Dillards 54: Fantasyland Where Reality Isn't Required

[2manyKidzzz]

1 minute ago, SamiKatz said:

I have morphed from a "sweets" person to a "salty" person as I've gotten older.  I've never met a bag of potato chips I did not love.  

I love salty stuff too. Shame. 

[Hashtag Blessed]

11 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

@Hashtag Blessed I know of houses for pregnant teenagers for example where they can live and it can paid by the government (I don't know the exact conditions, but your family can't forbid you to go there because they don't want to pay for it). Social services can help you get a place there when you can't stay in your family. Similar to those houses for abused women or assisted living facilities for teenagers. One girl I know went there when she didn't get along with her dad anymore (no violence involved) and they could find her a place. So that's why I wonder. That house was also not affiliated to a church. I know that there are more houses like this in Germany. So idk, I just thought other countries would have that too or at least some run by the church and financed through donations. 

Edit: that girl also stayed there when the baby was born until they found a flat for her. They also helped her with her education and she found an apprenticeship. 

Ok but are those available in every state? Can we be sure they won’t ever fill beyond capacity, leaving some people stranded? Can undocumented immigrants go there without fear of being reported to ICE? Do they all help adults too? Or just teens? Most aborted pregnancies are performed on adults who already have kids. So will their children also be welcome to stay?

And what about people with genetic diseases like huntingtons diseas, that they don’t want to pass on?

I’m sorry but there are still 1000 scenarios that cannot be covered by a bandaid like that. It is wonderful that places like that exist, but thay cannot possibly look after everyone who needs help.

 

[VelociRapture]

6 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

Ok but are those available in every state? Can we be sure they won’t ever fill beyond capacity, leaving some people stranded? Can undocumented immigrants go there without fear of being reported to ICE? Do they all help adults too? Or just teens? Most aborted pregnancies are performed on adults who already have kids. So will their children also be welcome to stay?

And what about people with genetic diseases like huntingtons diseas, that they don’t want to pass on?

I’m sorry but there are still 1000 scenarios that cannot be covered by a bandaid like that. It is wonderful that places like that exist, but thay cannot possibly look after everyone who needs help.

 

I think @L1o2u3mentioned being German in one of their posts. If so, that may explain the confusion. 

[samurai_sarah]

59 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

Yeah, but from a rational perspective. If you imagine that abortion is illegal, but the person knows there's help if the family doesn't support her and she'd have a place to live until the baby is born (if she allows for it to be adopted) or even after that when she wants to take care of it and they would help her find a job etc.. I can't get why anyone would then risk her life and the baby's life too. A life like that isn't as bad as death, right? 

I come from a country, where abortion is illegal, but free of punishment, if you do whatever is required. In the very same country, there are numerous incentives that allow single parents to care for their children. None of them are perfect, but it's a start,

And here's why I'm pro-choice and so is my rural Catholic family:

You spend more than a decade raising and educating a child. You guide their hands, you love them, you do everything you can. The fuck will we sacrifice a grown woman for a foetus! Not even my family is so Catholic that we think that's a good swap!

4 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I think @L1o2u3mentioned being German in one of their posts. If so, that may explain the confusion. 

Well, if that is the case, I have a lot of things to say.

[Denim Jumper]

49 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

@Hashtag Blessed I know of houses for pregnant teenagers for example where they can live and it can paid by the government (I don't know the exact conditions, but your family can't forbid you to go there because they don't want to pay for it). Social services can help you get a place there when you can't stay in your family. Similar to those houses for abused women or assisted living facilities for teenagers. One girl I know went there when she didn't get along with her dad anymore (no violence involved) and they could find her a place. So that's why I wonder. That house was also not affiliated to a church. I know that there are more houses like this in Germany. So idk, I just thought other countries would have that too or at least some run by the church and financed through donations. 

Edit: that girl also stayed there when the baby was born until they found a flat for her. They also helped her with her education and she found an apprenticeship. 

Edit: I also just found out that here, as a single parent with a child under 6 years (no matter if you're a teenager or not), you have a right to assistance and assisted living facilities for both you and the child when you can't make it on your own. It's in the law that you get free housing and advice when you can't afford it! It should be in other places too if it isn't already. 

Many of us posting here are American. The government won't even subsidize contraception, and conservatives blow a gasket anytime a high school opens up an on-site daycare center. Any resource that enables teen moms to choose to keep their baby is seen as "encouraging" teen pregnancy, and any resource that prevents pregnancy is seen as "encouraging" teen sex.

[SapphireSlytherin]

She may be German, and that may be an option there, but she's still refusing to address the SOCIAL issues inherent in a society where getting pregnant while unmarried is still considered taboo/grievous sin/unmentionable.

Great - she's right that those resources (HOUSING, HEALTHCARE) do exist in Germany, and that the government provides a stipend for  the child.

BUT - the social ramifications by being ostracized by family and friends is still a HUGE part of many people's cultures.

[L1o2u3]

@Hashtag Blessed The German law (§19 SGB 8) says that older siblings are included, too, and that unborn children (or better, pregnant women) have a right to that as well even if the child hasn't been born yet. 

