John David and Abbie Grace Engaged 2: Planes, petals, and proposals

[Mama Mia]

49 minutes ago, Karma said:

Big parenting win today, I managed to get my 18 yo son to the dentist for a check up and clean.  No fluoride, he just can’t handle the taste, but at least a clean.  Disgustingly,  this is the first time since his last check up in January that he has had his teeth properly cleaned.  At most I can get him to put a dry toothbrush in his mouth for maybe 5 seconds a month (sadly I’m not exaggerating). 

He has Aspergers and teeth cleaning is a huge sensory issue.  I’ve told him that his teeth will fall out, to no avail.  He’s too big for me to force, and we haven’t found a way of making him clean them.  Fortunately he’s managed to escape fillings so far - he has little junk food and a lot of water.  His teeth are very crooked but there’s zero chance of him coping with braces, so we haven’t tried.

His dentist has moved from the next suburb to his own practice an hour away.  Definitely worth the drive to stick with a dentist he likes and who understands his issues.

Wow, that’s so fortunate that he has had no cavities. AND that he has a good connection with this dentist ! 

Just a thought. Xylitol ( a sweetener made from corn or birch ) has naturally plaque fighting properties and can be added / found in lots of types of foods, with different textures, if textures are an issue. Sounds like he has great teeth, but as an extra boost, might be helpful. 

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, xenobia said:

I don't think they are married, but I do think that they have known and courted for longer than just a few weeks. I'd put my money on the option "not formally engaged, but have an agreement to marry". 

To the bolder: Well, isn’t that what a courtship basically is?

My bet is they have started their courtship and have already an engagement and wedding date in mind. Maybe they are just pro forma courting but I actually think JD is towing the Fundie line because he is Fundie and while might not believe in every ridiculous JB/Gothard rule he still supports the general ideas.

[JesSky03]

7 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Would like to add, that having a perfect straight row of theeth isn’t the normal standard either. Jaws come in different forms and as long as you don’t have any problems you shouldn’t straighten them if the tilted position isn’t too bad. 

Unnecessary straightening can cause some serious problems later (from grinding to migraines to neck and jaw/bite problems). 

Recently there also came up studies who challenged the idea of getting rid of theeth in teenage years when a jaw is too small (before wisdom teeth grow in). They say that it seems to have an unfortunate influence on bite and jaw with the same problems as pure cosmetic straightening. I believe the new adivise is to straighten them in the teenage years and then remove the wisdom teeth.

I think it is crazy to do an expensive and purely cosmetic medical treatment that is probably affecting your health in a bad way on such a superficial topic. Now, if you are personally bothered by your looks- you do you but making a purely  cosmetic call for others (minors) is wrong in my opinion.

That is interesting. I had a lot of orthodontic work when I was a kid and I have a really bad jaw now. I wore retainers and headgear at night for years just to pull my lower jaw forward. Had 6 teeth pulled because my adult teeth would grow in before my baby teeth fell out. Braces for a couple years, although my teeth were never really crooked. Wisdom teeth came out a couple years ago- I had them for about 9 years before I had to get them out because they had cavities. I paid for the wisdom teeth myself and thankfully had decent insurance at the time, but I have no idea how my parents were able to afford all the work I had done. We were not wealthy by any definition of the word. I do have nice looking teeth now except my bottom teeth smashed together pretty badly after my braces came off. They are so tight I don't even bother trying to floss because it just gets stuck and it hurts trying to yank it out. Sometimes I can't help but wonder if it was all truly necessary and worth it. 

[melon]

2 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I have my wisdom teeth, but I did have eight (yes, 8 - four molars, four premolars) teeth pulled as part of my braces-adventure at 13. My wisdom teeth came in when I was 12. I had a kid-sized jaw with 32 HUGE teeth. My teeth are much wider/larger than typical, which is why I had two complete rows of teeth - they had nowhere to go.

As an adult, my jaw is still small. My dentist has to use child-sized tools/x-ray holders/etc.

