Seewalds 32: The Big If

[Sky with diamonds]

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Oh god in heaven! I am literally wearing the same dress. I thought this morning I looked Duggar like, now it's been confirmed. 

Could be worse, it could have been one of those Fundie Frumper dresses like Jessa used to wear. 

[LacyMay]

5 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Joy and the lost girls I think might go for the big families because they never really saw the true hardships the Duggar's went through  and the child care didn't really fall on them. Joy maybe remembers it a little but she still had Jana to take care of the kids even when the others married and moved out. 

I just watched the Joy giving birth minisode and I think if anything Joy will have seen more of the perceived positives. She was *doted* on by 4 older siblings (Jessa talked about how Joy was spoiled by the older girls) and by the time Jessa, Jill and Jinger started moving out the younger kids were a bit older and didn't require the same amount of sister momming. Not only that but she was old enough at that point that she was able to be the authority figure to them and boss them around when she felt it necessary. She really hit that sweet spot where she wasn't old enough to be a sister mom but was old enough to get the littles to do things for her. 

It's entirely possible Jessa is pregnant right now (because biology) but I would be amazed if it's more than 3 months, and to be honest I don't think she is at all. Her and Jinger strike me as the most pragmatic and even if she's not actively preventing I don't think they are really trying either even NFP wouldn't totally surprise me. But I could be wrong. 

[PumaLover]

I had just had to jump in on the topic of adoption since it is something very near and dear to me. I also have appreciated reading all the different perspectives of FJers, and as usual, opening my eyes to other viewpoints.

I never had bio kids for a number of reasons. I always had wanted to adopt an older kid. In a strange turn of events, that actually ended up happening. I got to know my now daughter when she was 8 (mentally about 5 or 6) at a family event. I'm kind of related to her through marriage but it's complicated. She and her baby sister had just been dumped off by their drug addict bio mom to live with my SIL and BIL who had two babies of their own, and this little girl was lost. I felt an immediate bond with her. I had just been laid off and was going through a hard time so I started picking her up for "Big Sister" activities.

Over the next couple years, the mom got the kids back, had another baby (number 7? I think) and dumped all the kids off again, going from program to program, etc. She finally was going into her final program but could only take two kids, so she chose the youngest two. She asked us if she would take in the now 11 year old, so we did. She told DD she would only be with us 2 weeks; we knew it would be long term. So we went and filed for guardianship. That was over two years ago and the mom hasn't tried to get her back (not that my husband or I would let her).

DD questions why her mom fought to get the youngest two back, but not her, or the other kids. She wants to know what made her mom willing to give her away so easily. I know most adoptions are of very young kids but DD has a lot of trauma and memories of horrible things that her mom and the random men in the mom's life have done. She is in therapy for this now. She hates her birth mom and wants nothing to do with her. She hasn't had contact in over a year. She willingly calls my husband her dad but still refers to me as her aunt to other people. In a way it kind of hurts because she doesn't "need" another "mom," since she already has one. A horrible one, but still a mom. I would never force her to call me mom and try to pretend it doesn't bother me, but sometimes it does.

Lastly, no one knows who her dad is, even the birth mom. According to her it could be three different guys. DD has mentioned several times about wanting to find her birth dad, and I have warned her that not all reunification stories have happy endings. I told her when she's 18 we can pursue that if she wants. I would appreciate any advice or perspectives from you wise FJers. 

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

@Palimpsest Thank you for validating me/my experience, it is something I struggle with in real life so seeing it in writing helps because I can see what was said instead of guessing what was meant. I also thank you for the insight on some of my questions. I will hug my son from you and pass on your agreement. I think he will enjoy hearing that others feel the same.

[Palimpsest]

@PumaLover, how very sad.  I am so glad she has you in her life.

We have some members here who have adopted older children and I expect they will chime in with their experiences.  FWIW, I think you are doing all the right things:  you have her in therapy, you are taking things at her pace (especially about calling you mom, and I expect that will come), and you are being realistic, but very supportive, about finding her birth father.  

I would recommend talking with her therapist about how you should respond when she asks why bio mom only fought to keep the youngest children.  However, my first thought is that the best response would be along the lines of:  "I don't know.  You are a wonderful girl and bring such joy to us."  After all, only bio mom knows why and it is OK for parents not to have all the answers.

 

[SongRed7]

On 3/24/2018 at 5:07 PM, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

That's so sad they feel that way.  My Mom told me my birth mom  loved me and wanted what was best for me staying with her wasn't it .  Lot's of adopted kids grow up with abandonment issues .  Don't make it worse.  Not saying you are, just generalizing.

Another adoptee here and that was my experience. My parents were so cool about the whole thing, I never felt abandoned or "given away"....I always knew (and my parents encouraged this thinking) that due to extraordinary circumstances, my birth mother did the loving thing to give me a better life than she was positioned to offer at that time.   Fast forward 52 years...through a change in law in the state where I was born/adopted...I was able to obtain my original birth records, etc.  My parents by this time were both deceased, and I was curious about my medical background etc...especially for my own kids who by this time only knew one set of DNA (my husbands).

