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formergothardite

IBLP Calls Cops on Bill Gothard for Trespass

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browncoatslytherin
5 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

Don't mind us. We're just all sitting here completely enthralled...

same.

 

i went to a few conference things for ati in the 90's, but i was like 5 and don't really remember much of anything, nothing of real merit that would be interesting, so it's nice to read some stuff from someone who has been recently.

 

i just have one question ... what does the daily schedule look like, nowadays? also, for jtth, what was it like there as well, schedule-wise? i'm curious because a story i'm writing involves a cult camp kind of similar to jtth (though a little more hardcore) and any pointers i can get i'm more than happy to take, since it's been years since i've been to any camp.

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Marionette
14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

How are gil and Kelly in real life?

In my experience, and contrary to what seems to be popular belief, most of the Bateses are really stand-offish and often rude. They have an in-crowd that they stick with. Even though I was around them quite a bit over the years, and they admitted they knew me, none of them ever really talked to me except for Nathan (who will make friends with anyone). Since the revival of their show, they have opened up a little more since they are more well-known now. I have to say the Duggars are more friendly & genuine. 

6 minutes ago, browncoatslytherin said:

it's nice to read some stuff from someone who has been recently.

i just have one question ... what does the daily schedule look like, nowadays? also, for jtth, what was it like there as well, schedule-wise? i'm curious because a story i'm writing involves a cult camp kind of similar to jtth (though a little more hardcore) and any pointers i can get i'm more than happy to take, since it's been years since i've been to any camp.

I'm glad this is of interest for you all. @Nikedagain?

The schedule can be found on the conference website , which I think may be helpful more-so than my attempts to remember/explain it. Though I could probably answer any specific questions you have about the written schedule. 

I'm going to put the rest under a spoiler because length.

Spoiler

 

JTTH has been a bit revised since I went, but I will do my best to remember. We spent about 3 days at HQ in Chicago where we were each interviewed (in the conference room, alone) by Mr. Gothard after filling out a form which would inform him how to conduct the interview. The form mostly consisted of us checking which lies we believed about ourselves. This was a totally foreign concept to me, because I had never heard of it before and I was thinking "I've never looked at myself in the mirror and gone 'Wow, she's UGLY!'" I didn't check any of them, and he just kind of went "Hmm... Well, do you listen to Christian contemporary music?" And then gave me his book on how evil it is. I never made it past the first chapter, and I still have the book... Can't decide whether to burn it or keep it (along with my other IBLP materials) for future "reference," you know like those RG or Homeschoolers Anonymous writers that keep their Wisdom Booklets to expose them. 

Anyway, we also underwent some "training," by sitting through some lectures and being introduced to the materials that we would be using throughout the week. On the first Sunday, we were taken to Gothard's church literally called Independent Baptist Church. We didn't have lunch because they encouraged us to fast until dinner in preparation for the week. Pretty much all of us forgot about the fasting part, because our house was filled with tons of awesome snacks & sweets (honestly, the food was the best part). 

On Monday it was a 6-hour drive to UP Michigan, though it took more like 8hrs because we stopped at Walmart and a restaurant. Once we got there, we had dinner and had a group lecture. Each day the teams would go through the different "hearts" (Do I have an adulterous heart? murmuring heart, ungrateful heart, etc.) We spent most of the day alone, Bible reading, praying, etc. though we did have some free time in the afternoon to kayak, play volleyball, etc. One day we had to go on a "prayer walk" around the lake, and each girl was sent out every few minutes so that we would be spaced out. We were encouraged to call our parents and confess our sins. On Thursday we had to spend the entire day fasting (until dinner), and the focus was on Psalm 119. On Friday they took us to a national park for fun (in previous years it was Lake Superior, but I don't know why they changed it).

Saturday we drove back to HQ, where Gothard offered to anoint us with olive oil. I didn't participate, but we spent an hour or two while girls individually went to the front of the conference room, called their parents, and then Gothard and the parents (over the phone) would take turns praying. Gothard also told the story about how he bought the property, which was once a horse ranch, and that's about all I remember. We took a tour of their print shop where they constantly print Gothard's books. There is a museum-like hallway with a timeline of Gothard's life, and how he started IBYC (Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts, the original name).

 

I still have my JTTH binder, among other things.

