Michael and Brandon Keilen: Part 4

[just_ordinary]

What annoys me sometimes is people thinking that they would probably love their miracle child so much it wouldn’t suffer. But I think most Fundies do love their children (or at least believe they love them). That is part of their destructive mindset that the harsh training is meant to ensure the children won’t break away and thereby end in hell. If you really believe your child would suffer for all eternity, you will do a lot to prevent that. This is one of the worst mind traps- how can you argument against it? You definitely can’t promise or prove that is not what is going to happen. Those cults really know how to lure you in and fuck your mind. 

I can definitely see Brandon and Michael believing along those lines. 

[Casserole]

I typically don't wish pain and suffering on people and MY GOD the pain of infertility and desperately wanting a child is real... but by hoping they get pregnant am I essentially wishing pain and suffering onto a poor innocent child? Yeah, probably. Brandon literally gets a paycheck from the cult. Their child(ren) would have 10x the pressure to be perfect little cult followers or otherwise be beaten. 

[Melissa1977]

I understand everyone saying that infertility is good as long as it avoids more kids being raised in a cult and trained harsh.

But I doubt it happens. I mean, there are high possibilities that Michael adopts. Because she HAS to be a SAHM, no other ways can be chosen. A woman unable to grieve for her infertility (forced to keep sweet) and who believes fertility is the highest blessing is a red flag as an adopting mother. Of course, she can be lovely, but bitterness can play a role. And I'm not sure they can face well some racial issues or the background of the kid.

In short, I'm sure she'll be a mother. And considering Bates beliefs, I think they may be better parents to a biological kid than to an adopted one.

 

[miss_batson]

Michaela had a birthday few days ago

And few older posts

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

[OyToTheVey]

It's weird how none of her siblings acknowledged her bday publicly.

[VineHeart137]

1 hour ago, OyToTheVey said:

It's weird how none of her siblings acknowledged her bday publicly.

Do the Bates kids usually do public birthday acknowledgements for each other? I feel like Kelly is the only one who does it regularly. I could be wrong though.

[miss_batson]

2 hours ago, VineHeart137 said:

Do the Bates kids usually do public birthday acknowledgements for each other? I feel like Kelly is the only one who does it regularly. I could be wrong though.

Kelly is regular but as i can remember sometimes they do congratulate b-days and anniversaries publicly. But Michaels b-day no one  of her siblings mentioned. ?

[meee]

Another year older and still childless. I feel so bad for her.

[luv2laugh]

I feel bad for her because her training was to do nothing except breed. Everyone around her in the cult is taught to breed. All of her many sisters are breeding.  She was never encouraged or allowed the option of anything else. 

The pain she feels must be deep, raw, and lonely. If she asked for help, she would be told to pray. I'm concerned that she may blame herself for some sin.

I am not sure she'd be allowed to try fertility medications or IVF. They probably are considering adoption but perhaps they are saving up the money for it as whether she did IVF or chose to adopt, it's very expensive.

I feel very, very sad for her because she's suffering and no one can relate to her in that environment. It doesn't help that she actually reads and responds to commentators on instagram who constantly ask her if she's pregnant or will adopt...

She spends her days sewing baby blankets for a baby she constantly prays for. It's so sad that it brings me to tears.

Also, right now her husband works for IBLP but we don't know what any of the futures hold for these couples. There's always the small hope that no matter how many years it takes, they'll leave fundamentalism... 

Edited January 27, 2019 by luv2laugh

[Vivi_music]

16 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I feel bad for her because her training was to do nothing except breed. Everyone around her in the cult is taught to breed. All of her many sisters are breeding.  She was never encouraged or allowed the option of anything else.

And that is the problem. They were raised with only one possible option: be a mother, have has many babies as you can. For parents like Kelly and Gil, or Boob and Michelle, I am sure they believe this lifestyle is God-approved, but it is also a way to control their children and make sure they won't ''stray''.

Yet QF parents never seem to have thought about the possibility that... yikes God might give one of their children an empty womb. I am certain it never crossed their mind because God would not punish one of their offspring that way... considering how good Christian they are. But because these Fundies don't believe in science and basic biology, well yes in a bunch of 20 something kids, it could be possible one ended a relationship, unable to conceive.