VERY LONG STORY short....I met my biological half brother and half sister two years ago this week.  (.. they had a different biological father and my birth mother had died at this point) and found out the whole story of how I came to be put up for adoption.  My love for my biological mother only grew when I learned of her circumstances. What I also learned that loves expands and doesn't subject. So my parents who raised me were absolutely my family, and my birth mother and siblings were also my family even though I knew nothing about them. It was either/or  but rather both/and.  And today, almost 2 years to the day we met, my biological sister is my best friend in the whole world.  We are so close and have discovered so many coincidences in our life stories.  One thing we both did recently was read this book (link below)  to help understand all sides of adoption, especially in the years between the 1940s and the 1970s.  It an easy read and gives a lot of insight. I highly recommend it. 

https://www.amazon.com/Girls-Who-Went-Away-Surrendered/dp/0143038974

[Meggo]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 6:00 PM, Ivycoveredtower said:

Adoption can be a great thing and it takes a strong person to do it.  you bring up a great point about adoptive parents. I know personally I would never be strong enough to be an adoptive mother for the very reason's you bring up I wouldn't want to fear my child finding their birth parents and being close to them and sharing those moments. 

This is where I think I'm lucky. We have a good relationship with my son's birth mom. I feel like in our case- it's my responsibility to build a relationship with her so he can take it over when he's old enough. (though I think I will still keep the relationship with her regardless - unless he's adamantly against it or something). 

I don't worry about him finding her. If she decides she wants to see him (I've left this entirely up to her at this point) - I think it would be hard- but also... rewarding. Like "Look how great a job I've done with this little human you've put in my care! You made a hard decision - but the right one" (and I do feel like I owe it to her - not only to him but to HER - to be the best Momma I can be) 

I don't worry about him building a relationship with her. I think - and granted - he's only five - but I think he's pretty sure he knows exactly who his parents are. She'd be like a bonus family member. And I don't worry about HER trying to insert herself into our lives if she's not welcome either. She's been extremely respectful of us and our family. 
Like I've said before - it's like any relationship- hopefully the grown ups can BE grown ups and be respectful of each others boundaries and emotions and baggage. And when they can't be - and it's going to harm the child - then the parent needs to pull back. 
 

[Palimpsest]

@SongRed7, I think "The Girls Who Went Away" should be required reading for those who were adopted during the Baby Scoop Era (1940s - 70s.)  It gives an excellent picture of what birth mothers went through then.

Although young women can certainly still be coerced into giving up their children, there are huge differences between adoption then and now, and many more choices.  Open adoptions were unthinkable then.  

A book I don't recommend is the Primal Wound.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Primal_Wound

It may help some people, but it describes a theory and is certainly not every adopted child's experience.  My own experience was more like "an annoying, occasionally painful, recurring itch, that I finally decided not to scratch!"  The book also has a victim mentality that I don't like.  Some people can survive being separated from their bio mothers without profound negative consequences.  In my opinion.

[Nikedagain?]

16 hours ago, PumaLover said:

I had just had to jump in on the topic of adoption since it is something very near and dear to me. I also have appreciated reading all the different perspectives of FJers, and as usual, opening my eyes to other viewpoints.

I never had bio kids for a number of reasons. I always had wanted to adopt an older kid. In a strange turn of events, that actually ended up happening. I got to know my now daughter when she was 8 (mentally about 5 or 6) at a family event. I'm kind of related to her through marriage but it's complicated. She and her baby sister had just been dumped off by their drug addict bio mom to live with my SIL and BIL who had two babies of their own, and this little girl was lost. I felt an immediate bond with her. I had just been laid off and was going through a hard time so I started picking her up for "Big Sister" activities.

Over the next couple years, the mom got the kids back, had another baby (number 7? I think) and dumped all the kids off again, going from program to program, etc. She finally was going into her final program but could only take two kids, so she chose the youngest two. She asked us if she would take in the now 11 year old, so we did. She told DD she would only be with us 2 weeks; we knew it would be long term. So we went and filed for guardianship. That was over two years ago and the mom hasn't tried to get her back (not that my husband or I would let her).

DD questions why her mom fought to get the youngest two back, but not her, or the other kids. She wants to know what made her mom willing to give her away so easily. I know most adoptions are of very young kids but DD has a lot of trauma and memories of horrible things that her mom and the random men in the mom's life have done. She is in therapy for this now. She hates her birth mom and wants nothing to do with her. She hasn't had contact in over a year. She willingly calls my husband her dad but still refers to me as her aunt to other people. In a way it kind of hurts because she doesn't "need" another "mom," since she already has one. A horrible one, but still a mom. I would never force her to call me mom and try to pretend it doesn't bother me, but sometimes it does.

Lastly, no one knows who her dad is, even the birth mom. According to her it could be three different guys. DD has mentioned several times about wanting to find her birth dad, and I have warned her that not all reunification stories have happy endings. I told her when she's 18 we can pursue that if she wants. I would appreciate any advice or perspectives from you wise FJers. 

