IBLP Calls Cops on Bill Gothard for Trespass

[Marionette]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the money/tax thing, but from my time at HQ for JTTH, I found out that all (or most?) of the staff are employed as "volunteers," but they got paid every week as a "gift" so that it would not have to be taxed. I don't know if there were different variations of pay based on their rank of employment. The young girls I had talked to didn't get paid that much (especially compared to a real job), though they were provided housing & food in addition to their monetary "gift."

[wendy-sparkles]

The link in his bio is to subscribe to his channel. Sneaky!

[formergothardite]

Tim Lee was a speaker at the conference and his FB page shows pictures of the Bates.

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Tatar-tot]

That is illegal scam to circumvent the tax laws. Report to the Texas/Illinois taxwages as well as the IRS & Social Security.

The scam also allows the employer an opportunity to avoid SUTA/FUTA/Workman’s Comp.

Oh my!  These Godly people need to read the Bible and focus on the sections regarding paying TAXES! 

[formergothardite]

IBLP was built on the backs of unpaid teens. Not only did IBLP not pay the teens that kept the training centers running, the parents paid for the privilege of their children working there. I'm not sure how it was even legal since education was not a priority and the teens worked long hours. 

[Palimpsest]

On 5/5/2018 at 10:33 AM, formergothardite said:

Tim Lee was a speaker at the conference and his FB page shows pictures of the Bates.

  Hide contents

 

 

 

This Tim Lee?

http://www.timlee.org/

[formergothardite]

Looks like that is the Tim Lee. 

I thought the Pineapple Story missionary was dead, but he appears to be very much alive and speaking at the Northwoods Conference. 

[HereticHick]

Who will James Staddon stay with when he's lecturing at Crown College? Do the Bates have a spare bedroom?  

Hope Katie Bates doesn't catch his eye

[JermajestyDuggar]

22 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Who will James Staddon stay with when he's lecturing at Crown College? Do the Bates have a spare bedroom?  

Hope Katie Bates doesn't catch his eye

I don’t think a Staddon would ever go after a Bates. 

[barnacles]

*Internet Speculation Bandwagon Approaching*

I'm left wondering about Gothard's mental status at this point.  TBH, I wonder if he doesn't have a touch of dementia setting in.  He randomly decides to make a day's long journey to a place any reasonable person would know they aren't welcome, heads straight to the front row, and behaves like nothing ever happened.  Following that, the cop would not let him get behind the wheel to leave, so I assume the cop deemed him to be impaired in some way. 

While this trip and his behavior (I'm here now.  You will act like my previous transgressions never happened.  Now start delivering the power and adoration we all know I"m entitled to) can easily be attributed to a raging personality disorder,  the fact that the officer wouldn't let him get behind the wheel makes me think there may be some other issues in play as well. 

When my grandfather was in the early stages of Alzheimers, he tried to make several nighttime journeys to his old haunts, like he was going to visit the boys at the pub like it was 1960 again.  Eventually we had to yank the spark plug out of his car and put alarms on the doors. 

I may be grasping at straws to explain this stunt of Gothard's, but I do wonder about what's really going on in his head.

[barnacles]

Alfred,

You need to accept that Gothard is just not that into you, sweaty.  You are simply not his type.  Only waify young blondes get invited to headquarters.  You will never get a look at what's under his "umbrella of authority".  The sooner you can accept this and move on, the better it is for everyone.

[quiversR4hunting]

On 5/5/2018 at 11:04 AM, formergothardite said:

IBLP was built on the backs of unpaid teens. Not only did IBLP not pay the teens that kept the training centers running, the parents paid for the privilege of their children working there. I'm not sure how it was even legal since education was not a priority and the teens worked long hours. 

Gee, what other cult does this sound like? Hmmm Scientology? FLDS? 

Keeping people uneducated is key to keeping a cult "thriving"

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, barnacles said:

While this trip and his behavior (I'm here now.  You will act like my previous transgressions never happened.  Now start delivering the power and adoration we all know I"m entitled to) can easily be attributed to a raging personality disorder,  the fact that the officer wouldn't let him get behind the wheel makes me think there may be some other issues in play as well. 

