Jana 8: Now with Instagram

[Greendoor]

On 2/12/2019 at 11:42 PM, SorenaJ said:

Why anyone would choose (for non-medical reasons) to perform genital mutilation on their newborn baby is beyond me. 

Didn't look to see who down voted your post.  I invite them to consider whether they would circumcise a daughter? 

I doubt it; it's barbaric.  For baby boys and girls.

[church_of_dog]

2 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I've never understood the "he won't look like his dad argument" because . . . how the fuck often are the dad and son going to be comparing penises?!?!  I just really, really, really don't get it!?!?!  I am 50 and never, not once, saw my mother's vulva or vagina (except while being born, I suppose.)  As far as I know, my sons have never seen my husband's penis.  At least certainly not at a time when they were old enough to compare?  What am I missing here?

I am neither male nor a parent, so take this for what it's worth, but I have always assumed the main timeframe when this would matter a lot would be during ages 2-4ish, revolving around potty training, "be a big boy/just like daddy" etc.  

Plus I suspect that even though they're likely not daily occurrences, lots of young boys all the way up to their early/mid teens might have numerous occasions to participate in a communal pee on the side of the road, in the woods, in a sports stadium bathroom urinal, etc.

Not looking like dad in that particular might be subconsciously traumatic just like, say, being the only one of specific hair color in a family, or with/without freckles, or tall/short when everyone else is short/tall, whatever.

I don't have a strong lean on this topic, but I do think expecting a kid to dismiss the difference as insignificant, or outweighed by more intellectual, medical or cultural concerns, underestimates the psychological impact this and similar issues could have on already-insecure kids.  (not saying all kids are insecure but plenty are)

[caitrona]

58 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

Not looking like dad in that particular might be subconsciously traumatic just like, say, being the only one of specific hair color in a family, or with/without freckles, or tall/short when everyone else is short/tall, whatever.

I don't have a strong lean on this topic, but I do think expecting a kid to dismiss the difference as insignificant, or outweighed by more intellectual, medical or cultural concerns, underestimates the psychological impact this and similar issues could have on already-insecure kids.  (not saying all kids are insecure but plenty are)

But again, that's why you talk about Mom wears glasses, Brother has red hair, and when Dad was born, doctors thought it was a good idea to cut off part of the penis because they didn't understand how important it was.  Now we know better, so we didn't do that for you.  

"Subconsciously traumatic" is making a mountain out of a molehill.  And I think it'd be *far* more significant for a boy to find out that his parents knew that circumcision was cosmetic surgery removing a perfectly healthy, functional part of his anatomy and did it ANYWAY so that his penis *might* look more similar to his dad's at some point in the future.

[Cheetah]

A 3 year old's penis doesn't look like a 30 year old's regardless of whether they are both circumsized, uncirc'ed, one of each, etc.  There's no trauma to be had there... you just say, 'well, dad's a grown up and you are a little boy'.   Probably more trauma around the idea that they'll one day be big and hairy, too.  

[Melissa1977]

2 hours ago, Greendoor said:

Didn't look to see who down voted your post.  I invite them to consider whether they would circumcise a daughter? 

I doubt it; it's barbaric.  For baby boys and girls.

While I don't agree with circumscision out of medical reasons, by no means male.and female circumcision can be compared.

Male circumcision does not take sexual pleasure away. Female circumcision is exactly done to avoid women having pleasure. 

Male circumcision is a very little procedure. Female is a major one. It's not only the cut that makes the differences, it's the pain and the consequences for the physical and mental health.

Milions of women are circumcised and traumatized forever and their health put in danger. Milions of men are circumcised and it has no noticeable repercussions in their lives.

 

[Sky with diamonds]

My nephew wasn't cicrumised. His birth was pretty tramatuic in many ways, and my sister decided against getting it done. I think she would have decided against it even if things went well at birth. 