I have my wisdom teeth,too.I had braces,at 15.My mother tried to get me to wait....She'd say "Wait,then your husband or you can pay for them". She wasn't kidding.Anyway,my orthodontist said I had too many teeth for the size of my mouth.He sent me to an Oral Surgeon,and I had my four first bicuspids pulled to make room.My mother was pissed.She kept saying "Four good teeth" in German...My teeth look pretty good,they need to be cleaned,they aren't dazzling white.I need to go to the dentist.I am kind of nervous about it.It still have old fillings(mercury).I'm pretty sure I have gum disease,and I have a tooth front bottom...little pieces are coming off.It isn't loose and doesn't hurt,but I'm afraid it needs to be pulled.Ok, I'm vain.I don't want to go out,with a tooth missing,that's visible.I'll get a partial plate or something,I could never afford implants.I'm afraid to find out how much dental work I actually need,and the cost.I'm unemployed,so I don't have insurance,health or dental.

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

What’s weird is in the US you can pretty much date stamp blindingly white, super straight teeth on TV and movies to sometime in the 90’s . Before that people had regular teeth. If they were actors - obviously better than “average” , because they are actors , but regular teeth. But by the early ‘00’s the blinding white took over. And then of course, it became a thing for some everyday people to obsess over. 

I was just watching old Murder, She Wrote episodes (don't laugh at my lameness) and noticed the same thing. I also notice the difference when watching current British shows where the actors still have plenty of imperfections with their teeth. 

The problem with the whitening is that if everyone does it, your own average teeth begin to look yellow by comparison. Which is the problem I'm running into. 

[KelseyAnn]

2 hours ago, Karma said:

Big parenting win today, I managed to get my 18 yo son to the dentist for a check up and clean.  No fluoride, he just can’t handle the taste, but at least a clean.  Disgustingly,  this is the first time since his last check up in January that he has had his teeth properly cleaned.  At most I can get him to put a dry toothbrush in his mouth for maybe 5 seconds a month (sadly I’m not exaggerating). 

He has Aspergers and teeth cleaning is a huge sensory issue.  I’ve told him that his teeth will fall out, to no avail.  He’s too big for me to force, and we haven’t found a way of making him clean them.  Fortunately he’s managed to escape fillings so far - he has little junk food and a lot of water.  His teeth are very crooked but there’s zero chance of him coping with braces, so we haven’t tried.

His dentist has moved from the next suburb to his own practice an hour away.  Definitely worth the drive to stick with a dentist he likes and who understands his issues.

I work with a consumer like that who has sensory issues, and we found using an electric toothbrush was just fine for that individual. Perhaps that might work for your son? 

Also, maybe you do mouthwash nightly. That might cut down on the teeth-eating bacterium in his mouth. 

[melon]

1 minute ago, KelseyAnn said:

I work with a consumer like that who has sensory issues, and we found using an electric toothbrush was just fine for that individual. Perhaps that might work for your son? 

Also, maybe you do mouthwash nightly. That might cut down on the teeth-eating bacterium in his mouth. 

I have a problem with bleeding gums,which is why I think I have gum disease,but I have been using mouthwash,daily,and I have noticed when I brush and floss,I don't bleed as much or sometimes,not at all.

[HereticHick]

Another picture of Abbie (and her perfectly fine teeth) from her nursing class days last May, from a local newspaper:

source: http://coalgaterecordregister.com

[Pecansforeveryone]

Yeah, i just cant get over how exciting it is to see someone connected to the Duggars wearing scrubs and realize that it is not part of some stupid, contrived TLC  plotline. (Yes, I know she's 100% fundy.) 

[Gobbles]

2 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

I work with a consumer like that who has sensory issues, and we found using an electric toothbrush was just fine for that individual. Perhaps that might work for your son? 

I second the mouth wash. Works for me and I have the same problems. Electric toothbrush was a disaster. Two seconds and never again. It felt like having a hammer drill in my mouth. And I got scared that somehow my teeth would break. 

[xenobia]

7 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

To the bolder: Well, isn’t that what a courtship basically is?

My bet is they have started their courtship and have already an engagement and wedding date in mind. Maybe they are just pro forma courting but I actually think JD is towing the Fundie line because he is Fundie and while might not believe in every ridiculous JB/Gothard rule he still supports the general ideas.