Gothard could have just been obviously upset, weeping in distress or raging in anger, and not necessarily showing signs of being cognitively impaired.

On the other hand, I agree.  This escapade certainly demonstrates a lack of judgement in Gothard that could also be attributed to a raging personality disorder or the onset of dementia.

I looked back at Alfred's account of the Big Sandy contretemps again.  Either I skimmed it too quickly the first time or he has embellished it since I last looked.  I also scrolled through all the comments for my sins.  Alfie is obviously not cyber-savvy because they are all dated May 1st but there are many more since the last time I looked.

Fascinatingly, a city employee from Big Sandy chimed in with the information that anyone can get hold of the police officer's recording of Bill's being presented with a citation.  It is public record apparently.  I'm not convinced Alfred was happy about that news.

Interestingly, not a single comment on DG actually confirms Alfred's narrative of the events of that day.  You would think that some of those people who were so happy to see the old man would have chimed in to confirm the story and bemoan the way he was treated.  But no.  Although comments by Robyn and David still support Gothard and think the DoD done him wrong, they weren't there. 

The rest of the comments challenge Alfred.  Rob Wall and Larne Gabriel continue their efforts (it seems Larne met with Gothard in Denver after he was dumped, but before the lawsuit was filed, and wasn't impressed.  Larne also keeps harking back to the 80s accusations.)  Rob War points out that Gothard and his present supporters should throw their own conference and see how many people attend.  Don't be funny, Rob.

Beth's comments are interesting.  She seems to have an insider's take on what happened at Big Sandy and challenges many of Alfred's claims.  She points out that the ALERT officer who challenged BG with the "rehearsed" question is in fact a senior instructor and an IBLP director, not some "kid."  

I also found this very interesting (my bolding):

Quote

 

Beth

May 1, 2018    

Around that time, the motion was filed by Bill to have Gibbs III removed. This particular filing was like 150 pages and includes LOTS of “exhibits”. I believe it was in this one that Bill stated that the Board members were hired only for their willingness to do as he said, that they were incompetent apart from him, and were scheming to steal IBLP resources and assets for their personal benefit. Maybe this didn’t set Bill of on the right foot. 

 

Well, now that confirms my opinion of the BoD under BG.  And it really wouldn't set Bill off on the right foot for reconciliation, would it?

[formergothardite]

RG has some comments that reveal exactly how much this empire is worth and would explain why Gothard is desperate to get back in, especially now that he appears to be broke.

Spoiler

 

kevin May 4, 2018

Mark,
They may be able to keep going a lot longer than one might expect. I recall that the book value of the real estate holdings were something in the range of $ 90 million a few years back. Book value is not the same as market value. Market value often vastly exceeds book value. Given that many of these holdings have been owned for decades, this is likely the case, with a market value exceeding book value. Selling the real estate little by little could keep them going for decades. If it were re-invested in income producing properties, it could keep them going indefinitely.
The annual losses shown on the tax return are also misleading. Depreciation is shown as a loss, for tax return purposes. So, if they show a 4 million loss one year, but 2 million in depreciation, that is only really a 2 million operating loss. If they consolidate to Big Sandy, the operating expenses will be cut drastically. Even if they operate at 1 million in the red annually, that could probably be sustained for a long, long time, by selling off the holdings gradually.
One thing that Gothard was really good at was keeping expenses really low and plowing the profits into real estate. He built IBLP's own little real estate empire.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Gothard had some form of dementia, but at the same time, his behavior is really not that off the wall for him. Gothard always knew how to manipulate the situation and I think that is what he was attempting here. Go in, get attention, and slowly work himself back into power. The flaw in his plan is that he has continually underestimated the BoD. They aren't going to give in to him or give up IBLP. 

[Coconut Flan]

11 hours ago, barnacles said:

I may be grasping at straws to explain this stunt of Gothard's, but I do wonder about what's really going on in his head.

I don't think you are.  Being in the early stages of dementia was the first thing that popped into my mind also. 

[Howl]

7 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Gee, what other cult does this sound like? Hmmm Scientology? FLDS? 

Keeping people uneducated is key to keeping a cult "thriving"

I'd add that the combination of keeping people uneducated and overworked keeps cults going.  Exhibit A: Scientology's Sea Org. 