Of course Micheal must feel hurt. She followed all the rules, everything that was expected of her. And now, what is this young woman suppose to do? Accept in her heart the plan God has for her and her husband I suppose. But on a day-to-day basis, she doesn't have a job, and would not be encouraged to find one either. I hope she found something to occupy her time. A hobby maybe, but also something to get her out of the house, a club with ladies to talk with.

[CarrotCake]

Do they actually know for sure it is Michael that is 'causing' the infertility? Could it be Brandon as well?

I assume they would blame the woman anyway so it doesn't really matter but I am wondering if Brandon, who seems to be a sensitive man, also feels hurt by it.

[luv2laugh]

14 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

Do they actually know for sure it is Michael that is 'causing' the infertility? Could it be Brandon as well?

I assume they would blame the woman anyway so it doesn't really matter but I am wondering if Brandon, who seems to be a sensitive man, also feels hurt by it.

I'm wondering if both of them completed the fertility diagnostic testing with a fertility endocrinologist. I'm assuming they did. I'm wondering if she has tried to take fertility medications to allow her to "hyperovulate" (if they believe it's allowed in their belief system, that is) or if they are holding off, saving up money for whatever method/adoption, they decide to proceed with. I don't think they believe in IVF. I know some Catholics believe IVF is "playing God". Even if they were to proceed with IVF, it's expensive so they'd need to save up money. I have an aunt that couldn't get pregnant despite two cycles of IVF. They ended up adopting two children.

Wasn't there a BUB episode where Michael had something done to "clear her tubes" in case of a blockage? It's possible they've both been given a diagnosis of idiopathic infertility where everything shows up as normal.

My hope is that they find the support to proceed with whatever they desire whether their belief system allows it or not.

Edited January 29, 2019 by luv2laugh

[Melissa1977]

17 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

Do they actually know for sure it is Michael that is 'causing' the infertility? Could it be Brandon as well?

I assume they would blame the woman anyway so it doesn't really matter but I am wondering if Brandon, who seems to be a sensitive man, also feels hurt by it.

I think they said both were checked and both are ok and infertility has an unknown reason. Anyway, they are discreet, so maybe they just don't want to share the medical reasons.

Brandon has been trying to convince Michael that it's a God decision. But I'm not sure that at this point, he can deny her some treatments (not IVF, but others). She seems desperate and her contentment sounds false. 

 

[llucie]

10 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

 I'm wondering if she has tried to take fertility medications to allow her to "hyperovulate" (if they believe it's allowed in their belief system, that is)

When they went to the fertility specialist he said that she already hyperovulates, and that if someday she becomes pregnant chances are it would be of multiples.

[theotherelise]

What I believe we know about the Keilen's infertility:

• They have been married and presumably not preventing pregnancy since August 2015.
• They started some testing in February 2017
• They do not have a male factor issue and did not get any explanation from initial testing (this likely rules out a thyroid issue, PCOS, luteal phase defect/low progesterone, or premature diminished ovarian reserve)
• In August 2017, Michaela had an HSG to check if her fallopian tubes are open. She seemed to imply there might have been a partial blockage in one that they were able to fix, but the false positives on HSG are ridiculously high (~17%). Many doctors will say this "flushes things out" and there is a lot of anecdotal belief that you might get pregnant the next cycle after this procedure, but I don't know if there is any evidence of that.
• Michael has said they will adopt if she can't get pregnant. Whatever IBLP may have taught in the past about adoption, Michael and others in her generation have not shied away from at least saying they would like to adopt.
• At some point, Michael said she "hyperovulates." Producing and releasing more than one egg in a cycle is not an infertility-associated condition. Releasing immature eggs would make fertilization difficult though. 
• They believe life begins at conception, so every embryo is 100% baby for them. 