[JillyO]

9 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

While I don't agree with circumscision out of medical reasons, by no means male.and female circumcision can be compared.

Male circumcision does not take sexual pleasure away. Female circumcision is exactly done to avoid women having pleasure. 

Male circumcision is a very little procedure. Female is a major one. It's not only the cut that makes the differences, it's the pain and the consequences for the physical and mental health.

Milions of women are circumcised and traumatized forever and their health put in danger. Milions of men are circumcised and it has no noticeable repercussions in their lives.

Thank you. Equating circumcision to female genital mutilation (FGM) just makes it incredibly easy to dismiss all valid arguments against circumsizing boys because it's such a ridiculous comparison, also it also significantly weakens the case against FGM. If I didn't know how horrifying FGM was, and someone told me that circumcision was just like FGM, I'd be inclined to think that FGM wasn't that bad.

So, to anyone who has compared male circumcision to female genital mutilation, please just stop. There's valid arguments against routinely circumsizing boys. Make your arguments. Leave FGM out of it.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 2/14/2019 at 12:18 PM, just_ordinary said:

I get your point and would have probably made the same decision. But I cannot help but wonder. We do everything to tell our girls that they are good the way they are. That their bodies are good the way they are and that they don’t need to alter them. I know children are vile in this regard and especially at this age but don’t we preach not to give into peer pressure? And don’t we try to raise them not to be bullies? I mean this is not about wearing a certain brand but having an operation to fit in. I would be horrified if my daughter wanted to have an operation to change her body (nose or boobs for example) just to fit in better. Obviously there are always exceptions when the mental health of someone is badly affected. I just think it’s sad that your son felt as if he should do it to not get picked on. It’s nice to hear that he is happy know but that should have been possible without even having to think about that. It must have been a hard situation for your family.

And I am shocked as I always thought boys would body shame in regard to height, hair, voice and muscle. Never ever thought they would pick on each other’s penises. That’s so cruel! And actually kind of weird?

Difference is often the start of teasing. 

[Skeptic]

On 2/11/2019 at 3:15 PM, QuiverDance said:

Oh...I hope you don't mind my asking this question, but I've wondered about this since I know so many Christian families in the U.S. are choosing not to circumcise, if there is a trend with Jewish families as well, especially because of the existential religious significance of circumcision in Judaism.  Do you know many Jewish families choosing not to circumcise?  

I was raised reform Jewish, though now I'm secular. I'm against circumcision, as are many of my Jewish friends. It was a tough pill to swallow at first, and I'll admit it felt like an attack on Jewish identity, but I listened to the differing opinions of some peers in high school and questioned why I held my beliefs. It's one of the many reasons why I disagree with homeschooling as well: had I not had the opportunity to learn from fellow students with different religious and cultural backgrounds, I would be a different person today. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Skeptic

[motelmum]

Neither of my sons is circumcised. Not my body not my decision. 

With my eldest I was a single mum so it was solely my decision. My eldest is soon to turn 25. When he was born paediatricians had just stopped routinely doing them.  It had actually never crossed my mind to get it done to him. I always thought if he needed it done for medical reasons at a later stage then so be it, but I wasn't going to make that decision for my son.

My youngest is only 13 and this time I had to confer with a husband. We discussed it only because my husband is circumcised. I expressed my ani-circumcision stance and he agreed. Having been the recipient of a botched surgery himself he was reluctant to have his son undergo the  operation.  

Both my boys were taught to wash their bodies (as I am sure every other parent has done for their children) and this included care of their uncut penises. There was some concern when my eldest was young that his foreskin was too tight, however the doctor said once he begun to masturbate that it would assist in releasing it. 

I also agree with @Cheetah.

[ati_escapee]

On 2/8/2019 at 11:21 AM, Grace said:

Well, I don't know about EVERY school in Arkansas but some still do paddle. It was on the news during the school walkouts that a couple of kids walked out and chose swats as their punishment. Somewhere down by Little Rock. Conway maybe?

