JinJer and Felicity 42: American Girl (grand)Duggar

[TatiFish9]

8 hours ago, Greendoor said:

I agree with you Tati.  And John David Duggar is a fundie man waiting to make more fundies with a girl who is surely as fundie as he is or they would not be getting hitched.

 

Agree. And definitely get what you're saying. John David has become an overnight super pet fundie sensation. I still can't tell (and probably never will) if John David is culturally fundie or the real deal, but Abbie has the *markers* of being fully indoctrined. I was surprised she was immediately accepted by the snark community at-large but soon realized that her not being a child bride and having some education, afforded her an easy pass. And honestly they do appear in love which most people can appreciate. Otherwise, she is true 2nd gen, seems a bit stern to me. For some reason, I can see her ruling the home with an iron fist. Basically, she's Michelle without all the frills, maybe? Too early to say?  She may be none of those things. Looks can, and quite often are deceiving . I have to remind myself that constantly, because I get carried away with speculation at times.

[treehugger]

Since I was the one who brought up Jinger and education, I just want to clarify that I don't actually give a damn whether or not she pursued higher education. Right now, I am living the stereotypical stay at home mom life, complete with two children and my husband does the bills (because anxiety is a bloody bitch), so I'm hardly one to judge. I merely brought it up as an example of the inconsistent ways the sisters are treated across the board. 

[Edhelfin]

Wearing pants, not being a child bride, higher education, having a relatively un-fundie job... so easy to pull some members' heart strings, unfortunately. If one thinks these things are signs of breaking free, just take a look at Lisa Metzger's family. 

[Gillyweed]

I don't necessarily think these things indicate Jinger (or any other fundie) is breaking free, but I think it gives more hope for their children. I know my beliefs are very different and more liberal than many of my aunts, uncles, and cousins' because I was raised in a different environment than they were. Jinger might not break free, but if Felicity is exposed to things like higher education it gives her more of a chance to question what she was taught. 

[melon]

11 hours ago, Percy said:

I blame the blood moon last night. 

And about 5 planets in retrograde.

[louisa05]

2 hours ago, Gillyweed said:

I don't necessarily think these things indicate Jinger (or any other fundie) is breaking free, but I think it gives more hope for their children. I know my beliefs are very different and more liberal than many of my aunts, uncles, and cousins' because I was raised in a different environment than they were. Jinger might not break free, but if Felicity is exposed to things like higher education it gives her more of a chance to question what she was taught. 

As a number of people have pointed out, though, leaving for most people is a slow process of baby steps rather than a sudden break. 

And young evangelicals (Millennial and increasingly Gen Z age) are leaving church in massive numbers. The notion that every single kid from every family followed here will be a lifelong devoted fundamentalist for the rest of their life is extremely improbable. 

Two of my mother's uncles moved their families from mainline Protestant church to a small fundamentalist sect when their children were young. Of those kids (eight of them in total who survived to adulthood--all now in their 60s and 70s or deceased), three stayed actively in that sect in adulthood. But only one for his entire life. Two of those three moved away to more mainstream church in later life--one to mainstream evangelicalism in her late 30s and one back to mainline protestantism in his 60s (and he was a part time pastor in their sect for much of his life). I couldn't tell you about the grandchildren  of one of the uncles. But literally NONE of the grandchildren of the other even regularly attend church. 

I have said about a billion times...I have a close friend who grew up fundamentalist. We taught together at crazy Christian school. She had been through the whole of it. Her father had seen to it that she got a teaching degree but only so she would be better prepared to home school her future children and he agreed she could teach until she got married. That turned out to be only one year. She is now such a far left radical that she and I have a hard time communicating. How did she change and leave? One baby step at a time. Earliest baby step was reading Christian books that were on the unapproved list for her church community. Then reading a few more. Then secular music creeped in, but only certain country artists who vaguely mentioned God now and again. Then her and her husband decided it wasn't so bad to go to a movie once in awhile. When they got cable, her parents went ballistic. They promised them they would only watch certain channels. And more music. Then more books including some critical of evangelicalism's culture wars; she asked me to go with her to an author's lecture on a book about that topic. She had no other friend who she could trust not to rat her out and if she and her husband both went and needed her parents to watch the kids, it could have got dicey for them.  Then she and her husband left her parents's church and went to an evangelical but less fundamentalist church where some secular music and television and movies were okay and what women wore was not such an intense issue--shorts were okay (pants had been okay for her by her parents' decree as long as not worn at church or any church related or god-related event). I helped her shop for some shorts and skirts above the knee. Then watched helplessly as she turned into a clothes horse worse than anyone I know...