My heart is bursting with LOVE for you right now, Sis! 

[PennySycamore]

@Palimpsest,  that Primal Wound book sounds like complete nonsense.

[Ivycoveredtower]

12 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

@SongRed7, I think "The Girls Who Went Away" should be required reading for those who were adopted during the Baby Scoop Era (1940s - 70s.)  It gives an excellent picture of what birth mothers went through then.

Although young women can certainly still be coerced into giving up their children, there are huge differences between adoption then and now, and many more choices.  Open adoptions were unthinkable then.  

A book I don't recommend is the Primal Wound.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Primal_Wound

It may help some people, but it describes a theory and is certainly not every adopted child's experience.  My own experience was more like "an annoying, occasionally painful, recurring itch, that I finally decided not to scratch!"  The book also has a victim mentality that I don't like.  Some people can survive being separated from their bio mothers without profound negative consequences.  In my opinion.

I read the girls who went away a few years back. I agree it's  an excellent source  

[SongRed7]

53 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

gRed7, I think "The Girls Who Went Away" should be required reading for those who were adopted during the Baby Scoop Era (1940s - 70s.)  It gives an excellent picture of what birth mothers went through then.

I agree!   My life was a result of what took place during that time period. I thought I understood, but after reading the book it gave so much more clarity to everything...my birth mother, my parents who raised me, the secrecy, etc.  

[Ivycoveredtower]

weird Benessa throw back photo shared on the duggar facebook. 

 

[VBOY9977]

Jessa shared something on Instagram titles “arguments against anxiety”

it basically says to pray the anxiety away.... 

Ugh these fundies don’t understand that lots of forms of anxiety derive from mental illness and need professional help

[Ivycoveredtower]

here is the picture Jessa shared 

here is the link 

https://www.desiringgod.org/labs/nine-arguments-against-anxiety

[VelociRapture]

Just now, VBOY9977 said:

Jessa shared something on Instagram titles “arguments against anxiety”

it basically says to pray the anxiety away.... 

Ugh these fundies don’t understand that lots of forms of anxiety derive from mental illness and need professional help

Dear Jessa: 

But seriously. Come talk to me when you actually struggle with anxiety and panic attacks the way I do. Until then, take your prayers and fuck right off Jessa Blessa.

[singsingsing]

Meh. Looks like standard Christian advice. Some people do find the Bible/religion helpful in dealing with their anxiety, which is great. Especially if you've just got garden variety anxiety like everyone else on earth, or if you're using the Bible to supplement therapy and/or medication. What's not great is telling people that anxiety disorders aren't real, or they're your fault for not trusting God enough, or whatever. Frankly I don't have the patience to read/watch whatever she linked to, so I have no idea if that's what she's peddling today. 

Also, I just remembered that I had a dream last night that Jessa told me she was pregnant. But she wasn't very far along and it was a secret, so... shhhh. 

[clueliss]

Desiring God in that link above is probably related to John Piper. 

And Sorry, Jessa, I can logically understand what the Bible says but my anxiety refuses to act in any sort of logical manner (and don't get me started on depression).  

[Stormy]

I saw that earlier and the first thing I thought was that Jessa must be dealing with some anxiety and is trying to cope the only way she knows how. Sure, it's dismissive as hell and I might be giving her too much credit, but that's my two cents.

[AtlanticTug]

Sure, when Jessa has 6 kids and her laundry room breakdown, I hope that the Bible does it for her.

I'll stick to my lorazepam and therapist.

[MargaretElliott]

-distant screaming-

-more screaming-

-continued screaming-

Okay, phew. Now that that's over with-

Jessa, maybe if you addressed mental health in a positive and medically sound manner, there wouldn't be so many young people (Christians included) suffering today? Do Jesus's work and fucking HELP people, not judge and dismiss them. Stomach gets sick? Take medication. Heart gets sick? Take medication. Brain gets sick? All you need is ~*jEsUs & pRaYeR*~

Fuck right off, you ignorant asshat.

Sincerely, someone diagnosed with anxiety (and Jesus doesn't make it better for me)

[singsingsing]

They're like this about everything, not just mental health. Look at how they treat pregnancy and childbirth. Look at how they treat education. Look at how they treat choosing a spouse. I mean, hell, these people believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there's a massive conspiracy propagated by 99% of scientists to spread the "lies" of evolution and climate change, and that dinosaur fossils were planted by God and/or Satan to test our faith. Some Duggar telling me that I shouldn't be anxious because the Bible says so is like the least shocking thing ever. 

[potato]

And now a followup tweet from Jessa.

 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

11 minutes ago, potato said:

And now a followup tweet from Jessa.

 

Well that's rich coming from the Duggars...

[marmalade]

Nice CYA, Jessa. I guess she had to do something when she realized she was getting absolutely roasted in the comments, ESPECIALLY by other Christians. 

And as a sufferer of panic attacks since I was 10, may I fling a giant middle finger in Mrs. Seewald's direction.