?I looked it up and while that is shocking and wrong, it's also pretty shocking and wrong to generalize an entire state and say that "all the public schools paddle kids in Arkansas." The article said that was in a very conservative and rural area, which Arkansas does have a lot of. I'm shocked that it happened at all. In case you don't know, NW Arkansas (Where the Duggars live) has a population of about 1/2 a million. The area where the Duggars live may look rural on TV but it's JUST outside of a fairly large area, at least for Arkansas. It's also pretty diverse here, and while it is religious, it's not as conservative as most of Arkansas. 

I'm not saying any of this to defend the area, I'm not from here originally and I've only been here since September. We live maybe 10 minutes from the Duggars and my kids go to a fantastic school. No paddles in sight. We're only here for the year (work related) but we chose where we lived based on the school. I grew up in Chicago and I've lived on both coasts, it's really not that bad here. 

[kachuu]

I don't want to sound like a leg humper, but i am really digging Jana's succulents. I have to look into these air things she posted. I wouldn't be part of a bible study with this girl, but yeah i'd let her decorate my office. 

 

I can't keep anything green alive. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I am impressed with Jana's garden. It was one of the 1st times I remember being genuinely impressed by a skill set shown by a Dugger.  I also have no green thumb. 

[eye_browz]

Now that Jana has an Instagram, I bet she's getting lots of messages from potential suitors. She should "interview" all of them and pick the best one. She won't lose pieces of her heart so I don't see the issue with it.

Millennials will sometimes use social media to meet potential boyfriends/girlfriends. This guy will probably be fundie-light if he has an Instagram, or he could be a young, hip pastor like Jeremy.

Edited February 19, 2019 by eye_browz

[kachuu]

I think that most suitors have been around for years knowing the family "behind" the camera before they start courting. It may seem like they were plucked out of the blue, but in reality, they were former church members or conferences or what not.

 

I'd have a hard time imagining Jana choosing a total unknown with absolutely no releation over the years.

 

I bet Jim Bob goes thru her DMs. 

[Buzzard]

12 minutes ago, kachuu said:

I think that most suitors have been around for years knowing the family "behind" the camera before they start courting. It may seem like they were plucked out of the blue, but in reality, they were former church members or conferences or what not.

 

I'd have a hard time imagining Jana choosing a total unknown with absolutely no releation over the years.

 

I bet Jim Bob goes thru her DMs. 

Are there any eligible men on the production crew?

[AnnaRuk09]

What about Ben, Derick and Jeremy? They came out of the blue with no past or present (at the time) relation with the Duggar’s church or even their denomination. Ben and Derick, who are from Arkansas, knew about the family from TV, they crossed paths with the family and then they acted. Jeremy crossed paths with Ben and Jessa and through them met Jinger. 

Jana has had years and years to observe potential matches in the area and that are apart of her denomination/church. And based on how the show portrays her personality, she doesn’t seem like the passive ignorant type that will compromise just for the sake of getting married. she seems very cautious, willing to wait however long for true love, which isn’t a bad thing. I mean that’s what they believe, I’ve heard Christian women over and over say how God himself will send them a spouse according to his timing. I can definitely see her eventually choosing a complete unknown that crosses paths with the family and gets worked in. 

 

[Meggo]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 5:58 AM, motelmum said:

Neither of my sons is circumcised. Not my body not my decision. 

With my eldest I was a single mum so it was solely my decision. My eldest is soon to turn 25. When he was born paediatricians had just stopped routinely doing them.  It had actually never crossed my mind to get it done to him. I always thought if he needed it done for medical reasons at a later stage then so be it, but I wasn't going to make that decision for my son.

My youngest is only 13 and this time I had to confer with a husband. We discussed it only because my husband is circumcised. I expressed my ani-circumcision stance and he agreed. Having been the recipient of a botched surgery himself he was reluctant to have his son undergo the  operation.  

