Michael and Brandon Keilen: Part 4

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I am always surprised how many poster would like to place a poor little soul into this mess.......

Thank you.  She's a favorite of many who see the Bateses forums as their personal, interactive Tiger Beat.

The well being of another child in a dangerous cult is just an inconvenient fact far outweighed by wishes for her happiness.

the happiness of the potential children be damned.

[RosyDaisy]

To wish for kids to be brought up in this evil cult is to condone abuse. It really is. It shows more concern for the infertility struggles of the parents than for the safety and well-being of the children. Actually, it shows no concern for the children and a whole lot of projection.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, RosyDaisy said:

To wish for kids to be brought up in this evil cult is to condone abuse. It really is. It shows more concern for the infertility struggles of the parents than for the safety and well-being of the children. Actually, it shows no concern for the children and a whole lot of projection.

I hope people read your post becusse it’s an important point.  I do not understand why the harm to the children is handwaved away.

Enzo.   Has Kelly ever disavowed Enzo?  

If you wouldn’t want Michaela and Brandon to be gifted plumbing line at their baby shower than maybe unreservedly wishing babies for them and getting excited about more babies for the others is disregarding the suffering of kids for the Z list celebrity gawking.

Imagine the self loathing and pain which would be suffered by any kid in that world who was gay.  Or trans.  Or a critical thinker.  Or intellectually gifted.  Or a girl who will be given no options. 

I don’t get it.

[theotherelise]

Perhaps I missed it or read it differently, but I don't think anyone has actually advocated for them to adopt or said they hope or wish or want the Keilens to adopt. Certainly not in the last couple pages. I think the discussion has mostly been about what their beliefs would allow them to consider, whether or not the options available to them would be within their means, and maybe a bit of speculation about what they are most likely to do. 

[Mrs.Right]

I’m sure this has already been said, but for those like the Bates and Duggar’s who advocate against abortion, claiming lots of families and couples would adopt those babies, I sure don’t see any of them adopting those babies. It’s so hollow and cruel of them to say that. They have more money than the average person to be able to afford adoption. 

[Melissa1977]

7 hours ago, Mrs.Right said:

I’m sure this has already been said, but for those like the Bates and Duggar’s who advocate against abortion, claiming lots of families and couples would adopt those babies, I sure don’t see any of them adopting those babies. It’s so hollow and cruel of them to say that. They have more money than the average person to be able to afford adoption. 

Bates and Duggars are hypocrite. But:

You shouldn't be allowed to adopt if you have 19 kids. There's just no time to dedicate to the new kid. Adoption is about the child wellness.

All the young Duggar/Bates minus Michael have little kids. Adoption laws requires (or should do) not having babies at home. 

Anyway, adopting shouldn't be done as an activist action. If you adopt to *save* babies or you feel forced to adopt because your religious/ethical views, it comes against the adopted child wellness. The only reason to adopt must be that you really really want a child and that you can afford him or her. If you don't really want a child, don't adopt, no matter how much you think you should do it.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

10 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Bates and Duggars are hypocrite. But:

You shouldn't be allowed to adopt if you have 19 kids. There's just no time to dedicate to the new kid. Adoption is about the child wellness.

All the young Duggar/Bates minus Michael have little kids. Adoption laws requires (or should do) not having babies at home. 

Anyway, adopting shouldn't be done as an activist action. If you adopt to *save* babies or you feel forced to adopt because your religious/ethical views, it comes against the adopted child wellness. The only reason to adopt must be that you really really want a child and that you can afford him or her. If you don't really want a child, don't adopt, no matter how much you think you should do it.

That, and their horrible cult. If they stick to those beliefs, I sincerely hope they do not adopt (or reproduce and raise those children into the cult). 

[QuiverDance]

On 2/24/2019 at 11:06 AM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thank you.  She's a favorite of many who see the Bateses forums as their personal, interactive Tiger Beat.

The well being of another child in a dangerous cult is just an inconvenient fact far outweighed by wishes for her happiness.

the happiness of the potential children be damned.

I agree with this, but at the same time, feeling sorry for Michaela or empathizing with her isn't the same thing as actively wanting her to breed new cult members.  I feel SUPER sorry for her because I've been in her shoes, and it really really hurts.  

[lizzybee]

19 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

I agree with this, but at the same time, feeling sorry for Michaela or empathizing with her isn't the same thing as actively wanting her to breed new cult members.  I feel SUPER sorry for her because I've been in her shoes, and it really really hurts.  

