

18 hours ago, SassyPants said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the news of the molestations hit Dereck hard. I tend to believe that JB was not fully upfront with these incidents prior to any of their kids getting married. One would think that someone like Dereck, educated, traveled, Boy Scout (Eagle?) might possess a bit of critical thinking, and if had he known of Josh’s and JB’s behaviors, perhaps he would have been less likely to quit WM in pursuit of FT work with TLC, especially if he considered himself a volunteer.

[...]

I am always a bit surprised by comments like this. 
JB has no right to speak about it in my opinion. If Jill wants to tell her husband or anyone else about the abuse she suffered it is completely her decision. Same for how much she wants to reveal. 
Acting as if that was up to JB diminished the rights of the Duggar daughters even more. It puts them again in a passive victim role. 
Everyone involved should have gotten treatment and help but I think it’s up to the girls how they want to go on with it.

[CheeseGirl]

On 2/22/2020 at 12:26 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

They’ve been so lax with the youngest 4 daughters compared to the oldest 4 daughters. They are already doomed to rebel in my opinion. They weren’t raised by JB and Michelle exclusively. I’m not saying all the girls will escape fundie land. But I’m guessing at least 2 will. They’ve been ignored so much that I can’t imagine there is as much of a strong hold on them compared to their oldest sisters. 

My money is on Jennifer and Josie. Jennifer has been over it since day 1 and Josie has a curious, inquisitive nature. She questions things and I don’t think she’s going to take ‘because, Jesus’ as the answer to everything. As long as her questioning spirit isn’t crushed, she’s going to realize that something smells fishy here and it’s not the BBQ tuna.

can someone remind me who Johannah’s buddy team captain/sister mom was? I think that will give a good idea of which way she goes. 

On 2/24/2020 at 11:18 PM, feministxtian said:

On the teacher meet & greet days, I used to introduce myself to the teachers and apologize in advance for them having to attempt to educate my kids and keep them from killing themselves. Yes, I liked when they were someone else's problem for 6-7 hours a day. What I DID NOT LIKE was the teachers telling me to "instill the importance of education" in my children. There's a helluva lot more to education than sitting in a classroom. If the teachers could not entice my children in the classroom, that was totally not my problem. I had many go-rounds with teachers and administrators over this. Kids would ace the standardized tests but be flunking the classroom. 

I have friends who are teachers and my MIL is a retired teacher...most of them are looking for a way out of education. My SIL is finishing a Master's in something so he can also avoid attempting to teach algebra to a bunch of kids who don't give a shit. 

In my youngest's high school, I doubt there was any serious learning going on, it was more like being a zookeeper and practicing crowd control. He dropped out 1/2 way through 10th grade. None of them graduated from HS, yet they've all excelled in college. 

it’s unfortunate that our public schools are not given the resources that would allow teachers to try and reach those kids who seem otherwise uninterested. There’s too much standardized testing and reliance on those and only those results for determining success.  This reminds me of story my MIL told me about DH from late elementary/early middle school. DH received several 0’s on math assignments for not showing his work despite having the right answer.  MIL was not going to have that and went into the school to give the teacher a talking to; she obviously didn’t realize the unique genius of DH’s math abilities. My MIL is domineering and got the teacher to give him credit. (I asked DH about this and he had no memory, but wouldn’t put using a calculator and lying about it when caught past him- hence not showing work).  This story makes me sad and upset because the only thing my MIL  saw was a right answer is the only thing that matters. I wish the teacher had let the 0’s stand. This was not DH’s first rodeo, he had been in school long enough to follow directions. If the worksheet said show your work, then show your work, even if you don’t need it. School is about more than getting right answers, it’s also about social skills, how to behave and interact with each other. There’s going to be times in life, in your future career, that you will need to read the directions and follow the rules. You need to know how to behave in group-settings, you need to know when to listen and when to wait your turn. Public schools gives us these things and they shouldn’t be undervalued or dismissed to focus solely on right answers on tests. Teachers can only do so much if the attitudes at home aren’t on the same page. 
 

I know there is a rigidness that can accompany academics which can be difficult for children of all ages. Structured environments can feel like a cage to one and support to another.  There are lots of other places besides school where learning to live and interact in a social world can occur. I do not want give the impression that school is the best or only place this can be done. I just think since children spend such a large amount of their lives there it should not be overlooked while ‘right answers on tests’ are the only thing in focus

Edited February 26, 2020 by CheeseGirl
I got trigger happy and submitted before I finished my sentence.

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I am always a bit surprised by comments like this. 
JB has no right to speak about it in my opinion. If Jill wants to tell her husband or anyone else about the abuse she suffered it is completely her decision. Same for how much she wants to reveal. 
Acting as if that was up to JB diminished the rights of the Duggar daughters even more. It puts them again in a passive victim role. 
Everyone involved should have gotten treatment and help but I think it’s up to the girls how they want to go on with it.

Disagree. Prior to marriage, and within that cult, Jill had no autonomy over any facet of her life, including privacy, conversations and anonymity. Now if you’re implying that things should have been different and how the Duggars were raised was totally wrong, agreed, but that’s not the reality. I’m basing my comments on  Jill’s actual reality. In her reality, it was up to JB to disseminate the truth.