More or less, but you can chose to finish a courtship. I think that they are way beyond that. They may not be formally engaged (as in him popping the question in public/before the cameras and her getting a ring), but they definitely are beyond the regular dating and courting. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I have known fundies who broken off courtships or at least dating with a purpose. That includes my homeschooled, SAHD, secular-culture shunning cousins. I think they (JD and Abbie) are just a hair away from being engaged. I wouldn't be shocked if we get an announcement in the next couple of weeks. Even if we don't, I think there is still an" understanding" about marriage.  

[MargaretElliott]

Maybe I missed it in the last thread (I've just returned to civilization from a week unplugged) but did JD and Abbie specifically state their courtship rules yet? Are they the bog-standard no hand-holding until engagement, no kissing until marriage, literally never have any alone time bullshit? I desperately hope not- they deserve the chance to actually talk like adults, because that's what they fucking are.

Also, I have 24 teeth total. Wisdom teeth plus eight of the ones people normally have got removed because my jaw is really tiny. I was in braces for six years. They're also slightly crooked because I hated wearing my retainer, but hey, they're better than they were, and I'm not worried about perfect teeth. My SO has perfectly straight top teeth and only slight crowding on the bottom, and he never had braces. Lucky bastard.

[justpassingby]

2 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I have known fundies who broken off courtships or at least dating with a purpose. That includes my homeschooled, SAHD, secular-culture shunning cousins. I think they (JD and Abbie) are just a hair away from being engaged. I wouldn't be shocked if we get an announcement in the next couple of weeks. Even if we don't, I think there is still an" understanding" about marriage.  

I kind of think that after Josiah and Marjorie the Duggars did not want any more egg thrown in their face so any courtship they have announced publicly since that break up have all been well past the "courtship" stage but they are still referring it as such just for show.

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I was just watching old Murder, She Wrote episodes (don't laugh at my lameness) and noticed the same thing.

I've been waiting for a chance to share this! And no judgment from me for watching Murder, She Wrote!

Spoiler

 

[xlurker]

On 7/8/2018 at 7:42 PM, Million Children For Jesus said:

Yep. I felt like I was in art class, and I got carried away with a contrast and compare. This is not art class. There is a time and a place, and you’re right, this isn’t the place.

I see your point, as a former art student myself I too remember those conversations--not only of peoples faces/bodies but of trees, still lifes...anything on canvas, sculpted or set down with charcoal.  I also remember being verbally physically discussed as if I were not there.  Its easy when you are not amongst other students, especially on a forum like this, to forget to censor yourself so to speak.  I still catch myself looking at things and mentally drawing them, seeing faces and bodies and thinking arms a bit short/long, eyes a bit close, etc.  Never do I think these things are bad, just a disconnected thought of how to make a two dimensional drawing appear as a 3 dimensional object.  Having said that, it is best to keep the firing line critique in the art studio.  If you haven't been exposed to that type of speech it does come across as harsh.  From the sound of it I think you see the error of your ways   I'd love to see your work!

[jqlgoblue]

21 hours ago, Marly said:

I just want to say, I had to have one of those because my upper jaw was too narrow.  I got it when I when I was 11, going on 12. My parents had to widen it twice a day for two months, and I had it for 6 months total. That thing is like a medieval torture device. My dad had to do the widening because my mom couldn't inflict that pain on me. I cried everytime it was widened because it hurt so much and my mom felt really bad about that and wasn't able to do it because of that. My dad felt bad too, but it had to be done. The only other option was surgery and I didn't want surgery, so the expander it was. But seriously, that was no fun at all. I've had all the possible braces types there are, and this one was by far the worst. 

+1 in the pallet expander group. I was 8 and clueless. Thank goodness for that and my mom had been a dental hygienist. I don't know how she did it. I was so skinny those few months b/c I could barely eat with that thing in my mouth.

Later I got a Frankel Appliance this huge terrible retainer like thing I had to wear for like two years. At least it came out to eat. I would rather have had head gear though b/c even though that was bad at least there were other kids who had them.