Yes, one of the most painful things I've ever experienced is desperately longing for a child and not understanding why I couldn't get pregnant. It's impossible for me not to empathize with her when I see her holding her siblings' babies. That doesn't mean I actively condone everything she thinks and believes, I just know she's hurting and I know what it is to cry those hopeless tears. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

16 minutes ago, lizzybee said:

Yes, one of the most painful things I've ever experienced is desperately longing for a child and not understanding why I couldn't get pregnant. It's impossible for me not to empathize with her when I see her holding her siblings' babies. That doesn't mean I actively condone everything she thinks and believes, I just know she's hurting and I know what it is to cry those hopeless tears. 

I understand being sympathetic so someone experiencing a struggle which has caused you pain.

But “That doesn’t mean I actively condone everything she thinks and believes” is a soft way to express that you’re hurting for a woman who can’t have a child who has never disavowed blanket training.  Who has time and again lauded her parents for how they were raised ...and her parents followed Enzo.

would you hurt for someone struggling with infertility if you knew they practiced FGM?  Or would you be glad one little girl wasn’t going to be subjected to it?

im sorry...you aren’t  the obit one, but feeling sorry that someone isn’t able to deny her children an education, deny her daughters life options, saddle her sons with the crushing burden of sole breadwinner of endless kids, the blanket training, the neglect.

i will never understand why her plight is worthy of sympathy with just a passion regard in generic terms about “beliefs” for the innocent babies born into their cult.

i have no doubt you have a kind heart - but it’s going to rub some of us the wrong way when  compassion for her is the focus and the beliefs are shuttled off with a throw away obligatory hand wave.

[bal maiden]

Do you mean Ezzo, rather than Enzo? 

[lizzybee]

48 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

i have no doubt you have a kind heart - but it’s going to rub some of us the wrong way when  compassion for her is the focus and the beliefs are shuttled off with a throw away obligatory hand wave.

That's fair. I guess I feel like it is emphasized very clear here about what the Bates believe and how awful their disciplinary standards are so I was just speaking on the other side of it (infertility), which is something I know a little about. I initially weighed in simply because I wanted to add that it's not impossible for her to still conceive naturally. I wasn't meaning to brush anything off, I was merely just talking about something else that was relevant to her situation.

I don't wish any type of abuse on any baby, and I know I've talked about that on here before - specifically how I look at my own child and cannot fathom thinking he was sinful and needed his will beaten out of him (I'll try to go back and link that post).* That's horrific and I don't understand at all wanting to do that to a child, especially your own baby. I certainly didn't mean to airily wave it away in this context. I'm admittedly a very empathetic person whether it's deserved or not. On the flip side, I often look at my own boys and think a lot about how very unfair it is that every child can't live as carefree as they're privileged to do. 

I hope that if Michaella and Brandon are ever one day blessed enough to become parents (however they go about it) that they'll make an active decision to depart from these awful beliefs and their children will live happy well-adjusted lives. That may be unlikely, but one can always hope. 

*Some receipts:
Bates are brainwashing you post. 

Priscilla Waller's cookie analogy is weird and abusive here and here.  

How can you want to beat the sin out of a child?

Edited February 25, 2019 by lizzybee
Adding links

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, bal maiden said:

Do you mean Ezzo, rather than Enzo? 

Yes - thanks.  One of my more common typos.

4 minutes ago, lizzybee said:

That's fair. I guess I feel like it is emphasized very clear here about what the Bates believe and how awful their disciplinary standards are so I was just speaking on the other side of it (infertility), which is something I know a little about. I initially weighed in simply because I wanted to add that it's not impossible for her to still conceive naturally. I wasn't meaning to brush anything off, I was merely just talking about something else that was relevant to her situation.

I don't wish any type of abuse on any baby, and I know I've talked about that on here before - specifically how I look at my own child and cannot fathom thinking he was sinful and needed his will beaten out of him (I'll try to go back and link that post). That's horrific and I don't understand at all wanting to do that to a child, especially your own baby. I certainly didn't mean to airily wave it away in this context. I'm admittedly a very empathetic person whether it's deserved or not. On the flip side, I often look at my own boys and think a lot about how very unfair it is that every child can't live as carefree as they're privileged to do. 

I hope that if Michaella and Brandon are ever one day blessed enough to become parents (however they go about it) that they'll make an active decision to depart from these awful beliefs and their children will live happy well-adjusted lives. That may be unlikely, but one can always hope. 