 

[ViolaSebastian]

16 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I think @L1o2u3mentioned being German in one of their posts. If so, that may explain the confusion. 

Yeah, those kinds of resources are full stop not as available in the US. There’s been a move away from maternity homes, and section 8 government housing lists can mean years long waits for housing assistance. There are many states (like mine) that have very few abortion providers, and the mandatory wait times can mean that someone has to secure the funds to travel five or six hours, as well as stay several nights during the waiting period. That’s so far out of the realm of most poor people’s means that they attempt an at-home abortion out of desperation. To say nothing of the protestors that camp outside clinic doors and scream that they’re killing their baby and going to hell.

And that’s not even getting into the religious/culture aspects of the issue. There’s no easy options in the US. 

Here’s an article that talks about what I would face if I wanted to go to the one clinic that offers abortions in the entire state:

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/17/kentucky-last-abortion-clinic-emw/

[libgirl2]

35 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I love salty stuff too. Shame. 

Me too. I would rather eat chips than cake or cookies. 

[VelociRapture]

12 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

She may be German, and that may be an option there, but she's still refusing to address the SOCIAL issues inherent in a society where getting pregnant while unmarried is still considered taboo/grievous sin/unmentionable.

Great - she's right that those resources (HOUSING, HEALTHCARE) do exist in Germany, and that the government provides a stipend for  the child.

BUT - the social ramifications by being ostracized by family and friends is still a HUGE part of many people's cultures.

I completely agree with you. I was just pointing out that her being German could have been contributing to the confusion because she may not realize what it’s actually like in other countries, such as the US. But yes, social issues need to be understood and addressed too.  

[Jellybean]

‘Illegal abortion’ can cover quite a spectrum of actions too, from actions (eg heavy exercise) trying to cause an early miscarriage, right the way through to unlicensed medications and black market surgical/type procedures. They come with a range of risks and likelihood of success. 

While I think it’s great that there are safe places for a person to go when pregnant, it still seems a pretty tough choice - leave your family and support network and accept support from strangers in order to give birth to a child. I’m not phrasing this well, I know, because it’s never easy to bring a child into the world, but having the option of emergency support doesn’t mean that abortion (especially if it’s very early in the pregnancy) would never be needed or a better choice for some people in some situations. 

Providing accurate information about sex, anatomy and pregnancy and providing cheap and easy access to safe and reliable birth control would also reduce the need for abortions.

[Carm_88]

A right to abortion is a right to make the choices surrounding your own body. Birth control fails, men can walk away, families may not be supportive, adoption may not be something that the woman wants, and so on. Legal abortions are necessary, women will get them anyway, risks be damned. Not my body, not my business. 

[L1o2u3]

24 minutes ago, Jellybean said:

Providing accurate information about sex, anatomy and pregnancy and providing cheap and easy access to safe and reliable birth control would also reduce the need for abortions.

I agree. And I think that if pro-lifers want to save children, they should do more of that and also offer more real help than just praying or putting t-shirt on children.  

[nausicaa]

58 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

I come from a country, where abortion is illegal, but free of punishment, if you do whatever is required.

Just wondering--how does something being illegal affect people if there is no punishment for participating in it? Is it just semantics to appease religious conservatives? Or are only medical providers punished?

Also, I had no idea that abortion was illegal in Scotland. You learn something new every day. 

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

I agree. And I think that if pro-lifers want to save children, they should do more of that and also offer more real help than just praying or putting t-shirt on children.  

Some people will defend to the death (and to obsession) the right to life, but once the child is born, its not so much anymore. 

[L1o2u3]

8 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Just wondering--how does something being illegal affect people if there is no punishment for participating in it? Is it just semantics to appease religious conservatives? Or are only medical providers punished?

Also, I had no idea that abortion was illegal in Scotland. You learn something new every day. 

In Germany, it's illegal too. Here, It works like that: abortion in general is illegal, but there is no punishment if: 

- the abortion happens before the 14th week 

- you attend mandatory counselling at least 3 days before having the abortion 

- it has to be done by a doctor

- if the mom's life is in danger or a birth would place an undue burden on the mother (like disability), you can have an abortion after 14 weeks too. 

you can definitely be punished if

- you force somebody to abort

- or the abortion isn't done by a doctor 

Not sure if DIY abortions done solely by the pregnant women have been punished in a real life case though. 

So yes, I think some of that is just to appease to conservatives. 

If you earn less than 1001€ a month, you also don't have to pay for the abortion. and under certain other circumstances, it's free too. 

[nausicaa]

36 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

A right to abortion is a right to make the choices surrounding your own body. Birth control fails, men can walk away, families may not be supportive, adoption may not be something that the woman wants, and so on. Legal abortions are necessary, women will get them anyway, risks be damned. Not my body, not my business. 

Yeah, it's always interesting to me how some people assume the reason to abort is solely based on finances. I can imagine a whole host of reasons why someone wouldn't want to carry a fetus to term, including physical fitness, mental health issues, freedom, career ambitions, disinterest in being a parent, and dislike of one's sex partner. All of those seem to be very compelling reasons to pursue an abortion, even an illegal one. 