And it went on and on. It was not a sudden break. This began when she got married and got out of her parents's house. It was 22 years before they entirely left church. And lack of money was not a factor. Her husband makes a six figure income and she has supplemented that working at home as an author and editor. They had plenty of money. It doesn't take financial issues to get out. Some of the Duggar kids who are out of their parents's house seem to be taking baby steps away from their parents's rules and therefore, the beliefs behind those rules. They may continue to take small steps away. And those things may add up over time and lead to a break. It may take five years. It may take 20 years. They also may not add up to a break. But people can break away from the way they were raised even if it was fundamentalism. 

And some of their horrid beliefs are not exclusive to fundamentalism. I know plenty of mainline Protestants who have made it clear to me that becoming Catholic meant a break from Christianity. I know plenty of mainline Protestants who are homophobic and against abortion and have abhorrent views about race and immigration. I know conservatives who haven't darkened the door of a church in their lives who are opposed to gay rights and abortion because the Republican party is. I personally know a fucking Nazi who was once one of the most highly regarded neo-Nazi leaders in the United States who was not raised in any church.  Every time I read that, "but they have horrible beliefs" thing, I think, yes. And so does your postal carrier and your neighbor and the guy who fixes your car or whoever it happens to be living their lives in proximity to you that you just have never had enough of a conversation with to know. And the thing about those beliefs is that if you just dismiss them as horrible people instead of getting to know people and being kind and letting them learn that the beliefs you hold (that they think are quite horrible) don't make you a hideous and unhappy person...well, then you give them an avenue to continue their persecution complex. My friend and I had completely opposite political beliefs when we met and became friends. She literally said to me once that she "didn't get me" because I was not "pro-life" by the definition she was taught and " you still care about kids". She was taught that anyone in favor of legalized abortion hated all children. 

Enough acceptance to meet people where they are can help them change, too. 

[Independent Spirit]

21 hours ago, Georgiana said:

Fundies are not unique in that they come out of their childhood homes with issues.  Most people do.  Now, the severity of those issues may vary, but there are no perfect parents, all parents will make mistakes, and because of that, most adults will have to take the time to address issues they inherited from their childhood homes.

Or they can choose not to.

But that's the point: after a certain amount of time FAILING to address issues IS a CHOICE.  And it is a CHOICE that is NOT made by the parents, it is a CHOICE that is made by the adult themselves.  It is a choice they are responsible for.  It is a choice they are accountable for.  I've got an ex who still is mad at me for breaking up with him when we were 17.  Did I fuck it up?  For sure.  I was at fault at the time.  But dude, we're 30 now.  If you're still holding onto this shit, that is NOT my problem.  It's yours.  Address it or don't, but the time has come for you to own it either way. 

And that is why we still hold fundie 2nd gen-ers accountable.  

If Jinger CHOSE to bring an innocent child into this world before she addressed her own issues, that's on her.  She's responsible for that, and she can answer for it.  If she CHOOSES to sell out her privacy for $$$, that's on her too.  If she CHOOSES to remain a "follower" and allow herself to be pushed over by her family, that's her choice...but she has to answer to that too (and for the record, I personally think that Jinger simply picks her battles).

I hope that in the future, Jinger and Jeremy will make GREAT choices that we will all be supportive of.  But they are WELL beyond free pass point, in my opinion, so there is NOTHING wrong with holding them accountable RIGHT NOW in the same way we hold the other Duggars accountable.  Joy certainly never got this level of a pass, and she's both younger than Jinger and has been out of the house for a shorter period.  