Both my boys were taught to wash their bodies (as I am sure every other parent has done for their children) and this included care of their uncut penises. There was some concern when my eldest was young that his foreskin was too tight, however the doctor said once he begun to masturbate that it would assist in releasing it. 

I also agree with @Cheetah.

Yep - we didn't circ my son. For a variety of reasons. I don't see why we should have, Daddy didn't have it done, he was 5lbs when we LEFT the hospital, I heard a baby in the next row of NICU beds over getting it and I couldn't stomach MY baby making those cries, and then I watched the prep (just the PREP) for the procedure on line and couldn't watch anymore.

And - you know - you teach them to wash behind their ears, you teach them to wash their bums, you teach them to care for their penis. (that's Daddy's job - to teach him the ins and outs of penis care as I'm not an owner) 
It's really NOT a big deal. (granted - my kid is 6)

[Meggo]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, lumpentheologie said:

It is definitely a thing in the US that uncircumcised boys and men are looked down on and treated badly by other boys and men.  At least in my generation (old millennial) I heard about it a fair bit from my brother and my first college boyfriend, who were both uncircumcised.  My brother wasn't circumcised because our mother was a hippy, and he was teased about it a lot growing up.  I think he was the only one who was different.  My former boyfriend (born to immigrant parents who didn't circumcise) also said he was tormented about it, and he was always ashamed and embarrassed of having a foreskin. My brother is gay and he said it was terrible to be a uncut gay man in America, guys were grossed out by him and rude about it.  He ended up getting circumcised in his early 20s because he couldn't deal with it. 

If I ever have a son I plan not to circumcise, but I do think this is a factor to consider in the US.  It's really sad and ideally it wouldn't be like that, but there's still a lot of stigma around being uncircumcised. We need to work on that by teaching our kids more about how different kinds of penises are normal. 

I feel like this is shifting though. I'm in my mid 40's and the penii I'm most familiar with - Hubs, son & one previous boyfriend - are all intact. Hubs (late 40s) has never said anything negative about it, he didn't mention getting teased or whatever. Previous boyfriend (likely mid 40's now) thought it was a badge of honor. (Son is 6 and doesn't seem to care - but does wonder what happened to Mommy's penis)

And I'd say a large majority of my friends with boys opted NOT to circ. So - I think the tides are changing. I don't doubt that there were issues before - but I think it's starting to shift.

[Buzzard]

49 minutes ago, AnnaRuk09 said:

What about Ben, Derick and Jeremy? They came out of the blue with no past or present (at the time) relation with the Duggar’s church or even their denomination. Ben and Derick, who are from Arkansas, knew about the family from TV, they crossed paths with the family and then they acted. Jeremy crossed paths with Ben and Jessa and through them met Jinger. 

Jana has had years and years to observe potential matches in the area and that are apart of her denomination/church. And based on how the show portrays her personality, she doesn’t seem like the passive ignorant type that will compromise just for the sake of getting married. she seems very cautious, willing to wait however long for true love, which isn’t a bad thing. I mean that’s what they believe, I’ve heard Christian women over and over say how God himself will send them a spouse according to his timing. I can definitely see her eventually choosing a complete unknown that crosses paths with the family and gets worked in. 

 

The bigger the duggar circle gets the less relevant they are.  Much like the kings of old, Boob is going to have to sell off one (or two) of his daughters for power.  Jana is prime politician's wife material, a noble woman to stand by someone in the public (actor, producer, athlete), or just a person with a high public profile.  They know the person that she will marry, she just may not have agreed yet.