Empathy is a beautiful thing and you clearly have a very loving heart -those are good things.

and I replied to your post but I wasn’t singling you out ...I didn’t mean to imply you were pro-child abuse.  I know that’s not true.

i just feel it can be easy for the hatefulness of who they are to get lost in sympathy for her.  Especially her since she comes off so nice and sweet and very child centered.

to me those are just signs of her indoctrination which scares me for a baby.  

They all scare me.

my post came off harsher toward you than I intended and I’m sorry.

[Coconut Flan]

I can't forget how rigid Michael and Brandon were on the episode where her brothers visited.  She was more of a disciplinarian than Gil and Kelly with the boys.

[amendgitan]

On 2/23/2019 at 10:13 PM, just_ordinary said:

I am always surprised how many poster would like to place a poor little soul into this mess.......

Yes. It often feels like a fan site at times. 

On 2/24/2019 at 4:02 PM, Mrs.Right said:

I’m sure this has already been said, but for those like the Bates and Duggar’s who advocate against abortion, claiming lots of families and couples would adopt those babies, I sure don’t see any of them adopting those babies. It’s so hollow and cruel of them to say that. They have more money than the average person to be able to afford adoption. 

Don't they have a belief in the sins of the father or some crap like that?

Edited February 26, 2019 by amendgitan

[amendgitan]

6 hours ago, lizzybee said:

Yes, one of the most painful things I've ever experienced is desperately longing for a child and not understanding why I couldn't get pregnant. It's impossible for me not to empathize with her when I see her holding her siblings' babies. That doesn't mean I actively condone everything she thinks and believes, I just know she's hurting and I know what it is to cry those hopeless tears. 

It's worse for her, actually. Their culture teaches them that the value of a woman - her power and worth- is in reproduction. The more children a woman has, the more blessed by God she is. 

She literally has nothing else except housekeeping, a sad little internet business and the deep pity of friends and family. 

The problem is that no one can know how much of her longing is due to culture versus innate desire. 

Society teaches everyone that a woman is jordilfilled unless she becomes a mother. Preferably via   natural conception. It's even worse for women of her culture. 

But not every woman needs a child to be fulfilled. Not every woman wants children. But how can you know what you want if you are taught from the time you can walk that this is te most exciting thing that can happen that everyone longs for? If that's drilled in your head relentlessly, how can you know? 

And frankly I find the purported longing of these women to be suspect. Because their entire childhoods are spent in endless child rearing and drudgery. They then have only a month or two to get to know their husbands, usually, and before they can even enjoy a year alone, really jelling as a couple and getting to know one another, they are supposed to add a damn kid into the mix. 

The break they have from endless drudgery and child rearing in their lives is really only a few months in many cases, except when they're very small. 

And for all the posturing from these ladies once they have kids about how hard and new it is, b.s.  Most were almost full time sister mothers since the age of seven or so. 

In my life many of the women I've known who had to help raise their siblings were the women who did not want kids of their own. 

It's a conflicting feeling for me about this issue. Because as abhorrent as I find their belief system and cultural practices they are human beings. They know no different. And nothing is black and white. There are always shades of gray. Also, when someone hurts I can feel it. I can't stand to see others in pain  

So for whatever reason, I feel sorry for Michael and hope she doesn't suffer. And at the same time I wish more children would be spared the life these people would subject them to. 

Its a paradox. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by amendgitan

[Screamapillar]

I unabashedly do not for sorry for Michael. There's something very austere and old school about her that makes me think that any kids raised by her, biological or adopted, would be kept on a very short, very fundamentalist leash.

[llucie]

23 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

I can't forget how rigid Michael and Brandon were on the episode where her brothers visited.  She was more of a disciplinarian than Gil and Kelly with the boys.

I didnt think it was such a big deal. Children asked to eat their veggies and going to bed on time is considered normal parenting, and the kids saying they have never eating veggies in their life was a very WTF moment that makes one wonder if they are not being completely neglected by their parents. 

48 minutes ago, Screamapillar said:

I unabashedly do not for sorry for Michael. There's something very austere and old school about her that makes me think that any kids raised by her, biological or adopted, would be kept on a very short, very fundamentalist leash.

She actually reminds me so much of my grandmother. She has this traditional old school nurturing vibe, even in the clothes. My grandma was a great mother though.

Edited February 26, 2019 by llucie
spelling

[RosyDaisy]

She is their sister, not their mother, even if she may be old enough to be. That's a messed up dynamic.

[llucie]

3 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

She is their sister, not their mother, even if she may be old enough to be. That's a messed up dynamic.

I completelly agree, Kelly and Gil have completely giving up on parenting in recent years and it shows especially with the younger boys. 