And as pointed out above, there are a lot of ways to "induce a miscarriage" early on that are not as dangerous or invasive. Starving oneself, consuming certain herbs, and heavy lifting/throwing oneself down stairs are all ways women have attempted abortions through the centuries. I suppose it's impossible to ever determine a precise success rate on them, but they've certainly worked before. I always wonder how the Mike Pences of the world think they're ever going to regulate women doing heavy yard work or buying Vitamin C supplements. 

[FundieCentral]

@SapphireSlytherin: 

Well, German society is a lot less religious than American society. Honestly, almost no one I know is getting married before being pregnant, many people never get married/plan to get married, and no one gives a crap about how you raise your child (unless it causes problems). The social fabric really is also rather thin in my home city. It is uncommon that someone brings you food, supports you, or offers help when you have a child because that’s your job (with he help of the government). So it has good and bad sides. I am sometimes quite jealous of how much support the Duggar girls have with pregnancy and child-rearing.  

The main concern in my general friend circle is material: it is considered highly irresponsible to have a child if you’re not financiall well-to do and pretty educated. There is a popular strain of classism that getting married and having children is in fact sort of a old-fashioned (red hillbilly/underclass) thing to do, regardless of your age, and that you should not have children because of the environment and because they limit your freedom. I have two friends with children, one unmarried and one got married long after her son’s birth, and absolutely no one cares about their family status, and no one even knows as where I live even married couples don’t usually change names or wear rings every day. 

 

@nausicaa: yes, here it serves to emphasize the moral gravity of an abortion decision, while acknowledging the practicalities (e.g. that forbidding abortion doesn’t make them go away.) 

[Jellybean]

11 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Just wondering--how does something being illegal affect people if there is no punishment for participating in it? Is it just semantics to appease religious conservatives? Or are only medical providers punished?

Also, I had no idea that abortion was illegal in Scotland. You learn something new every day. 

Abortion is not illegal in Scotland, or anywhere in Great Britain (Northern Ireland has different rules). Birth control is free for everyone here, and abortion is legal and free before 24 weeks gestation as long as two medical practitioners agree that the risk of continuing the pregnancy would be worse for the mother or existing children than an abortion, or if there is serious risk to the life or health of the mother or the foetus.

[nausicaa]

1 minute ago, Jellybean said:

Abortion is not illegal in Scotland, or anywhere in Great Britain (Northern Ireland has different rules). Birth control is free for everyone here, and abortion is legal and free before 24 weeks gestation as long as two medical practitioners agree that the risk of continuing the pregnancy would be worse for the mother or existing children than an abortion, or if there is serious risk to the life or health of the mother or the foetus.

Thank you! I realize now that @samurai_sarah was probably referring to Germany and I misread it. 

How easy is it to have two medical practitioners agree that an abortion is necessary? Is it pretty much a given or are women often turned away?

[2manyKidzzz]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

Me too. I would rather eat chips than cake or cookies. 

Sadly I love both. That is the shame. 

[Jellybean]

I’ve never heard of anyone turned away when seeking an abortion @nausicaabut there are medical practitioners who will not perform abortions for religious reasons (that’s allowed). They generally have to agree to refer to a colleague, and would be more likely to be working in general practice (family doctors) than in obstetrics/gynaecology.

ETA There are sexual health clinics that can provide anonymous services - testing for STIs, birth control (from condoms and the pill, through to coils and implants) and abortions/testing. The ‘morning after’ pill can also be bought over the counter at any pharmacy

[FJismyheadship]

20 hours ago, Kleine Vampirin said:

Scotland calling. Had to google 'Peeps' to find out what the heck was being discussed here. Bloody hell. And I come from the land of deep fried Mars bars (Cadbury's creme eggs if we're feeling spiritual for Easter) 

So YOU GUYS are the reaspn I bought a milky way in the seventh grade om a field trip to the fair and it was deep fried!!!!

 

FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!

 

That was the most disappointing chocolate bar.

16 hours ago, Kelsey said:

I love Peeps.

Tried my first Cadbury creme egg yesterday and spit it into a trash can. So gross.

I do not eat miracle whip or Mayo. The texture and smell of them weird me out.

The Dillard's are assholes who should withdraw from that contest and donate the money they spend on their missioncations to an organization that will actually do some good.

I dont like American Cadbury Cream Eggs. A few years ago, a friend of mine sent me some candy from England.  THOSE Cadbury Cremes were amazing. The ones here suck.

[Nikedagain?]

3 hours ago, L1o2u3 said:

Yeah, but from a rational perspective. If you imagine that abortion is illegal, but the person knows there's help if the family doesn't support her and she'd have a place to live until the baby is born (if she allows for it to be adopted) or even after that when she wants to take care of it and they would help her find a job etc.. I can't get why anyone would then risk her life and the baby's life too. A life like that isn't as bad as death, right? 

Oh mannnn. 

[BabyBottlePop]

Abortions will continue regardless of legality. That's why, since I don't see social services changing to help people access birth control and other services in the near future, it's needed to protect women. 

People forget the number of women who died or were maimed attempting a back door abortion. Why would that change if abortion was outlawed now?