[Marionette]

On 5/5/2018 at 10:04 AM, formergothardite said:

IBLP was built on the backs of unpaid teens. Not only did IBLP not pay the teens that kept the training centers running, the parents paid for the privilege of their children working there. I'm not sure how it was even legal since education was not a priority and the teens worked long hours. 

'Tis a blessing and a privilege to work alongside Mr. G, as they so affectionately called him. Gosh, I remember being at HQ, and the staff WORSHIPED the ground he walked on. It gets weirder the more I think about it and the further I get away from it. Ugh. And what did these people benefit other than being in the IBLP "in" crowd? Some of their daughters were sexually harassed, and the rest are in denial!

 

7 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Keeping people uneducated is key to keeping a cult "thriving"

Totally! Because IBLP actually teaches to KEEP YOUR CHILDREN IGNORANT of "the things of the world." That is why ATI gives such a screwed up education. How are your kids supposed to function as adults, when they literally don't know anything about what's "out there"? This is why they never question it. They're not allowed to, and they wouldn't even THINK to. Gotta stay under that authority and take dad's/BG's word for it! They're all just robots & clones, whether they admit or not.

[Howl]

When I first got familiar with fj and was also reading a lot at  homeschoolers anonymous, I recall a quote from one dad whose kids were schooled completely with ATI materials.  He said his kids had no ability to think things through or solve common everyday problems. None. His kids were teenagers by this point. He thought it was sad.

[apandaaries]

Just thought I might save a few of Alfie's comments (and those from a few others) for posterity. Here are some lovely ones: 

Spoiler

Dads and Moms and Grandpas and Grandmas and Aunts and Uncles and country pastors touch hair, hands, feet with no shame. And if your culture or heritage finds that uncomfortable, you DO know that it is not so elsewhere. See, there is no standard for “creepy” here. “Sexual harassment” is 100% in the eye of the beholder. The bottom line, if something makes you uncomfortable, you let it be known. THEN if it persists, then we have a problem.

Assuming you are an RG participant, check out Wendy Griffin Anderson’s tales . . . On the one hand, condemning Bill for holding her hand it both of his, gazing into her eyes, telling her all of the wonderful things God had planned for her, all while standing in front of the entire assembled staff. THEN she mentions how that when her brother came to visit, they were condemned for walking around campus . . .holding hands. Now SOME people consider brothers and sisters holding hands “creepy”. I mean, there are weird people who do perverted things with siblings. Knowing the woman, if you do, would you in any way imagine that there was anything out of line? I would not. BUT, if I hated her, and believed she was a charlatan to be taken down by any means necessary, why I would tell the tale of her wandering around holding hands with her brother. And if a bunch of other people hated her too, we would have an echo chamber of excitement.

Hypocrisy, not sure how to respond. Other than that, yeah, come older folks get to do things young people can’t in an organization. Meeting late at night, more with girls than boys? Tell me, of all the people YOU know that come for counseling, what percentage are girls vs. boys? Overwhelmingly female? Yup. There are many other reasons for those stats than “Bill likes girls”.

Labor laws? Now THERE is a handle, the most golden one, that lawyers would salivate over, looking for a payday. Did you know that IBLP was also sued in 1980 on the same charge? Then and now . . . No case could ever be built. Either the lawyers are idiots – which they emphatically are not, or, well, it just wasn’t true. It wasn’t. Stop passing on the lies of others.

Charges of “inappropriate” are a death knell for a person in Christian ministry. IF they are going to make the charge, they better support it. It has not, I don’t think it can. But now is the time to do so.

We have interviewed women at length about such things and were told, emphatically, it was absolutely not an issue. It BECAME an issue when aspersions were cast on Bill in article after article back in the 2013 timeframe geared to smear Bill as much as possible. All those accusers have disappeared. And if they had kept going, they would have gotten sued for defamation.

Spoiler

I’m sorry but it is one thing for a parent to hold hands or pat a upset child it in quite another for someone else. I am sure you would not feel the same if it was you daughter, and if you do then you need serious help.