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browncoatslytherin

awesome! that is really helpful. sometimes human impressions are more important than a stickly schedule and so that's pretty helpful. thank you. :) *adds fasting and anointing to list of activities*

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meowfundiecatz

@Marionette Thanks for sharing! I am actually super curious about JTTH and the "heart conditions." I haven't recently checked but last time I did I couldn't find info on RG. If you have time I am interested in hearing about that material. If anyone else has a link to it let me know!

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Marionette
2 minutes ago, browncoatslytherin said:

human impressions are more important than a stickly schedule

No problem! I'll add an afterthought about the conference -- that I always felt like the schedule was way too packed. No time to really meet new people or interact with friends in between all of the sessions they keep you in. ALERT guys walk/drive around and ask anyone they see wandering to go to one of the sessions. That is why people show up super early/stay a day or two late. Everyone also stays up til about midnight, only to wake up super early and it really makes for an exhausting week. I don't know how families with young kids do it.

 

5 minutes ago, meowfundiecatz said:

@Marionette Thanks for sharing! I am actually super curious about JTTH and the "heart conditions." I haven't recently checked but last time I did I couldn't find info on RG. If you have time I am interested in hearing about that material. If anyone else has a link to it let me know!

I will pull out  the JTTH binder later and see if I can upload some pics or at least give more details on the JTTH material. 

This series on RG has a peak into some of the Wisdom Booklets, but that's all I've got off the top of my head. 

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Waffle Time
PumaLover
I will pull out  the JTTH binder later and see if I can upload some pics or at least give more details on the JTTH material. 
This series on RG has a peak into some of the Wisdom Booklets, but that's all I've got off the top of my head. 

This is so interesting!! Thank you for sharing and I look forward to reading your additional posts.

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formergothardite
1 hour ago, Marionette said:

In my experience, and contrary to what seems to be popular belief, most of the Bateses are really stand-offish and often rude

They do know how to put on the charm when necessary, but they aren't universally loved here. :laughing-jumpingpurple: 

My main memory of the conference was just pure exhaustion. You stayed up late and got up super early. I was there in the 90's when there were a bazillion members, but I ended up teaching pre-EXCEL(do they still really do that since they don't do EXCEL anymore?), so I didn't get a good idea of what they were teaching in the student classes. 

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punkiepie

@Marionette welcome to Fj and thank for all your stories!  I have a questions about Big Sandy, but first let me explain why. Back in my youthful IFB days, my church would send all of the “young people” to a leadership conference at a very fundie bible college (it was the “young people”, because youth groups were bad).  My church would pay for it, but we all had to memorize a chapter of the Bible each year- one that the deacons chose, so it was never something short. So during the conference, this very fundie college would loosen the reins a bit and be more open/liberal than they were for the other 51 weeks of the year. And by more open/liberal, I mean they allowed the guitar to be played along with the piano during the singing, in one of the sessions we would sing a song that was written after 1900 and not technically a classic hymn, we were allowed to sit next to members of the opposite sex during sessions (so long as they were from one’s own church group), the boys didn’t have to wear ties during daytime sessions, just at night, girls could wear loose pants when visiting the cafeteria or while in our dorms, and we didn’t have to be back in our dorms until 10pm.  A lot of these things were done as a recruitment tool to get us to go to college there; it was the classic bait and switch.  They made it seem like they weren’t  so strict so that we would be more inclined to want to attend college there.  So my question is, do you feel like the leaders at Big sandy tone it down some in order to appear more in touch, less severe, and legalistically focused? Like, is this an effort to recruit new families who haven’t fully embraced IBLP, or is it more oriented towards firing up their base group of members? 

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ChickenettiLuvr

Now THIS is what I'm talking about!!

I've been looking for a good diversion recently. And here we go. Wheeee!!!

Thanks for the memories of conference, @formergothardite. *Shudders* *all the bright countenances*

Welcome, @Marionette. Glad you're here.

Which jesus college, @punkiepie? Sounds like one I visited... Back in the day.

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Marionette
2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

They do know how to put on the charm when necessary, but they aren't universally loved here. :laughing-jumpingpurple: 

My main memory of the conference was just pure exhaustion. You stayed up late and got up super early. I was there in the 90's when there were a bazillion members, but I ended up teaching pre-EXCEL(do they still really do that since they don't do EXCEL anymore?), so I didn't get a good idea of what they were teaching in the student classes. 

Haha! At least y'all can see it. The fan blogs just shower the Bateses with praise and how they're waaay nicer than the Duggars (from what they see on tv). I'm going to be honest and say I don't think the Duggars or anyone on TLC are well-represented. UPtv aims to be family friendly and the setting/style just makes them look nicer and more "normal," when they are on the same level as the Duggars. It doesn't matter if they have somewhat more-lenient courtship rules.