But also keep in mind that they are not normal siblings, there is an age diference of 20 years. She could actually be their mother.

[VineHeart137]

4 hours ago, llucie said:

I didnt think it was such a big deal. Children asked to eat their veggies and going to bed on time is considered normal parenting, and the kids saying they have never eating veggies in their life was a very WTF moment that makes one wonder if they are not being completely neglected by their parents. 

I don't remember the part about the veggies (I remember Michael made crepes and they said they had never had those before) but I do remember the part where they talked about how the boys weren't used to being in bed at a decent hour. While I agree with Screamapillar and others in that I've always thought Michael would be the most strict parent of them all, I thought that particular scene said more about Kelly and Gil's lack of parenting than anything about Michael. I don't think it's crazy that she made them go to bed at a certain time.

The part that really stuck out to me as Michael being quite rigid in that episode was the gingerbread house building when she wouldn't let them eat even one piece of candy (and she came down hard on one of the boys for sneaking some). Isn't that like half the fun of building gingerbread houses??

[Syriana]

On 2/25/2019 at 9:23 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

would you hurt for someone struggling with infertility if you knew they practiced FGM?  Or would you be glad one little girl wasn’t going to be subjected to it?

 

1

As strange at it may seem, both.

I know what it's like to be considered 'less than' because I can't have a biological child of my own, I know what it feels like to have it drilled into me that a 'real woman' would be able to give her husband a child of his own - some members of my family have even suggested my husband should divorce me because they think I must be preventing pregnancy.  I've long since made peace with my inability to have a biological child, my husband had no time for those who criticise me for it.  I would hurt for anyone experiencing the pain that comes with feeling that you're failing at being a 'full' woman.

The flip side of that, it the breathtaking relief of knowing a child isn't being brought into a toxic, abusive environment under an even more toxic cloud of messed up ideology.  FGM is the epitome of cruelty, the practices of the like of the Bates and Duggers scarcely less so.

I can hurt for the pain being felt, without hoping that person ever has a child.

[QuiverDance]

On 2/25/2019 at 3:23 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I understand being sympathetic so someone experiencing a struggle which has caused you pain.

But “That doesn’t mean I actively condone everything she thinks and believes” is a soft way to express that you’re hurting for a woman who can’t have a child who has never disavowed blanket training.  Who has time and again lauded her parents for how they were raised ...and her parents followed Enzo.

would you hurt for someone struggling with infertility if you knew they practiced FGM?  Or would you be glad one little girl wasn’t going to be subjected to it?

im sorry...you aren’t  the obit one, but feeling sorry that someone isn’t able to deny her children an education, deny her daughters life options, saddle her sons with the crushing burden of sole breadwinner of endless kids, the blanket training, the neglect.

i will never understand why her plight is worthy of sympathy with just a passion regard in generic terms about “beliefs” for the innocent babies born into their cult.

i have no doubt you have a kind heart - but it’s going to rub some of us the wrong way when  compassion for her is the focus and the beliefs are shuttled off with a throw away obligatory hand wave.

That’s just it.  I don’t want to see her have more cult babies. In fact, I think she’s probably so awash in the koolaid it is probably a blessing to her putative kids that she’s infertile. I feel sorry for her anyway because not only is infertility painful, but her pain is compounded by her cult’s definition of her based on gender. She, through all of this programming and because of the spiritual abuse inflicted upon her as a child, is made to feel inadequate and unworthy. It is very sad. It is, in fact, additional evidence of how awful this cult is for women and children. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by QuiverDance

[Melissa1977]

45 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

That’s just it.  I don’t want to see her have more cult babies. In fact, I think she’s probably so awash in the koolaid it is probably a blessing to her putative kids that she’s infertile. I feel sorry for her anyway because not only is infertility painful, but her pain is compounded by her cult’s definition of her based on gender. She, through all of this programming and because of the spiritual abuse inflicted upon her as a child, is made to feel inadequate and unworthy. It is very sad. It is, in fact, additional evidence of how awful this cult is for women and children. 

It's sad but it's true.

If Gil and Kelly would have remain just conservative, Michaela would have become a shy, responsible woman, similar than she is, but without the damaging indoctrination. In case of having children, she would be a strict mom maybe, but no kid would be fearing the rod at her home. Everybody would wish her a baby, because the future kid wouldn't be hurt.

 

[kmachete14]

Michaela said that because one of the little boys snuck a candy from the gingerbread house, they were "lying" and chastised them for it. It's wasn't in a joking manner, either.

That's what brought about the "Michaela is strict" talk, not just that she made them go to bed at 8pm and eat veggies.