Dillards 67: It Came From A Can

[SilverBeach]

13 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I think it's the attitude that's the issue. Jill was always so self righteous, that seeing her fail at things makes me want to go "How's your contentment, Jill? Are you working on it? Life's not all butterflies and rainbows now is it?" 

Jessa tends to go on the side of "I'm not perfect. Watch me mess up." Which is easier to deal with.

The definition of BEC is because you don't like someone, everything they do is fair game for criticism. I don't think there is any way to avoid BEC on a snark site like FJ where many of the people discussed are highly disliked. The difference is that the Duggar women are liked more than many, thus the appeal to be consistent or fair in criticizing them. That's just not FJ though. I agree with Carm88. I don't like Jill, but I don't like any of them really. I feel the criticism directed toward Jill is valid regardless of anyone's personal feelings about her. Some disagree with the criticism, which is their right. But it's not a matter of being consistent or fair.

[Alice in Fundieland]

33 minutes ago, TeaELSee said:

If a kid ate a teddy graham or something non porous off the floor I would shrug it off, but a slice of banana? Nope, that’s just gross, it’s like licking the floor to me.

I’ve been saying this for years, using that exact terminology. I apply the five-second rule for non-porous food items only. If I can blow the dirt off the food and pop it in my mouth, we’re good. If anything has a chance of sticking to the food, it’s going in the trash. 

[Rachel333]

24 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I do know that they are accurate. I was in a small department and I had classes with some of these people, every semester for 3 years. I knew them as people, not just that random person who sits in the front and annoys me. I try my best not to judge people about being excited about things, I tell people all the time to tell me to shut up if I talk too long about something I love. I can talk folklore until I'm blue in the face. My annoyance wasn't that they were enthusiastic, it was that they were bringing up unrelated topics and referencing other classes. "But in Vernacular Architecture, we learned that the Georgian style house was blah blah blah..." We're talking about Swedish fairy tales, why are you talking about Georgian style houses? Be enthusiastic but stay on topic!

I was talking more generally based on my own experiences in classes and I wasn't clear that the "you" wasn't meant for you specifically (I actually did remove another "you" because I wanted to write more generally, but I missed that one), it's just that your comment did remind me of something I've noticed a lot from people, especially in an academic setting, and I do think it's a shame that being enthusiastic in class, or at all, is judged so harshly. I really have often heard people talk about how students who sit in the front and ask questions are annoying. I'm not even one of those students (even if I'm really into a class I can't stand sitting in front) but it bothers me.

In Jill's case, I've seen a lot comments talking about how she's annoying because she seems so earnest and a "try hard," as if that's a bad thing. There's a difference between someone personally annoying and someone being bad, and sometimes I have to remind myself of that and I realize I'm not being fair in my assessment of people.

[SilverBeach]

8 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I have to remind myself of that and I realize I'm not being fair in my assessment of people.

It's OK to find some people annoying, they don't have to be bad. I don't think its a matter of fairness or not. Some people resonate with us, others don't. Personality conflicts are a thing. Just because you find someone annoying doesn't mean that your assessment of them isn't correct.

Overlooking negative things because you like someone isn't fair either.

[Rachel333]

20 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

But it's not a matter of being consistent or fair.

Do you mean that it doesn't matter if people are consistent or fair, or that you do think the comments are consistent and fair?

I actually am not too worked up about the comments about Jill. They may be BEC, but they tend to be about pretty inconsequential stuff that bother me less than other topics that come up frequently on FJ. I do think though that the comments are very inconsistent with how her sisters are treated on here. I've literally seen the same people complain about BEC comments about one sister and then come over to the Jill thread and make extreme BEC comments about Jill. Again, I actually don't think they're a big deal (the only thing recently that particularly bothered me was the snark about her supposed wrinkles) but the inconsistency can be striking at times.

2 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

It's OK to find some people annoying, they don't have to be bad. I don't think its a matter of fairness or not. Some people resonate with us, others don't. Personality conflicts are a thing. Just because you find someone annoying doesn't mean that your assessment of them isn't correct.

Right, I agree that it can be okay to find some people annoying. I wasn't saying it's bad to find people annoying, I was saying it's important to remember that just because someone is annoying doesn't mean that those annoying traits are intrinsically bad. 

[bal maiden]

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

For me Jill's personality annoys the shit out of me. She reminds me those people that I wanted to smack in university, the ones who sat in the front and constantly talked and where asking questions. The try hards, there were a couple who didn't seem to be much above average intelligence but they wanted to be thought that way. They needed the praise from the professor and if they didn't get it, they would keep trying. That type of attitude just drains me and it's all I see when I look at Jill.

Much like those people, if she focused on making herself happy and not needing praise from outside sources; she would be better off.

To be fair, her parents are partly to blame for this. She was raised in such a strong system of constant punishment vs reward/praise, on which she has been drip fed from birth. Any chance of her having any level of intrinsic motivation or self esteem has been extinguished by that. Different personality types are affected by praise to varying extents, and clearly she was very susceptible to it, and as such has been left hamstrung. 