 

We don’t think we need serious help. Look back at the picture I took and posted above, why the entire audience did not leap to its feet in disgust and condemnation. 40 years of that play. The perversion of our society has cast doubt on some of the most innocent of things. For us to rise up in self-righteous anger would then be a matter of judging according to the flesh, not after God’s unchanging righteousness.

Titus 1:15 is, I think, referring to this corruption of ALL things wholesome as sex begins to run rampant: “Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.”

One of the reasons we lost the “holy kiss”, which is not a suggestion but an imperative in Scripture.

BTW in the last couple of days we have received two different reports from long time staff women for Bill, detailing how girls would routinely seek Bill out, find endless excuses for counseling, inventing ways to find Bill alone which the attending staff was working to ensure didn’t happen . . . grab his hand in theirs. Among the plaintiffs are those who were known for that. Our guess is that was absolutely not a sexual thing, but it was driven by a need for affirmation in a young, troubled woman. Context and motivation is everything. Unless we are prepared to condemn others for surface appearances.

My comments: Way to blame victims and refuse to show receipts!  

Spoiler

What does “reconciliation” mean to Bill? If he and you for him have always claimed that he “did nothing wrong” then why then the so called “effort” to reconcile if Bill thinks and claims he did nothing wrong? Is he trying to seek genuine forgiveness of things “he did wrong” or is he trying to shut people up in the name of reconciliation? Looking at the history of Bill going all the way back to the 1980’s sex scandal, it never looks like Bill think he ever did anything wrong. Looking at the failed attempts in Denver with the old employees like Larne, it doesn’t look like he thinks he does anything wrong or can admit to it. All these previous “reconciliation” attempts fail because of Bill. The same with attempts by theologians to talk with Bill about his teaching. Bill’s history is not good in this area.

Spoiler

That’s funny Alfred I don’t remember seeing you in Denver, your “SO not about reconciliation” is a clueless comment. All you have is whatever Bill told you, there were five more in the room. Reconciliation first has to start with confession and repentance, then forgiveness and lastly restitution Luke 17:4, Matthew 18:15-35(not necessarily money, and BTW none was asked for or wanted, even when our expenses were offered we refused IBLP’s offer, we paid for our own transportation, the meeting room and lodging, I can’t speak for Gary since Bill invited him). My history with Bill since the scandal is that he wants to go right to reconciliation and skip the dirty part of confession and repentance. His desire is to change the narrative to fit his justification of the offenses so he can continue in his ministry without the restrictions of 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 and thus be unqualified.

For the record reconciliation was the goal and continued on that path for a year until it became evident that Bill had no interest in truly fulfilling the responsibilities to accomplish that end. (We would still consider it today but it would require much more stringent set of conditions.) It was 5 months later that the lawsuit was filed which came as a surprise to all of us. You can believe that or not, but its still true.

Alfie's comments:No part of your comment addressed “1970’s and 1980’s people trying to settle 1970’s and 1980’s scores”. Brother, your story is yours and no person can know your bitterness or intermeddle with your joy. But . . . To make THAT the cornerstone of this “reconciliation” effort . . . Ignoring ALL of the current issues that are the reason Bill was pushed out . . . That was not wise. I suspect the Board would have hoped that your friendship/relationship with Bill and knowledge of him would allow you to help them SOLVE the current issues. Contact the women, bring them to Bill, work out the right things to say and do, make sure the real issues are dealt with. Instead . . . I am sorry . . . We have Tony Guhr roar out of retirement and demand that Bill appologize to all of the people that got his “Agent” letter lo these 40 years ago. Which, BTW, he did! All that energy . . . And I am thinking Tony will NEVER be reconciled. Since I suspect he has never reconciled with his church leadership over the issues that got him rejected about the same time. But, again, this is us old people. Why, Oh, why not let go of that, leave it to Jesus to answer on that coming day, and help the Board NOW?!

My notes: Italics for the truly hideous part of this "defense" of BG.

Spoiler

[part of this comment is redacted, but it's all Alfie]

2). Bill is a “Father” to so many in this ministry, a ministry which is, has been, and always will be his personal ministry. Why should the Board members, most chosen for their status as his “children”, not obey him?