What I believe we don't know about the Keilen's infertility:

• Did Michael have a laparoscopy to rule out/treat endometriosis?
• If they tried or are open to trying any hormonal therapies including letrezole, clomid, or progesterone support. Even if Michael actually ovulates and releases more than one egg, letrezole/clomid could potentially still help as they sometimes just make your ovulation better by helping you develop good follicles and mature eggs.
• If they would consider NaPro technology which is a Catholic-church approved hormonal treatment option for infertility
• If they would consider IUIs. These typically require the male to provide a sample from manual stimulation. But there are capturing options which could be done with intercourse. 
• If they would consider any advanced reproductive technology. There are some ways to do IVF that would minimize embryo creation so that there are no leftovers. I do not believe they would consider this. Even many mainstream Christians don't and the cost is at least 10-20k in the midwest.
• If they would consider embryo adoption/snowflake adoption. This is when another couple's embryo is placed in your uterus. This can satisfy a couple things: you have a chance at carrying a baby and you are preventing an embryo (which they believe is 100% baby) from being discarded.
• If they would actually adopt and how (foster-to-adopt, private adoption, or some weird fundie rehoming thing)

On the social/emotional/relational side:

• We don't know if Michael's family and social circle treats Michael and Brandon like they did something to cause this infertility by lack of faith or whatever. There is a ton of speculation about what people tell them, but we don't know anything. Yes, they are quiverful and see babies as a blessing directly from God. But just like all their beliefs, they don't always act consistently. Erin at least seems to be pretty compassionate about their situation. Kelly has as well.
• Michael has shared that it's been hard and she cries and feels sad about it. She has not just put on a face of contentment all the time, so it seems unlikely that anyone is forcing her to pretend.

I think it's important to note that the way Michael talks about her infertility is not that different from how non-fundie people talk about their infertility. Acceptance is one really powerful strategy for managing the stress and pain from infertility, and I see her posts about contentment as an attempt at accepting the situation as it is and her lack of control over it. My Reproductive Endocrinologist prescribed me one thing as we are saving for IVF: write a list of what you're grateful for whenever it's hard. He's not religious and went through IVF with his wife.

Michael's infertility journey is really pretty normal. She is just surrounded by people who procreate frequently and she was raised to believe that motherhood was the primary goal.

[JingerSnaps]

I don’t understand why a quiverful fundie would have a problem with having 20 embryos. Most couples it is a problem because if the first couple embryos stick, then they have some that will never be transferred.  A fundie would just keep having babies until they used every embryo. I can see them thinking IVF is against gods will, but they wouldn’t have the same issues with it as normal couples. 

[theotherelise]

You have to sign a ton of papers when you do ivf about what would happen to your embryos in a bunch of scenarios. What if something tragic happened and Michael died before the embryos could be used? How would they feel if an embryo didn’t survive the thaw? What if her uterus was damaged during a birth, what should they do with the remaining embryos? 

Ive never heard of anyone getting 20 embryos (20 eggs is reasonable) from a single ivf, but everyone who goes through it has to come to terms with their answers for the difficult questions. Ivf isn’t the right answer for a lot of people.

[JillyO]

1 hour ago, JingerSnaps said:

I don’t understand why a quiverful fundie would have a problem with having 20 embryos. Most couples it is a problem because if the first couple embryos stick, then they have some that will never be transferred.  A fundie would just keep having babies until they used every embryo. I can see them thinking IVF is against gods will, but they wouldn’t have the same issues with it as normal couples. 

I am absolutely no expert on IVF, and I am sure other posters with more experience/knowledge will chime in.

But I imagine storing and transferring a large number of embryos would be very expensivee. From the first source I found:

Quote

Embryo freezing, including the initial freezing and storage, may cost an additional few to several hundred dollars. Yearly storage fees range anywhere from $200 to $800 per year. [...] The average cost for a frozen embryo transfer (FET) is about $3,000 - $5,000.

(source)

That's just not the kind of cost that's realistic for a quiverfull family.

[JingerSnaps]

13 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

You have to sign a ton of papers when you do ivf about what would happen to your embryos in a bunch of scenarios. What if something tragic happened and Michael died before the embryos could be used? How would they feel if an embryo didn’t survive the thaw? What if her uterus was damaged during a birth, what should they do with the remaining embryos? 

Ive never heard of anyone getting 20 embryos (20 eggs is reasonable) from a single ivf, but everyone who goes through it has to come to terms with their answers for the difficult questions. Ivf isn’t the right answer for a lot of people.