My first year, when we still had to wear all white & black, was eleventy times stressful because everyone looked the same, and it was so easy to get lost in the crowd -- on top of the exhausting schedule! :lol: They still do pre-EXCEL, but it was renamed pre-Embassy in 2013. I have no idea why. People still call it pre-EXCEL, because they are used to it.

I attended COMMIT for 2 years, and helped out with it for one year (they were short on leaders). The other years, I did sessions-only. I never particularly enjoyed the student sessions because they seemed to be all about how to find someone to marry. Oh, and that we should go on JTTH, to In the Gap, join RiseUp discipleship, ALERT/STEP, etc.

1 hour ago, punkiepie said:

@Marionette welcome to Fj and thank for all your stories! So my question is, do you feel like the leaders at Big sandy tone it down some in order to appear more in touch, less severe, and legalistically focused? Like, is this an effort to recruit new families who haven’t fully embraced IBLP, or is it more oriented towards firing up their base group of members? 

Thank you! I'm glad to be of help. I'll be honest that I hesitated joining, but I wanted to join in on the conversation. 

Oh, I've had that experience many times with Bible colleges. :my_confused: I'm college age, so the last 5 years of my life were about which Bible college I can go to so I can find a fundie husband!! (NO!! I'm so over it!)

My first or second year (c. 2013-14), there was talk of the ATI program being revised (I've not heard anything about it since), and they also wanted to broaden the scope of their attendees by dropping ATI and labelling it a family conference. Now they advertise it for "families who want to grow closer to each other and God" or something along those lines. As far as Big Sandy goes, it is during the regular school year, so the turnout is probably 99.9% homeschooling families. Those non-ATI-background families are fundie-lite, they wear pants in their everyday lives and listen to pop music, but are still doctrinally conservative. I don't believe I've ever seen any mainstream/moderate-type people there. 

In addition to that, they do try really hard to emphasize how they "only teach God's rules!!11! not Bill Gothard's, though Gothard is a really good man!!1!!!!11" So I would say they are definitely trying to get new recruits by seeming a little more "normal," though they could be trying to fire up their current followers as well by trying to remind them that it's not a cult!!!11! :my_biggrin:

 

Edited by Marionette
added more stuff!
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JillyO

I just wanted to mention that there is actually a Bates sighting in one of the Alert Instagram posts @VelociRapture posted yesterday. I can't tell them apart, but it's one of the boys from the Jackson/Warden/Isaiah group (in the black long-sleeve shirt):

 

Big Sandy.jpg

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Dandruff

That looks like Jackson Bates, and I believe James and Jason Duggar.

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quiversR4hunting
5 hours ago, Marionette said:

Saturday we drove back to HQ, where Gothard offered to anoint us with olive oil.

I am very surprised by this! that is very close to how Catholics do anointing of the sick, confirmation, baptism or into holy life. 

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JillyO
2 hours ago, Dandruff said:

That looks like Jackson Bates, and I believe James and Jason Duggar.

I can't tell the howlers apart, but you're right, there appear to be two Duggar boys in that picture as well. The one in the back row is wearing one of their ridiculous "Duggar studios" t-shirts.

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neurogirl

@Marionette This is more of a minor question but were there any grumbles or furtive complaints about the boy activities being more fun than the girl activities? Were any girls jealous that their brothers got to run around pretending to be military while they had to work on devotionals or something? Additionally, I always imagined the conference to be something of a fundie meat market. But maybe I'm wrong because the ALERT boys can't speak with women? 

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Palimpsest

Thanks, @Marionette, for all the information.  I'm just going to pick out a few things to comment on.

15 hours ago, Marionette said:

I don't actually know a lot about the people on the board, but Tim Levendusky kind seemed to take Gothard's place in the introduction prayer & lecture of the conference. I heard his name a lot. The Paine & Bates parents are very involved, too, though.

Some of us at FJ probably followed the ousting of Gothard a lot more closely than the followers of IBLP did.  But essentially Levendusky, Stephen Paine, and Gil Bates are the leadership of IBLP these days.  Plus the mysterious Pastor David York.  Have you ever heard of him?  I thought not.  He may be a rubber stamp on the board.

The info dribbled out over months but here's a summary.  When the accusations against Gothard first started coming out there was an 7 member board (plus Gothard as president).  It was stacked with octogenarian rubber stamps but York, Paine, and Bates were the newest and youngest members.  