1 Corinthians 4:14-16
“I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.”

3). Frankly, Bill alleges that he was not told to not come “to Big Sandy”. He asked to come to Nashville and was told police would be called. He came as a private citizen to Texas, paid a bunch of money to become a participant, did not cause a ruckus, played inside the lines. When they demanded he leave he demanded to be allowed to talk to the Board. They agree, relented, set a time. Which makes the business with the policeman all the more puzzling. Why we hoped the Board would give us their side of things. Bill’s lawyer is pondering that too.

So . . . It isn’t as clearcut as you think it to be.

My notes: Thanks, Alfie. Now we see that BG was deliberately playing the role of obtuse ass.

Another commenter: So Bill is claiming that he was told that he couldn’t not come to Big Sandy. Alfred, Bill was directly told not to come to any IBLP function or properties and you stated above that he had to have his lawyers with him to clean out his desk. This is so disingenuous that the more you try to defend everything he does, the more crooked and twisted Bill looks. Of course they are going to “take his money” at the check in. They need the money. To bring in George Muller who was of a different time period and even from PB anti-clerical group is not a justification of Bill disobeying orders. As sad as I think this whole fiasco is, it is also ironically funny that he who taught authoritarianism is cited by the police (who act on the authority of the government, read Romans) for disobedience. The gossip magazine InTouch just took up this story on line. Usually they focus on the Duggars. So now Bill has arrived in gossip columns. What a way to go.

Alfie's weak response: OK, you are running with partial info. At this point I do not know what exactly he was told or not told – that is Bill’s version.* And the “cleaning out of the desk” never happened. The one trip merely started cataloging things. Again, two years or even longer since he left. He has a desk and an office yet.

*My commentary: Ah! So only one person can run a blog with partial info. Good to know. Thanks.

Spoiler

Commenter: It takes a very special kind of obtuseness to refer to sexually molested young women as ” disgruntled former students.”

Fucking Alfie: True. But it is even more obtuse to refer to hand holding and the like as “sexual molestation”. Boy, that is what the law calls “defamation per se”. There is a reason all those charges in the lawsuit to that end failed to even get to stage two in the lawsuits . . . $8 million worth of exactly that. It didn’t happen. And to keep saying it did without any proof, hearsay, is a crime.

Spoiler

I like this person:  My favorite thing about this whole post is how you titled it like “The Devil Went Down to Georgia.” But you mean Texas, of course. And instead of a soul to steal, perhaps Bill’s looking for some gold to steal?  Or at least take back from the Paine-Bates family that appears to be sitting on the pot of gold that was Bill’s publishing empire. I’m sure he also wanted to be seen by the people there as well, as he probably misses their applause. Which, together with the pictures you posted, brings another solution to mind. Bill could move to Branson and play the doting old man in “Shepherd of the Hills”! It’s a great fit.

Spoiler

Well, let’s put it a different way. The man who gave up marriage and family, refusing to accept more than $20K/year in compensation in 50 years of tireless ministry, getting not more than 4 hours of sleep a night as he counseled and wrote and prepared, living his entire life in the family home he grew up in, driving old cars (I know of at least two that died in the few years we have been helping him) . . . Whose heart and ministry has drawn and and blessed 2.7 million alumni, 100,000 ATI participants . . . The one whose ministry collected assets worth hundreds of millions of debt free dollars . . .  [Alfie, you forgot tax free!] Of whom, to this day, a majority of Board members and current IBLP leadership openly confess as having had a life changing impact on them, still professing to “love” him . . . 83 years old . . . THAT man they positioned to be able to throw into jail because he set foot on in venues he was responsible for creating to meet with people who have been very worried about him and are thrilled to see him. THAT was a run-on sentence my grade school teacher warned me about, but, I am sorry, there it is.

Sorry, there is NO way to paint this in any favorable light for the IBLP leadership. It . . . Just . . . Stinks

Spoiler

Interesting conflation of Moses, Jesus, and BG: 

Reminds me some of Numbers 12. Moses senior staff – OK, his brother Aaron and sister Miriam – found that Moses had acted inappropriately with a woman, a black woman, that he had married, and started finding fault. No idea if that was because of her race, or something else, but it was when Moses was elderly. Read it for yourself . . . God came in out of the blue and called them all on the carpet. He spent 0% of His time on Moses and 100% of His time speaking angrily to the others. Basically the message was: Since you can see that I have favored Moses above you and everybody else around here with the ministry I have give him, why weren’t you afraid to start talking bad about him? And then spanked them hard.