20 would obviously be a crazy number to get, but many get way more embryos than they would ever want to have children. I only got 3 eggs (all fertilized) when I had IVF. None of mine took, I would have loved to have some in storage. The storage fees are way less than another round of IVF. I get something could happen unexpectedly, but these are not people that would be horrified to have 10+ kids. That’s their dream.

[SorenaJ]

15 hours ago, theotherelise said:

What I believe we know about the Keilen's infertility:

•  They do not have a male factor issue and did not get any explanation from initial testing (this likely rules out a thyroid issue, PCOS, luteal phase defect/low progesterone, or premature diminished ovarian reserve)
•  If they would consider IUIs. These typically require the male to provide a sample from manual stimulation. But there are capturing options which could be done with intercourse. 

Can you test for male factor issues without a male sample? Is it fundie-approved to get a sample by other means than ejaculation? 

[theotherelise]

@SorenaJ no, you have to have a sample. They have said Brandon doesn't have a male factor issue. We don't know how they determined that. There is an option I've seen some very conservative christian bloggers share: https://www.amazon.com/Male-FactorPak-Semen-Collection-Condom-Pack/dp/B017BOUIZO?th=1

It allows the collection to happen during intercourse. Since the collection is being done in the hopes of determining a way to achieve pregnancy, maybe they wouldn't feel like it is "spilling his seed on the ground." 

@JingerSnaps sorry for your situation! The point for me isn't that they're willing to transfer every single embryo. There are a ton of reasons why someone may not be able to carry a pregnancy. If they were willing but not able to transfer every embryo, then they would have to look at drastic solutions for not discarding any. If Michael died, what is Brandon supposed to do with his frozen "babies." If Brandon died, is Michael supposed to keep transferring and just move back in with Mom and Dad and put any kids on medicaid? What if she had placenta previa or a massive hemorrhage or some other internal damage and they couldn't find an RE who would be willing to transfer?  

There is just no way I could see them doing IVF. I would be very surprised if they've tried an IUI. And with Brandon working for IBLP and Michael selling blankets and a pittance from UP maybe, they would be hard-pressed to afford it, even if they did it back home. What's ironic is that Illinois has a state law mandating infertility coverage. If Michael got a full-time job at a daycare, she could have some amount of insurance assistance for all this. 

[Purrl]

On 1/29/2019 at 12:47 AM, Melissa1977 said:

I think they said both were checked and both are ok and infertility has an unknown reason. Anyway, they are discreet, so maybe they just don't want to share the medical reasons.

Brandon has been trying to convince Michael that it's a God decision. But I'm not sure that at this point, he can deny her some treatments (not IVF, but others). She seems desperate and her contentment sounds false. 

 

This is our situation. One baby and then no more, despite no identifiable problem. To me, that’s how you know it truly is “God’s” decision. 

ETA: Though we did use birth control for the first 3 mos. of our marriage and for a year after our daughter was born, and we did pursue some fertility treatments. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Purrl

[zcccrv]

I've had my very first ever embryo transfer today (at age 37) and I can definitely see fundies having issues with certain aspects of the process. For example, your embryologist chooses which embryos to transfer and which to freeze. That could be seen as playing god. They also advise you whether to transfer one or two (three is for exceptional circumstances) based on how well you are recovering from egg aspiration. If there is ovary hyper-stimulation present, the doctor will recommend not to transfer two. Again, I suspect they would view this as man playing god. And the frozen embryos issue is also quite nuanced. Would fundies insist on freezing and eventually transferring embryos of lesser quality because it's all life? And as stated above- if Michael would to have a medical issue rendering her incapable of carrying further pregnancies- what would they do with the remaining embryos? Too much gray area in several aspects for me to believe that they would consider IVF.

[justmy2cents]

@zcccrv fingers crossed for a successful transfer! I went through the IVF process and you need nerves of steel!

[zcccrv]

2 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

@zcccrv fingers crossed for a successful transfer! I went through the IVF process and you need nerves of steel!

Thanks! ? I haven't been stressed much so far but then- everything seems to be going really well. Before starting I was afraid that the hormones and the expectations combined would make me feel like an emotional wreck (I do have PMS from hell from time to time, where I somehow feel myself being "crazy") but I have been weirdly calm. That will probably change if we have to face failure to achieve/sustain pregnancy, but I'm staying positive at this time because everything is running as smoothly as possible.