Gothard was asked to step down pending the results of the (flawed and biased) investigation of the claims by David Gill, Sr.  Gill, Sr. decided that the claims were unfounded but that Gothard had acted unwisely giving the appearance of wrong-doing.   

The board split in two.  One member (an octogenarian lawyer) quit immediately, but the rest split into keep Gothard and dump Gothard as a liability factions.  The dump Gothard faction (Bates, Paine, York) won.  Gothard was furious because he thought he had only stepped down temporarily but his side lost, and all the other MoB resigned.

It was a complete coup by Bates, Paine and York.  And a power grab.  They then bought on Levendusky as President.  I suspect partly because he is a better public speaker, but also probably as a cover so that Bates, Paine, and York couldn't be accused of a hostile takeover of the cult.

The present board is still these four men.  They have not expanded it at all, and it is unusually small for a 501(c)3 as big as ILBP.  They don't want to risk losing control themselves, IMO.

So they are rebranding and Gil Bates is at the very top of the compost pile, along with Chad Paine's father.  Let's not forget that.

Quote

As far as David Waller's gen, the names that stand out to me are Robert Staddon and Gabe Cleator.

Thanks, we've had our eyes on them. :)  I've always thought that Waller has his eye on the top and that he knows where the skeletons are buried.  Do you know if Gabe Cleator is a good speaker?  He looks so young!

15 hours ago, Marionette said:

They still promote IBLP programs with video trailers in between sessions, and they have booths set up/ushers pass out brochures to get more info. JTTH (which has been rewritten/revised, btw), Prison JTTH, RiseUp Discipleship, Verity Institute, ALERT, STEP, etc. 

The bolded one is new to me.  Can anyone clarify what it is?

11 hours ago, formergothardite said:

They do know how to put on the charm when necessary, but they aren't universally loved here. 

When I read the bit about the Bateses being rude and standoffish, I got a mental picture of you jumping up and down shouting, "Yes, yes, yes, YES!!!":laughing-jumpingpurple: 

9 hours ago, Marionette said:

Thank you! I'm glad to be of help. I'll be honest that I hesitated joining, but I wanted to join in on the conversation. 

I'm glad you did.  We are mostly very nice and many of us are in recovery from fundamentalism or other strange religious practices. :)

Quote

In addition to that, they do try really hard to emphasize how they "only teach God's rules!!11! not Bill Gothard's, though Gothard is a really good man!!1!!!!11" So I would say they are definitely trying to get new recruits by seeming a little more "normal," though they could be trying to fire up their current followers as well by trying to remind them that it's not a cult!!!11! :my_biggrin:

I'll bet that is true.

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Marionette
9 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

I am very surprised by this! that is very close to how Catholics do anointing of the sick, confirmation, baptism or into holy life. 

I've heard of IFBaptists practicing it for sickness, as it is in the New Testament. "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:" (James 5:14). Though that was obviously not the case... I know anointing is otherwise something outlined for the Jews in the Old Testament (in Exodus). Other than the fact that Gothard's teachings are very rooted in the Law of Moses, I have no idea what his reasons were.

5 hours ago, neurogirl said:

@Marionette This is more of a minor question but were there any grumbles or furtive complaints about the boy activities being more fun than the girl activities? Were any girls jealous that their brothers got to run around pretending to be military while they had to work on devotionals or something? Additionally, I always imagined the conference to be something of a fundie meat market. But maybe I'm wrong because the ALERT boys can't speak with women? 

I believe there were some girls who wished they could climb the wall or go to the lake, but I don't remember any specific instances where I actually heard  any complaints about it. Everyone gets to do those things in the fall at the Family Camp, where it's less segregated. 

No, it totally is! The ALERT guys may be excluded but there are several other guys that girls just FLOCK around. So many people in ATI have found SO's there, that I think  a lot of young people expect the same. There is even a joke about the concession stand line because of Josh & Anna. 

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Marionette
1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Some of us at FJ probably followed the ousting of Gothard a lot more closely than the followers of IBLP did.  But essentially Levendusky, Stephen Paine, and Gil Bates are the leadership of IBLP these days.  Plus the mysterious Pastor David York.  Have you ever heard of him?  I thought not.  He may be a rubber stamp on the board. So they are rebranding and Gil Bates is at the very top of the compost pile, along with Chad Paine's father.  Let's not forget that.