In conclusion, no matter where you come from, when you become an adult it is YOUR responsibility to get your shit together.  You can choose to do that, you can choose to wait to do that, you can choose NOT to do that, but no matter what you choose, that's your choice and you have to be ready to own it.  No one stays 16 forever.  

Something I'm curious to know is what you consider the age of adulthood/responsibility to be. I can attest from personal experience that when you live with one or two parents bent on infantilizing you until marriage magically transforms you into full adulthood, it's incredibly difficult to throw off that yoke--either before or after you escape. As other posters have mentioned, you have to realize there's something wrong before you can start making changes.

I personally struggle with the fact that I didn't make it out until I was 24 (raised in ATI by a smothering,  narcissistic mother with a father who didn't agree with her,  but didn't have the strength to reign her in.) I had been actively trying to leave for three years at that point. It took me until age 23 to realize that I didn't have to obey my mother anymore. Ephesians 6:1 doesn't contextually mean that adult sons and daughters have to do that, I finally realized--after going through Thomas Edison fake College to get a degree I knew others wouldn't respect (technically accredited, but I never set foot on campus and took only one course through the college so I was never out from under my mother's thumb. Just as she wanted it.) After desperately wanting to go to college on a real campus and being denied the opportunity, after asking to be taught to drive at 16 and not being allowed until age 20, after years of having my clothing choices strictly limited and scrutinized (really all of the minutiae of my life, come to think of it,) after years of being treated as a surrogate spouse to my mother, after years of being homeschooled and probably more isolated than the Duggars are, by my mother's choice--it still took me a good two years of complete independence before I was even able to process what had happened to me. Granted, I was miserable and I knew something was wrong, but I had to take two years just to savor being able to breathe before I was able to think about setting serious boundaries with my mother or about openly doing things I knew she wouldn't approve of. Even then, it took months of convincing and patient listening from my now-husband before I could actually confront my mother and shake off her control once and for all (or, more accurately, realize that she couldn't control me anymore.) 

And all this is coming from a person who at least used to have a strong personality and who always had a strong drive for independence. Someone who had been plotting a way out since age 12. If it took me until age 23 to realize that it wasn't sinful for me to achieve my goals without my mother's approval, even-Horrors! Against her wishes and out from under her authority!-then I can imagine it might take Jinger and her siblings a good length of time to find their own voices. I hope they do. And I hope that my own sisters, 36 and 24, still living as unmarried dependents on my parents, wake up and realize that the swamp they live in stinks. I don't understand why they seem to be comfortable in it. I never was. My brother never was. (He escaped, too.) We got out when we could. But. . . I'm rambling and this is The Great Wall of Text. Just please remember that it may take the adult Duggar sons and daughters a long time to realize that they have any agency--let alone to use it. A lack of apparent change doesn't mean they'll never change.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

14 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

VC is @VeganCupcake  or @VelociRaptureDid the both leave?

If you click on the username, you can see the person’s profile, including most recent visit, post, etc. Vegan Cupcake hasn’t been here since September. She mentioned that she doesn’t use birth control, and wasn’t too worried about it because her not-serious boyfriend’s parents had money. She got a LOT of pushback on that! Several people had stories about rich guys who avoided paying child support.

[TatiFish9]

I agree @louisa05 especially with your last line!

But, (and also), while I do not believe it is ever okay to go HAM on another poster just because ya can, I do understand the frustration of relating to the fundie lifestyle all the while abhorring its affects. I constantly struggle with whether snarking is initiating true change or if it is an indirect method of supporting these reality stars all the while helping to sustain their fandom.

Furthermore, living the 2nd gen life is not easy. Sometimes it does feel counter-intuitive to see posters discussing so deeply a lifestyle they've never had to endure. It's like when people without children chastise someone's parenting skills or when someone who has never had a job a day in their life comments on work ethic.  Their opinions may be accurate, to a certain extent, but the experience can truly be undermining for someone who knows better simply because they've had to live it. 