Bill is not Moses, but I can’t help finding an interesting analogy. No matter how you slice it, it was not any of the Board members or other staffers that the world came trapping in to listen to for those 30 hour seminars, going again and again. There is nobody else on staff, helpers, speakers, book writers, material preparers that can start to compare in that department, though some have had substantial ministries of their own. It was . . . Bill. Bill is why they came, why they served, why they donated. As in the case of Numbers 12, the final analysis is God’s, and we drop in line on that as well. But it really, truly ought to take the breath of some away to find themselves in a position of having disrespected a man with those credentials . . . As they have done.

Spoiler

Beth, there is no stomach at any level for any apologies from Bill at this time. And you are speaking to someone who has drafted a great many such statements over the years in an effort to assist Bill in being reconciled. Try to imagine a family member slapping your Dad across the face, drawing blood and, because he screamed back, now nicely asks for an apology. It will take a bit of time to regain one’s Christian composure.

My comments: Good thing Jesus never endured something so terrible as having his father slapped in the face. Good to know his life was without suffering, so regaining Christian composure wasn't necessary. /sarcasm

Spoiler

This interesting bit from Larne: 

Things are worth fighting, for even as caretakers. In the eighties (If I remember right) Bill sued the State of Illinois regarding an “Eminent Domain” valuation issue for property IBYC owned on the NE corner of HW 83 and Odgen Ave, that the state wanted to improve that intersection. Again, if I recall, as a result of the lawsuit they received several million more than the State was offering, that’s good stewardship. Bill didn’t walk away from what he saw as an injustice. Just like he is not walking away now from his “perceived injustice” of the accusations against him. In his sanctions (his judgement) he is demanding $18,000ish and other things from each of the plaintiffs. In effect he is judging them for what they feel are rightful accusations. Why can’t he just be content to walk his walk and get his grace and mercy when his time comes, and let God be the final judge? Weren’t they your words?

Remember, Bill was placed on Administrative leave and then resigned after their stories were publish and the Gibbs investigation. In Denver, a couple months after his resignation, he told us he was glad and did not miss and was free of the administrative burden of his previous position. It was another year and a half before there was ever a lawsuit or any of the so-called collusion you claim. So, what happen to his new freedom in June 2014, that he needs to stage a public spectacle in Texas with a shout “I’m Back”!

I’ll tell you a little story. Our Denver meeting started on a Friday night went all day Saturday. Much was discussed, and a plan of reconciliation that included confession, repentance, and forgiveness and in some cases restitution (which included letters, meetings, no amounts of money was discussed and none of us wanted any of their money) was laid out and discussed. Gary started the next morning (Sunday) with a devotional and pray. I then asked Bill for a recap of how he saw his future ahead, considering what we discussed the previous two days. For the first time he got a big smile on his face and mentioned he had a billionaire who would fund his solution to the gang/murder problem in Chicago (You can read about part of it on his website, but it was given to us in much more detail). He than rambled on about his plan for what seemed forever. The five of us looked at each other in utter disbelief that he had not embraced anything from the previous two days. Finally, one of the participants spoke out and address the issue of his failure to see the bigger dilemma he was in. In the following year it became evident he had no interest in resolving either the distant or current past if it involved a complete repentance. What little we did get him to do was watered down and fought for tooth and nail. He didn’t accomplish tasks he said he did. All he cared about was his ministry and “be dammed” past offenses.

Alfred you see this has always been about him and his pride. Our discussions centered around unrepentant sin from our experiences with him, which we felt were part of his root problem. We did bring up some of the current issues he was facing. These were just manifestations of unresolved root problems that went back decades. Or desire and goal was to help in the healing of a man, so that would lead to the healing of those he had hurt and damaged both past and current. We were not there to help the Board or prolong the life of IBLP. We had found the Board and Administration to be completely unresponsive to our communications. (Gary had some contact with the BOD but he was there at Bill’s request.) We felt if the past issues were dealt with in a Biblical manner, then the current issues could follow next. Taking up an offense is difficult at best, so we stuck to our experiences.