Thanks, we've had our eyes on them. :)  I've always thought that Waller has his eye on the top and that he knows where the skeletons are buried.  Do you know if Gabe Cleator is a good speaker?  He looks so young!

The bolded one is new to me.  Can anyone clarify what it is?

I'm glad you did.  We are mostly very nice and many of us are in recovery from fundamentalism or other strange religious practices. :)

I think you are right. I only read up a little on what was going on, but most of my friends didn't because they couldn't believe the "lies" about Gothard. On the other hand, one friend told me that her dad was going to burn all of the IBLP/ATI materials, and they stopped attending the conferences.

I don't think I realized Gil was on the board until about 2 years ago. What I do know is that the Paine, Bates, and Duggar parents stood on the stage during the introduction of the conference since Gothard has been gone, so I did know of the Paines' involvement. Wasn't Chris Hogan the new president for a year or two? I just noticed yesterday that he's no longer on the board :lol: Also,  I am unfamiliar with David York. :my_confused:

Gabe is very lively/enthusiastic/energetic. He looks young, acts young, etc., but I think he's actually in his late 20s. I thought he was like 16-18 when I first saw him. :laughing-jumpingpurple: As far as his speaking, I mean, I guess he's a good one. A super excited one, though, not nervous or anything.

RiseUp Discipleship is actually something they just started about two years ago. It is an internet-based program led by the Keilen twins and a few other 30yo IBLP staffers (I know them, but not sure how familiar y'all are with the staff). You are assigned to a group led by one of the four of them, accountability coaches, and you participate in weekly one-on-one phone calls as well as Skype group chats. I think the course takes about 9 weeks to complete. 

Yes, I actually appreciate how most of you are very respectful and can speak factually, and perhaps objectively? (not sure if that is the word I'm looking for) about the issues on the table.  Add me to the bunch, I grew up fundamentalist and I've questioned it for years, even while attending these conferences. I'm still a Christian, but leaning more moderate and will probably just go non-denominational or something. It's a process, especially since I've only recently addressed these things to myself in the past year. Might I add, it's been good to see other Christians on here, too. I don't know, might just be something about how we were taught that true Christians would only be fundie, and they would never be against it. 

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Palimpsest
17 minutes ago, Marionette said:

I think you are right. I only read up a little on what was going on, but most of my friends didn't because they couldn't believe the "lies" about Gothard. On the other hand, one friend told me that her dad was going to burn all of the IBLP/ATI materials, and they stopped attending the conferences.

Ha!  Good for them.

Quote

I don't think I realized Gil was on the board until about 2 years ago. What I do know is that the Paine, Bates, and Duggar parents stood on the stage during the introduction of the conference since Gothard has been gone, so I did know of the Paines' involvement. Wasn't Chris Hogan the new president for a year or two? I just noticed yesterday that he's no longer on the board :lol: Also,  I am unfamiliar with David York. :my_confused:

 

Gil Bates was put on the board in mid-2013.  Dr. Paine has been on there since mid-2012.  (I have the exact dates somewhere).  And you are testing my memory because I can't remember which of them replaced Chris Hogan on the BOD. :D

No, Chris Hogan was never officially named president.  They went straight for Levendusky after ousting Gothard in early 2014. Hogan was named in the law suit as a former board member so it wouldn't have been a good idea (legally or optic-wise) to name him as President.  My guess is that Levendusky's hands were clean because he spent most of his career in the mission field and had never been an official board member. 

However, Hogan is exactly the sort of person I would expect to have been put on a new expanded BoD after a couple of years.  It could be that he is ambivalent about the ousting of Gothard or the rebranding going on.

The mystery of David York continues. :)

Quote

Gabe is very lively/enthusiastic/energetic. He looks young, acts young, etc., but I think he's actually in his late 20s. I thought he was like 16-18 when I first saw him. :laughing-jumpingpurple: As far as his speaking, I mean, I guess he's a good one. A super excited one, though, not nervous or anything.

He looked rather over-caffeined in a short clip I saw somewhere.  Gabe got married last year.  Sarah somebody.  I've forgotten.

Quote

RiseUp Discipleship is actually something they just started about two years ago. It is an internet-based program led by the Keilen twins and a few other 30yo IBLP staffers (I know them, but not sure how familiar y'all are with the staff). You are assigned to a group led by one of the four of them, accountability coaches, and you participate in weekly one-on-one phone calls as well as Skype group chats. I think the course takes about 9 weeks to complete. 