However, what I have found for myself, is that accountability is a healer. We could argue that sympathy should be given for those in general society ( and especially underprivileged groups) who have committed aggressive or violent crimes. Often more than not, their behavior is a result of a worldview given to them that they also found darn near impossible to escape. But on average, we don't give that kind of leeway. 

Unfortunately, for adults, we must rise above the children inside ourselves. It is our responsibility to be better citizens whether our upbringing gave us the tools to do so or not. It's unfair. It sucks. It is life. And still we can't expect immediate change from these fundie kidults because evolution does not happen overnight. What a conundrum. Anyhow, I think half these kids <or at least a third> are frauding it up (not to be confused with de-frauding it up. lol) 

Btw, I too suffered with proper decision making for yeeeeeaaaarrsss.  I literally had to consult three to five people every time I was faced with a choice (more if it was life altering). What a freakin' nightmare. I wasted an entire decade behaving like a teen  before forcing myself to become an emotional adult. I was so behind on everything. Meanwhile, many secular peers were already well on with their lives, because they were on track developmentally. I have deep-seated resentments about that. I am still working it out sometimes through therapy and other times through self-help ventures. Again, the struggle is real! 

Btw, is there already a thread discussing 2nd genisms? I was going to start one, but realized there may already be a topic I can read through instead. 

 

[PainfullyAware]

7 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

I constantly struggle with whether snarking is initiating true change or if it is an indirect method of supporting these reality stars all the while helping to sustain their fandom.

I'm definitely an armchair anthropologist looking from the outside and this is a good point. Snarking within an echohamber probably isn't creating change. Luckily FJ is big enough and threaddrifts are drifty enough we all learn lots on a million different subjects, even if the vast majority are preaching to the choir on the dangers of fundamentalism specifically. At least always relearning there's lots I don't know makes me feel like a more open, curious and empathetic global citizen. And nerdy nerd. 

[Bad Wolf]

I remember when the Anglican church censured the Episcopal church for marrying gays. The priest asked if we'd heard that. I'd read it in FJ. He said not to worry, they'd done it before, and would probably do it again. Thanks to FJ, I was already aware. 

[TatiFish9]

@Independent Spirit

 I totally missed your post the first time I was skimming through. I agree with much that you're saying especially your last line, too! I am so glad you got out. It may seem like a long time but 23 is still early on. I would say for me I spent my entire 20s "getting out", but I never feel fully out because 90% of my family is fundie and I still associate.  I also married into conservative Christianity that was disguised as contemporary. So after I finally got up the nerve to challenge my family, I had to eventually fight within my marriage to define my own spirituality and pick my own church.

I was not any where near ATI, but I guess close to fundievangelical as some called it. I was allowed to go away to school but I was tricked into not going too far. I went to a Christian college with accredited degrees. We were still treated like children. No curfews. Coeds couldn't be in the dorm after certain hours and if you were in with someone of opposite sex during privilege hours, ya couldn't have the doors closed. Also, there was some silly rule about not having your feet off the floor a certain amount of inches or something. Back then it made all the sense in the world because I was "pure of heart and soul." I was drinking gallons of the kool aid.

Unlike you, I did not have an independent personality. Not yet anyway. I simply had an extremely active mind. I thought about things. The more I was on my own meeting Christians of other denominations, the more I began to realize something wasn't adding up. 

I think there are different reasons why people leave. It depends on personality, access to resources, how deep your parents caretakers are in it, exposure to different lifestyles and divine intervention/fate/destiny whatever . Some people leave mentally long before they remove themselves physically. This is why the first gens (parents, family and church members) pressure, guilt and demean. They trap you in the mind, all the while saying it's your choice and if you choose otherwise, bad things will happen. They want you close and they want you controllable. Also, the reason many stay is because It's not all bad.  It feels safe when you think God is rewarding you for living a holy life. As someone said upthread, those people only leave or begin to change philosophy when something terrible happens. But for others it only renews their faith and increases their fear. Anyhow, I am long beyond those times now. But I have been really emotional about it as of late. Maybe the super full moon!

[nastyhobbitses]

16 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Some people leave mentally long before they remove themselves physically. This is why the first gens (parents, family and church members) pressure, guilt and demean. They trap you in the mind, all the while saying it's your choice and if you choose otherwise, bad things will happen.