Recently I was reading an article written by Ed Stetzer (Wheaton) in “Christianity Today” about a dispute at in the Southern Baptist Convention regarding an esteemed leader. While I am unfamiliar with him or the workings of the SBC, I was impressed by Mr. Stetzer conclusion that I thought was relevant here.

“……We spent more time taking victory laps than really leading. We let our history become mythology. We turned men into heroes, and then we turned our heroes into gods.” (link below)

May none of us turn our leaders into heroes and our heroes into gods. All Glory, Praise and Honor goes to the one who suffered and died then rose again and is coming back, the Lord Jesus Christ, YeShua HaMaShiach.

Okay, I give up for the night. There are so many more jewels in the comments, but duty calls me elsewhere. 

On another note, dementia is a terrible, terrible thing.  Having spent time with my beloved grandparents near their respective ends, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And since BG apparently left in the morning, he wasn't sundowning...

My evil sinner's heart truly hopes he is in full control of his faculties and now having to reckon with the consequences of his actions. I would like him to feel some remorse, but if he's storming Big Sandy, it doesn't sound like he has even begun the process of honestly considering his victims whatsoever in this matter. Nevertheless, he's still shut out of his kingdom.  I'd still like him to be accountable for his actions, and hope he gets there before he passes, but for now, I'll take a bit of joy in his ostracism. 

[barnacles]

Alfie makes me want to vomit like no other fundie can.  Not even Sideshow Douggie produces the degree of eyerolls from me like Alfie does.  

Some time ago, I remember reading another tirade from Alfie defending his boyfriend Bill Gothard.  Alfie not only admitted that he was aware of Gothard's preference for only the youngest, thinnest, and most beautiful ATI girls to be given a spot at HQ, he also admitted that his own daughter applied for a position and was rejected for being overweight.  Instead of doing what any normal parent would do, supporting his daughter, he doubled down and defended BG's right to reject her as being overweight showed a lack of character.  

His blind support of Gothard's obviously depraved and immoral behavior, to the point of gleefully throwing his own daughter under the bus, is revolting.  It's especially pathetic when you consider that Gothard has never reciprocated.  Alfie was never given a spot on the board or made a speaker at any of the conferences (to my knowledge).  His kids never made it to HQ or were highlighted in any of the JTTH or ATI newsletters as shining examples.  For reasons I can't discern, he remains devoted to being a one-man circle jerk to Gothard. 

 The mind...it boggles.

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, barnacles said:

he also admitted that his own daughter applied for a position and was rejected for being overweight.

Not only did one daughter get rejected for being overweight, Bill chose the skinnier sister who was less qualified for the job. Alfred was okay with this and was all "men like being around pretty women." Alfred is awful and Gothard doesn't even seem to care one shit about him. 

[Jezzable]

Esther Staddon on the video at 6:59 just about did me in. It's about staying under the umbrella of authority and also meditating. Poor thing is so brainwashed.

[quiversR4hunting]

37 minutes ago, Jezzable said:

Esther Staddon on the video at 6:59 just about did me in. It's about staying under the umbrella of authority and also meditating. Poor thing is so brainwashed.

After your comment I had to go watch the video. He says he hopes they save many people at the conference. Who in the hell is he trying to save? Everyone that attends is brainwashed into the cult!

I think the brother and Esther both need to have their sinus cavity looked at by a specialist. They are so nasal I assume they have a deviated septum or some such thing! 

[MadameOvary]

I confess I find it hard to tolerate Jill Duggar's unhealthy voice, but omg this Esther Staddon is something else. She sounds like a toddler, but maybe it's intentional? She seems well and truly brainwashed and perhaps her vocal development was stunted at the level of her independent thinking?

[Frank Castle]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Reading Marionette's posts in this thread convinced me to start posting. Anyhow, I'm very well informed as to what has been going on 2014-2017, and I still am in contact with lots of people in the IBLP circles. Feel free to ask me questions. If I should be posting this somewhere else just let me know...

 

I have a source who was at the conference and saw Big G.  There were not "hundreds of people" coming up to thank him or anything like that... 

 

Also: link to the dashcam of him being escorted off campus