Thanks.  Doesn't sound like much fun.

We know some of the staff.  There is obviously a big Staddon and Keilen presence on staff, and David's brother Adam and a sister also work with ATI, IIRC.  

I had the impression that only the ATI function moved to Big Sandy (to join the ALERT crowd) and the rest of the HQ staff stayed in Chicago.  Do you know if that is true?

Quote

Yes, I actually appreciate how most of you are very respectful and can speak factually, and perhaps objectively? (not sure if that is the word I'm looking for) about the issues on the table.  Add me to the bunch, I grew up fundamentalist and I've questioned it for years, even while attending these conferences. I'm still a Christian, but leaning more moderate and will probably just go non-denominational or something. It's a process, especially since I've only recently addressed these things to myself in the past year. Might I add, it's been good to see other Christians on here, too. I don't know, might just be something about how we were taught that true Christians would only be fundie, and they would never be against it. 

We like people who question extreme fundamentalism and wrong beliefs.  We are a mixed bunch and very diverse.    Some of us are politer than others and some of us can be very blunt.  :angelic-halofell: 

Expect all beliefs - and non-believers - and an international membership.  There are many Christians, even some who identify as Fundie, Fundie-lite, or very conservative Christian, here.  Just try not to take things personally if you ever get called out, and don't say that Catholics aren't Christians or that atheists are going to hell, and you should be fine.

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punkiepie

@ChickenettiLuvr It was Baptist Bible College.  I forgot to mention that I frequently had to go back to my dorm room and change because of dress code violations. I had a habit of wearing sluttish long skirts that were too "busy" and drew the eye downward instead of up to my face, where it should be. 

@Marionette Thank you for all your answers!  

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Marionette
50 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

However, Hogan is exactly the sort of person I would expect to have been put on a new expanded BoD after a couple of years.  It could be that he is ambivalent about the ousting of Gothard or the rebranding going on.

Last I heard of the Hogans, some of the daughters were working at In The Gap. I haven't seen or heard much of the parents or other kids in a few years.

50 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

He looked rather over-caffeined in a short clip I saw somewhere.  Gabe got married last year.  Sarah somebody.  I've forgotten.

:laughing-jumpingpurple: It's the joy of the Lord! Oh yeah, I had forgotten he was engaged last year. I don't think I knew her. 

51 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I had the impression that only the ATI function moved to Big Sandy (to join the ALERT crowd) and the rest of the HQ staff stayed in Chicago.  Do you know if that is true?

I thought they announced they were moving the entire staff/HQ down to Big Sandy, but I guess not. Must just be the ATI people. They may not have enough actual housing for everyone, anyway. Though technically there are tons of dorms and cabins from when the campus was Worldwide Church of God's Ambassador College. I know there are a few trailer houses on the outside of the campground, but I have no idea who occupies those. Probably ALERT staff.

51 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Expect all beliefs - and non-believers - and an international membership.  There are many Christians, even some who identify as Fundie, Fundie-lite, or very conservative Christian, here.  Just try not to take things personally if you ever get called out,

I don't think it will be a problem (hopefully). I've been reading here for a long time so I know what to expect, and I always try to play it safe when discussing controversial beliefs. I do enjoy reading others' perspectives, whether I agree or not. 

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Waffle Time
Palimpsest
9 minutes ago, Marionette said:

I thought they announced they were moving the entire staff/HQ down to Big Sandy, but I guess not. Must just be the ATI people.

They did announce that in 2014.  They were supposed to be selling all the property in IL and making a big move.  However, an awful lot of the HQ staff is apparently still in and around Oakbrook even though the old HQ building is shuttered.

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feministxtian
1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Some of us are politer than others and some of us can be very blunt

Whatchu tryin to say??? 

@Marionette I'm one of the sorta, kinda semi-fundie types on here...it would take a book to intelligently lay out what I believe and why...but...I've also got some of the most "colorful" vocabulary here...so if you don't mind blistering your eyeballs...See, I'm a retired Navy wife...ever heard of the saying "cuss like a sailor"? Well, a sailor's colorful language can't hold a candle to a sailor's wife's colorful vocabulary...comes from raising kids alone for months on end. 

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formergothardite

I have been searching for pics of this years conference. 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

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Palimpsest
1 minute ago, feministxtian said:

Whatchu tryin to say??? 

I meant me!  

I admit that I don't suffer fools gladly and can get a bit cranky.  But it is really very easy to stay on my good side.  :lol:

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