In ex-JW circles (I lurk on a lot of religious group-related internet communities because I'm an armchair anthropologist/sociologist), I've heard the terms PIMO (Physically In, Mentally Out)/POMO/PIMI/POMI to describe where people are in the Jehovah's Witness community. Were similar terms used among people who left/were in the process of leaving your group, to your knowledge? I know that ex-Mormons also have a similar jargon. 

[TatiFish9]

10 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

In ex-JW circles (I lurk on a lot of religious group-related internet communities because I'm an armchair anthropologist/sociologist), I've heard the terms PIMO (Physically In, Mentally Out)/POMO/PIMI/POMI to describe where people are in the Jehovah's Witness community. Were similar terms used among people who left/were in the process of leaving your group, to your knowledge? I know that ex-Mormons also have a similar jargon. 

Besides sinner, backslider and sometimes bench/seat warmer, not that I know of. I am not apart of a community of people who left. I left but I still associate which I am sure people in communities that officially shun can't do. Every now and again I will talk to one friend who will give me gossip of what's happened to all the people in our youth group. Many are still in but almost all of us who went away to school have left! Two are self proclaimed atheist. One of those two is actually on my social media. The friend told me their atheist status, but they've never revealed such in their posts. Sometimes my mothers sees people and tell me whether they are out of the church on in. If she knows they arent "saved" anymore, she says they are "out there".

Looking at the terms you used, POMI considering it means Phys out, mentally in, that is reaaallly deep.  I wonder what that looks like socially. I also wonder why someone would leave and not be within the protection of the group, if they still want to be there. Unless this means they have not done the work to unload the mental baggage from their time in.

[nastyhobbitses]

Just now, TatiFish9 said:

Unless this means they have not done the work to unload the mental baggage from their time in.

That's what I think it tends to mean in those communities. I could also imagine a situation where one or a couple of family members leave, and others join them out of necessity/submission (parent leaves, child ends up leaving as well, or one spouse leaves and the other comes along) but don't really LEAVE-leave. Or someone gets kicked out/disfellowshipped, but still believes everything. 

[cascarones]

Jinger is a preacher's wife. Felicity is a preacher's daughter.

That complicates the process of looking at *any* religious change. Jinger stepped the farthest out of ATI in her choice of spouse as far I can tell (TBH don't know anything about Lauren or Abbie). Whether or not the Duggars still have any fame weighing on the grand-Duggar level when Felicity's the same age Jinger was when the specials started, Felicity will always be on performance, so to speak. It's different than her cousins, who will have the opportunity to just have famous parents. The preacher's family is generally watched and judged regardless of fame. What she wears to Sunday service will be scrutinized, what areas of involvement she has at church and school will be well known in the congregation, her absence on a single Sunday will be noted and the reason why questioned and counted by some biddy to bring up in later gossip.

[nastyhobbitses]

18 hours ago, louisa05 said:

She literally said to me once that she "didn't get me" because I was not "pro-life" by the definition she was taught and " you still care about kids". She was taught that anyone in favor of legalized abortion hated all children. 

I think that demonization and othering is a common tactic to keep people from examining their own beliefs, and it cuts in a lot of different ways. It can be "I can't be pro-choice because I'm not an evil baby-killing monster like pro-choice people all are". It can be "I can't be racist because I'm not a Nazi who goes around saying the N-word like REAL racist people do".

[treehugger]

16 hours ago, Independent Spirit said:

Something I'm curious to know is what you consider the age of adulthood/responsibility to be. I can attest from personal experience that when you live with one or two parents bent on infantilizing you until marriage magically transforms you into full adulthood, it's incredibly difficult to throw off that yoke--either before or after you escape. As other posters have mentioned, you have to realize there's something wrong before you can start making changes.