[Kaylo]

My son had a palatal expander about a year ago (8 years old). It didn’t really bother him at all. Even when I turned it, he said it felt like pressure but it went away after a few minutes.

It came out after 6 months and as soon as he gets some more of his permanent teeth he will get braces. Our orthodontist did say that after puberty palatal expanders really shouldn’t be used, that they should be used while the child is still young and the palate hasn’t fully hardened.

[Karma]

On 7/10/2018 at 1:14 AM, KelseyAnn said:

I work with a consumer like that who has sensory issues, and we found using an electric toothbrush was just fine for that individual. Perhaps that might work for your son? 

Also, maybe you do mouthwash nightly. That might cut down on the teeth-eating bacterium in his mouth. 

Thanks for the suggestion.  Unfortunately we tried 3 or 4 electric toothbrushes, found one he liked, and that did work for a few years (he’d last about 10 seconds before removing it).  Even with that he spent far more time obsessively spitting out any saliva before and after the brushing than the actual brushing.  But these days he seems more sensitive, plus also more rigid.  Mouthwash is a complete no go.  Tastes and smells are a huge issue for him.  

I hate to think how much teeth eating bacterium are in his mouth  .  @Gobbles I’m glad it works for you  .

[Shadoewolf]

What about the baby finger brushes (or the one that looks like a banana) with the rubber bristles? Different texture and it'd kinda work even if he just chewed on it, maybe? Or textured cloth? Youngest is sensory, has an oral fixation as a soothing mechanism so his fingers and pen caps are constantly in his mouth.

[PurpleCats]

Ughhh I had a palate expander and a Herpst (sp?) for 2 years. Then... braces for 3 more years. I write this as I sit drugged up at the dentist because going triggers panic attacks. Haha  I really, really dislike people poking around in there

[2manyKidzzz]

On 7/8/2018 at 10:05 PM, AnnEggBlandHer? said:

I wish they would refuse a chaperone altogether, but I hope they are at least going on mostly double dates with the other married siblings instead of having a 10 year old or Jana tag along. Then you could at least pretend it was normal. 

But no JB and Michelle double dates, or at least not mini golfing. 

I wonder if Jana would be a good chaperone......and maybe wander off to browse in stores accidentally leaving them alone for a bit. But she might also be too strict. But it’s a thought.

[SassyPants]

On 7/9/2018 at 10:45 AM, Pecansforeveryone said:

Yeah, i just cant get over how exciting it is to see someone connected to the Duggars wearing scrubs and realize that it is not part of some stupid, contrived TLC  plotline. (Yes, I know she's 100% fundy.) 

Yes...it's very refreshing to see someone who is not all Jesus and babies all of the time. An education, skills and established work experience/history are something that can never be taken away from Abbie. The Duggars need more of this kind of person and influences on their adult kids.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I will repeat what I said on a Duggar daughter thread. I'm not a fan of before age 21's getting married, but I leave that choice to the individual couple and try to be supportive. What reaaaaallly bothers me about the Duggar daughters getting married so young is that they have not so much as a part-time fast food job with maybe an 8th grade education. (Joy said her in her graduation video she had no exposure to algebra, so hence my guess of 8th grade education. I acknowledge Jill did take a few classes and attended births. I give her credit for that.) That in my mind, is a proverbial shackle around the Duggar daughters neck. The upside to Jeremy being vain and arrogant is that he will want his children to have a decent enough education to make him look good. I'm pretty dam certain Jinger Jr. will attend Christian school connected to their church or be immersed in a larger home school co-op. 

[Shadoewolf]

^ This. Oldest just graduated high school and she's not even 18 yet. But she waits tables 3 days a week, has very diverse friends and a boyfriend she adores but has some self-imposed reasonable boundaries with. By the time she's 21 she'll have finished most of her college degree and will have been living on her own for awhile. If she meets someone at that point and feels ready then I would believe it. But the Duggar kidults don't get that. They have mostly acquaintances they see a few times a year and that's it. It really does feel like JB brokers his kids like he does his real estate. And the kids have no real world experience to draw off of.