[EmmieJ]

4 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

But it would never have been, nor will it ever be. Jessa's not dumb enough to post anything like this.

Good point.  Maybe something very similar happens at Jessa's house, with Spurge feeding his little brother a banana or other food on a fork, while Ben sits at the kitchen table and contributes a somewhat snarky remark to Spurgeon - but we don't know that because a video like that has not been posted by Jessa.  I'm not comparing the intelligence of Jessa versus Jill, but Jessa is definitely more media savvy than Jill and understands how to present widely appealing snap shots of her life to her public.  

I know I participate in some of the nit-picking about Jill and Dwreck and how they parent, but I really hate seeing kids ignored when they are clearly trying so hard to please their parents.  I hate seeing what appears to be one kid being favored over another.  It bugs me and that brings my snark to the surface.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

At one point in time I was a safety compliance officer.  Jill’s midwifery crap and these videos, in the words of the orange douchbag you and Ofjill worship, You’re Fired.  You just can’t fix stupid.  (But you can vote it out.)

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

BRB. Going to clean my dusty furniture.

I'm leaving for the grocery store now and no matter how much fresh produce and lean meat I buy I'll feel shame at every can I put in my cart.  

 

[Rachel333]

Spoilered because this is just a personal philosophy of sorts and really has nothing to do with Jill at this point:

Spoiler

This is just my own thing, but I do try to be fair in how I personally see most people. Sometimes I'm annoyed by people because they really are terrible people but if I find myself bothered by someone I try to assess whether it's something that really matters or not, and I try to look at the good things about them. It actually often does make me like people better, which I appreciate because I find it annoying to be annoyed at people.  It really isn't that I think it's bad to just find someone annoying, but it's not fun to be around people who annoy you and if I can change that by changing my own views then that just makes things easier for me.

I do apply this to internet interactions too, at least in places like this where you see the same posters over and over again. Even if I find myself annoyed by some comments people post (and honestly, my threshold for finding people annoying online tends to be much lower than it is in person!) I try to not let that affect my overall assessment of that poster unless it's something truly terrible. 

Again, that's just me, and I don't often talk about that because it's kind of corny and pollyanna-ish, and I'm sure some people find that attitude annoying itself.  I don't think everyone needs to do the same thing; I don't see it as a moral thing, just something I do to make things more pleasant for me. Of course, by saying it's a personal thing I also don't want to imply that I think everyone else just goes around judging people negatively for trivial reasons--I don't think that's the case at all.

On the topic of a different person, Trump is an example of someone I find intensely annoying and I actually think it's important to stay mad at him (I don't think I'm mad enough, in fact; I tend to get sad rather than mad, and I think righteous anger is better than sadness at motivating people to effect change). I really do think there's nothing too trivial to criticize about him, and I think even the things I would see as off limits for most people, like appearance and weight, are fair game for him because of his long history of bullying other people, particularly women, for those very things.

I don't personally see Jill as quite at that same level, but I'm not unsympathetic to people who do see her in that category. Her beliefs are genuinely terrible after all, and she supports even worse people like Trump.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Jill is old enough to change, she’s reading and watching TV and semi educating herself.  But she enjoys her self righteousness and holier than thou life. Fuck her, I’ve known too many jerks like Jill.

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, bal maiden said:

To be fair, her parents are partly to blame for this. She was raised in such a strong system of constant punishment vs reward/praise, on which she has been drip fed from birth. Any chance of her having any level of intrinsic motivation or self esteem has been extinguished by that. Different personality types are affected by praise to varying extents, and clearly she was very susceptible to it, and as such has been left hamstrung. 

I think you’re right about their parents bearing partial blame for some of the stuff we criticize all these people for. To name a few:  Josh may not have been so smug (among so many other things) had he been raised in a healthy environment, Jill may not have such a desperate need for attention and praise had she not been raised by parents who cultivated that, and Jinger may not appear to be so submissive if her parents (likely) hadn’t encouraged that quality in her.*

*I started to state this about Jinger a while back, didn’t word it well, and gave up the conversation to avoid a thread derailment. But I do think Jinger’s submissiveness was likely cultivated and encouraged by her parents and it could potentially be an issue down the road for her and/or her children. Jill is already struggling due to her need for praise and we all know what happened to the smuggest smug whoever smugged, partially because he was so smug and helped piss off the wrong people. I hope that isn’t the case for Jinger as well and that any appearances don’t match the reality. 

(Bolded words are because I’m not saying anything is a guarantee, just a possibility. People can have less than great aspects to their personalities regardless of how they were raised and we can’t know for sure how any of the Duggars would have done in other families.)

ETA: And just because I’m overthinking my wording, Jinger’s children aren’t the only ones who could possibly be impacted. The M kids and Dill kids have all been partly impacted already by the traits I mentioned. For the Ms it meant losing the show, dad going to Prayhab, and mom being sad. For the Dills it’s meant having their mom try to force adorable moments for public consumption in awkwardly done videos. 

[viii]

1 hour ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

Jill is old enough to change, she’s reading and watching TV and semi educating herself.  But she enjoys her self righteousness and holier than thou life. Fuck her, I’ve known too many jerks like Jill.