I personally struggle with the fact that I didn't make it out until I was 24 (raised in ATI by a smothering,  narcissistic mother with a father who didn't agree with her,  but didn't have the strength to reign her in.) I had been actively trying to leave for three years at that point. It took me until age 23 to realize that I didn't have to obey my mother anymore. Ephesians 6:1 doesn't contextually mean that adult sons and daughters have to do that, I finally realized--after going through Thomas Edison fake College to get a degree I knew others wouldn't respect (technically accredited, but I never set foot on campus and took only one course through the college so I was never out from under my mother's thumb. Just as she wanted it.) After desperately wanting to go to college on a real campus and being denied the opportunity, after asking to be taught to drive at 16 and not being allowed until age 20, after years of having my clothing choices strictly limited and scrutinized (really all of the minutiae of my life, come to think of it,) after years of being treated as a surrogate spouse to my mother, after years of being homeschooled and probably more isolated than the Duggars are, by my mother's choice--it still took me a good two years of complete independence before I was even able to process what had happened to me. Granted, I was miserable and I knew something was wrong, but I had to take two years just to savor being able to breathe before I was able to think about setting serious boundaries with my mother or about openly doing things I knew she wouldn't approve of. Even then, it took months of convincing and patient listening from my now-husband before I could actually confront my mother and shake off her control once and for all (or, more accurately, realize that she couldn't control me anymore.) 

And all this is coming from a person who at least used to have a strong personality and who always had a strong drive for independence. Someone who had been plotting a way out since age 12. If it took me until age 23 to realize that it wasn't sinful for me to achieve my goals without my mother's approval, even-Horrors! Against her wishes and out from under her authority!-then I can imagine it might take Jinger and her siblings a good length of time to find their own voices. I hope they do. And I hope that my own sisters, 36 and 24, still living as unmarried dependents on my parents, wake up and realize that the swamp they live in stinks. I don't understand why they seem to be comfortable in it. I never was. My brother never was. (He escaped, too.) We got out when we could. But. . . I'm rambling and this is The Great Wall of Text. Just please remember that it may take the adult Duggar sons and daughters a long time to realize that they have any agency--let alone to use it. A lack of apparent change doesn't mean they'll never change.

You brought up a lot, and all of this is JMO, so take it with whatever... I consider age of responsibility to start the minute you are eligible to and do vote. If you are able to influence public policy, then you need to be held accountable. The reason for that is many people grow up f*cked up, religious or not, and many people will never change their beliefs, but they will still vote, and decide the futures of others, and I will call them out on their harmful beliefs for that reason. 

I was in my twenties when I joined FJ and while I personally wasn't raised fundamentalist (being a medical missionary kid might have helped with that) the church my parents were part of had become increasingly cultish (hyper-Calvinist), so when we came back to Canada, I was exposed to a lot of harmful beliefs that took me years to get over (@formergothardite asked me a lot of questions that I didn't have good answers to, and I floundered for a while). I was a conservative Christian for at least one election, and I need to own my shit and acknowledge that even though I thought I was doing the right thing at the time, I voted for a person who held awful beliefs. 

Now, while I believe the age I feel accountability starts when you can vote, I'm willing to acknowledge that a lot of change happens in your 20's and I'm probably not going to be too hard on you. But, I don't have much patience for people after they have children. For me, that's the line. I realize there's a lot of children having children in fundie circles, but once you are in charge if another human, my bullshit meter is going to be pretty low. 

Im also concerned about how much benefit of the doubt we give young, white, fundamentalist adults. Like yes, I get how hard it is, and how psychologically  difficult it is too grow up like that, but at the same time, young people who don't grow up with religion or a different religion are often not given the same pass, yet may experience similar levels of trauma.  

[TatiFish9]

1 hour ago, treehugger said:

Im also concerned about how much benefit of the doubt we give young, white, fundamentalist adults. Like yes, I get how hard it is, and how psychologically  difficult it is too grow up like that, but at the same time, young people who don't grow up with religion or a different religion are often not given the same pass, yet may experience similar levels of trauma.  

What you're saying is truth. Fundamentalism is not limited to white christians, christians in general or organized religion. Neither is trauma. Neither is discrimination. Or oppresion.

That is why the conversation remains complicated.