[curlykate]

16 minutes ago, Meggo said:

(Son is 6 and doesn't seem to care - but does wonder what happened to Mommy's penis)

 

 

Haha. My oldest is about to turn 9 and I’ve finally convinced him I don’t have a penis. Never mind that I’ve never hidden from him, and I’ve explained many times that girls don’t have penii, he didn’t believe me until they started covering the basics in health class. ?‍♀️ 

[lizzybee]

I have two boys, and neither of them are circumcised. It was pretty simple for me in the decision making process. My body and yours grew your penis like that and that's your penis... so we're leaving it alone. I think they asked me several times for each of them in the hospital to be clear I didn't want them circumcised. I know it's commonly done, but I just wasn't for it. My dad thinks it's the weirdest ever that I didn't and has all these ideas that it's going to cause health problems. I don't agree. BFF was really adamant that I reconsider because her friend wasn't and he was so uncomfortable about not being circ that he had it done as an adult. I didn't feel like that person's experiences were enough to make me alter my own children's bodies. I think modifications of any kind should be up to the person individually. Personally, I love them exactly the way they are down to the tiniest freckle, so no regrets here. 

 

[BullyJBG]

Ok, do boys really "look down" on each other enough to call each other "uncircumcized"? It seemed like it in the New Testament; reading it thoroughly, and I'm like, how do they even KNOW? Girls have their ways of removing their bras under their shirts or through their sleeves, and how to switch shirts without anyone seeing anything, or putting them on under, or over their towels after swimming or showering, and so on. I learned all that at camp, and always wondered if boys had their ways of changing their underwear in a way that the other boys don't see in change rooms or camp cabins? Maybe boxers was one of those modesty-trick things? Like who does that? In a conversation with a pastor once, I learned that nudity was common in NT times; people removed their robes and were baptized in the nude. And there were public bathhouses, or they took baths in the lakes or rivers or whatever bodies of water there were. So I guess that answers that question. But, nowadays, in North America, how would men and boys really do that without intentionally looking down at each other?

[Taylurker]

On 2/18/2019 at 1:33 AM, Melissa1977 said:

While I don't agree with circumscision out of medical reasons, by no means male.and female circumcision can be compared.

Male circumcision does not take sexual pleasure away. Female circumcision is exactly done to avoid women having pleasure. 

Male circumcision is a very little procedure. Female is a major one. It's not only the cut that makes the differences, it's the pain and the consequences for the physical and mental health.

Milions of women are circumcised and traumatized forever and their health put in danger. Milions of men are circumcised and it has no noticeable repercussions in their lives.

 

Male circumcision DOES take sexual pleasure away, for both males and females. The foreskin has over 20,000 nerve endings on it! The female clitoris has less than half of that, in comparison.

The foreskin is a major part of sexual function. Not only is it highly sensitive, but it protects the glans and also keeps it lubricated for sex, which makes it more pleasurable for the woman. Many men who were circumcised as infants have issues as adults, including lack of sensitivity and numbness on their penis, which leads to sexual issues. There is also evidence that circumcision can cause emotional trauma for those babies as adults, even though they do not remember the procedure. 

I highly recommend you watch this presentation on youtube; An Elephant In The Hospital.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceht-3xu84I

Male circumcision is just as harmful as female circumcision. To say it is a "little procedure" or "unnoticeable" is factually incorrect and belittling to men who have suffered as a result of RIC.

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Taylurker

[SilverBeach]

10 hours ago, Meggo said:

you teach them to care for their penis. (that's Daddy's job - to teach him the ins and outs of penis care as I'm not an owner) 

This is why I was overjoyed as a single mom when I delivered a girl (didn't know ahead of time). No daddy in the house, and not a penis owner. I do know single moms of sons who have done great jobs, so they figure it out somehow.

6 hours ago, Taylurker said:

Male circumcision DOES take sexual pleasure away, for both males and females.

All the circumcised males I have been with (which is all the males I have been with) sure didn't seem like they suffered from reduced sexual pleasure. And how the hell would their circumcision have reduced my pleasure?

 

6 hours ago, Taylurker said:

Male circumcision is just as harmful as female circumcision.

Bullshit.

Edited February 21, 2019 by SilverBeach