I don't think that's fair. Someone can be an adult but still have a child-like mentality, especially when raised in an oppressive, abusive situation. I grew up in a cult and while I am a functioning adult, there are still aspects of my life that need work because it's been ingrained in me since a child that it was not just bad, but it was morally wrong and would send me straight to hell. 

One thing I've learned in life is that while I don't have to condone behavior, I can express sympathy for it.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Jill needs one of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvGAE-ScNDY 

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Maybe trying to be a public figure isn't the best choice for her.

The problem is, much like her husband, every choice she makes seems to not work out for her.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

59 minutes ago, viii said:

 

One thing I've learned in life is that while I don't have to condone behavior, I can express sympathy for it.

You’re right, I’m sorry. It just makes me so upset to see people perpetuating the cult on their children.

[EmmieJ]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

The problem is, much like her husband, every choice she makes seems to not work out for her.

I wonder if it even occurs to her that she could go private?  No public Instagram, blog, FB page, etc.  Just be a SAHM, get involved in a local mom group, hang out when possible with friends and siblings, and just live like most of us.  

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 minute ago, EmmieJ said:

I wonder if it even occurs to her that she could go private?  No public Instagram, blog, FB page, etc.  Just be a SAHM, get involved in a local mom group, hang out when possible with friends and siblings, and just live like most of us.  

You're assuming she has critical thinking skills... lol

[Sky with diamonds]

6 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I think it's the attitude that's the issue. Jill was always so self righteous, that seeing her fail at things makes me want to go "How's your contentment, Jill? Are you working on it? Life's not all butterflies and rainbows now is it?" 

Jessa tends to go on the side of "I'm not perfect. Watch me mess up." Which is easier to deal with.

Jessa comes across as more genuine and honest to me. Jill tries way too hard...and I can't relate to her at all. 

[SamiKatz]

I know I'm not an expert on this in any way, shape or form, but I often wonder if people who dislike the Duggars/Bates, etc  think brainwashing is something you get over the minute you marry or whatever, and leave your parents house.

I don't think watching a few episodes of The Crown is going to set you straight, that might take many, many years (or may never happen at all).

I've said this before (but not in relation to the older Duggar children), that in some cases we are talking about people who literally had any ability to think for themselves beaten out of them.

I may not like their religious beliefs, or how they try to force them on others, but I can  honestly say I don't hate any of these people.  How could I?  I don't actually know them and in some cases have empathy for them*

Not for JRod, she drives me crazy. (Which I do feel conflicted about)

*and no, this does not make me a leg humper.

[Pecansforeveryone]

@SamiKatz, there is potentially a kind, decent side buried under their awful, sometimes evil beliefs. I see it in Joe Duggar more so than Jeremy Vuolo, even though I think Joe is technically more fundie than Jeremy. So I will empathize and feel compassion and advocate for the release of the decent person underneath. I will also rip them apart for truly harmful things they say and do because I want them to be better. 

The exceptions to this are Bill Gothard, Micheal Pearl, and a few others. They are monsters who can go rot in a cage. 

[SamiKatz]

25 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

@SamiKatz, there is potentially a kind, decent side buried under their awful, sometimes evil beliefs. I see it in Joe Duggar more so than Jeremy Cuomo, even though I think Joe is technically more fundie than Jeremy. So I will empathize and feel compassion and advocate for the release of the decent person underneath. I will also rip them apart for truly harmful things they say and do because I want them to be better. 

The exceptions to this are Bill Gothard, Micheal Pearl, and a few others. They are monsters who can go rot in a cage. 

I'm not sure if they do have a kind, decent side. Maybe, but maybe not.  I do have issues with how black and white they see the world - you're either in with them or you're 100% bad.  I hate that they try to restrict the actions of others and are actively working to impede others basic human rights, and absolutely the influence they have over others. But I am empathetic towards (some of) them and really, truly do not give one single flying fuck about what they do or do not eat for dinner.  (Can I say fuck here)?

[Beermeet]

5 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm leaving for the grocery store now and no matter how much fresh produce and lean meat I buy I'll feel shame at every can I put in my cart.  

 

As you should!!!!!   J/K  ?

[Pecansforeveryone]

Yeah, the black and white thinking is very, very strong. My fundie mother (who does have a good, kind side) has it very, very bad.  I think her personality and mental health issues find black and white thinking to be comforting and stabilizing. I found the opposite and her blackj and white thinking induced all kinds of anxiety in me that broke me down. 

[Maggie Mae]

8 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

For me Jill's personality annoys the shit out of me. She reminds me those people that I wanted to smack in university, the ones who sat in the front and constantly talked and where asking questions. The try hards, there were a couple who didn't seem to be much above average intelligence but they wanted to be thought that way. They needed the praise from the professor and if they didn't get it, they would keep trying. That type of attitude just drains me and it's all I see when I look at Jill.

Much like those people, if she focused on making herself happy and not needing praise from outside sources; she would be better off.

For some of us, direct feedback is important and makes us happy.