In addition, I have to say, that historically passes tend to be given across the board to privileged groups. It always amazes me when white teens or young adults find themselves caught up in something illegal,  people say "they're just kids", they're learning. Give them a break. However, when a minority does similar, they are immediately expected to be charged and prosecuted even if it is something traditionally considered minor, like shoplifting.

I think there is a difference between knowing something and experiencing it.  I am sorry. There just is. I never like to be the kind of person who says that, because I do not believe in silencing a voice who may have obtained their knowledge outside of experience. That knowledge it just a valuable but it is still limited.

I liken it to being a professional. You may have gone to school, passed your certs and even done an internship/clinicals etc. However you won't even begin to know that field until you've been in it day and night, you are a part of the reward and consequence system and it becomes a part of your psychology. Same thing with culture and so many other things. Some people just think they know but they truly don't have a clue.

[seraaa]

This is the sort of perspective and perspective that's so great to read and learn about on FJ @TatiFish9 @treehugger @Independent Spirit @louisa05 and everyone else. I learn a lot.

[mollysmom]

18 hours ago, Independent Spirit said:

And all this is coming from a person who at least used to have a strong personality and who always had a strong drive for independence. Someone who had been plotting a way out since age 12. If it took me until age 23 to realize that it wasn't sinful for me to achieve my goals without my mother's approval, even-Horrors! Against her wishes and out from under her authority!-then I can imagine it might take Jinger and her siblings a good length of time to find their own voices. I hope they do. And I hope that my own sisters, 36 and 24, still living as unmarried dependents on my parents, wake up and realize that the swamp they live in stinks. I don't understand why they seem to be comfortable in it. I never was. My brother never was. (He escaped, too.) We got out when we could. But. . . I'm rambling and this is The Great Wall of Text. Just please remember that it may take the adult Duggar sons and daughters a long time to realize that they have any agency--let alone to use it. A lack of apparent change doesn't mean they'll never change.

It looks like you're new to posting.....WELCOME!!!! It sounds like you & I were raised very similar! I was raised way more strictly than the Duggars! And my mom was very controlling. I got married at the age of 24 just to get out of the house because that's the only way girls were allowed to move out (getting married) Anyway, it took me YEARS even after moving out to realize just how fucked up my mom is. It's something that each person has to see/realize for themselves and sometimes, like in my case, it can take years. I've been in counseling for a long time just trying to kind of undo the damage that that lifestyle did to me. I definitely have hope that some of these kids will eventually start thinking for themselves and realize that mommy and daddy aren't always right! 

[Carm_88]

I think the age where people become an adult is tough to determine now. People are in school for so long and independence is hard to get with the cost of housing prices and the sheer amount of student debt. Fundies? When do they become adults? I don't know. The Duggars were little adults for a long time, Jinger and her sisters had a lot of responsibility that the should not have had. However, they also had a shit ton of brainwashing and were taught to toe the line to the extreme. It's a weird line and makes judgment hard. 

Perhaps when they become parents? 

[SilverBeach]

4 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

In ex-JW circles (I lurk on a lot of religious group-related internet communities because I'm an armchair anthropologist/sociologist), I've heard the terms PIMO (Physically In, Mentally Out)/POMO/PIMI/POMI to describe where people are in the Jehovah's Witness community. Were similar terms used among people who left/were in the process of leaving your group, to your knowledge? I know that ex-Mormons also have a similar jargon. 

I lurk on the ex-jw subreddit, and yes those terms are useful for describing the stages of disengagement. In high-control organizations like the JWs where you will likely lose all your family and friends when you "come out", the stakes are high so it may take a while to fully remove yourself.

[KeshetParparNesicha]

12 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

Snarking within an echohamber probably isn't creating change.

Maybe not for the families being snarked on, but what about for the people reading? I know that FJ changed me.

[seraaa]

2 hours ago, seraaa said:

This is the sort of perspective and perspective that's so great to read and learn about on FJ @TatiFish9 @treehugger @Independent Spirit @louisa05 and everyone else. I learn a lot.

"perspective and perspective" should be perspective and insight, and the edit button is long gone 

But I stand by it