Seewalds 32: The Big If

[Jessesgirl]

38 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

@JessesgirlI’ve been following along, but haven’t commented much because I don’t have direct experience with adoption. I think you’ve done a wonderful job in your posts here and you’ve done a fantastic job trying to see both your mother’s and your brother’s points of view. I feel very much for your brother, but I also feel very much for your mother as well - I can’t imagine this experience has been easy for her, but it’s wonderful that she has been supportive of the relationship you and your sister have with your brother. I hope that time brings her and your brother whatever peace and healing they both may need.

Thank you for your support! I’m also so glad my mom has been supportive of my sis and I having a relationship with my brother. It has truly been a great experience getting to know him. I’ve been lucky enough to meet him twice and he has also bonded with my husband, my two kids and my in laws as well. In fact, he is coming to visit me this May and my sis and I are taking him to his first baseball game! 

@Palimpsestyou are right,  it really means a lot to him to have a relationship with me.  He has expressed this to me on several occasions. 

[Kailash]

The posters on FJ always help me to see other perspectives. I thought I looked at adoption through both sides- the child given up and the biological mother. People on this thread have made me realize that I was looking at it as if all biological moms were mine. And obviously there are worlds more experiences out there. Thank you especially to @Palimpsest and @Jessesgirl for sharing their views.

 

[Capegirl]

On 3/24/2018 at 6:00 PM, Ivycoveredtower said:

Adoption can be a great thing and it takes a strong person to do it.  you bring up a great point about adoptive parents. I know personally I would never be strong enough to be an adoptive mother for the very reason's you bring up I wouldn't want to fear my child finding their birth parents and being close to them and sharing those moments. 

 

[Palimpsest]

Thanks, @Kailash.

3 hours ago, Kailash said:

I thought I looked at adoption through both sides- the child given up and the biological mother.

Actually there are three sides.  The adoptive parents, the birth mother, and the child.  The adoption triad. 

All of those sides experience loss, pain, stress, and anxiety.  I know we (and I) have slammed @Hisey on this thread - she has been obnoxious.  However, she is a part of that triad and her reactions are not that unusual.  Unkind as they may seem - she is Mama Bear, angry on behalf of her children.  She also needs to reassess her attitude to birth mothers a bit for the sake of her children.

Note that I put the child last when I described the adoption triad.  That is because the child is usually the last person considered when people emote and pontificate about the glories of adoption. And the rights of birth and adoptive parents.

Adopted children search for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes it is a hollow feeling.  Sometimes it is because they feel they need to understand why they were rejected. Sometimes it is because the adoptive home and parents rather sucked.  Sometimes the adoptive home was horribly abusive.   Sometimes it is a life or death medical situation.  

As an adult adopted child seeking basic information all my attention was on - how much will a search upset my adoptive mother?  How much will my search upset my birth mother?  What do I really need to know?  When do I need to let it go? 

I have to be sensitive to and understand all of this and care about others - but I have a need to know what is going on in MY BODY!  My doctors are telling me to search.  My doctors are actually contemptuous of me because I have stopped my search.  I'm just glad that it was just information that I needed - and decided to do without out of respect for bio-mom - and not an organ transplant to save my life.

But my needs came last.  Why?

5 hours ago, Jessesgirl said:

it’s an incredibly delicate and complex issue. I empathize with my brother and wish things were different for him. I do think adoptees should have access to basic information about themselves. However, I’m wondering if it’s reasonable or fair for adoptees to feel entitled to a relationship with biological parents. I’m also wondering how far adoptees should go in pursuing these relationships and looking for information. I think if biological moms and families don’t want to be found, adoptees need to back off and respect this. 

I do understand where you are coming from.  You are feeling pressured by your half brother at the moment - but take a step back because what you say here is very wrong.

I think most adoptees are content with minimal contact,  They only want on-going relationships if something was seriously lacking in their adoptive home.  Or if they meet their bio families and really like them.

The flip side is that some adoptees have reunited with their birth families and want to run far, far, away from them.  Just saying.

"Entitled" to a relationship.  No.  The rejects from your family are not entitled to anything.  How dare they presume and you can blow them off if you want.  

We adoptees ask for contact, not on a whim, but because we have an unmet need.  Our bio families can certainly kick us in the teeth again.  It's OK.  We have already been rejected once.

But we "need" to back off and "respect" you because we are inconvenient?

Fuck that.  You are not entitled to our respect.

See what I mean?

 

 

 

 

 

[Kailash]

There definitely are three sides, not just two. I don't know if it’s because I’m adopted that it feels like the only one of the 3 who had no choice in this is the child. I can see how biological moms might have felt that they didn’t have a choice either. 

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

I don't feel actually qualified to add to this discussion of adoption. I do want to adopt someday and have always wanted to expand my family that way. I thank everyone for sharing because it has given me a lot to think about and challenged things I thought, for the most part after thought my feelings did not change, but other things did. I do have something to share that I think adds a bit (sorry in advance if this gets long):

As you can guess from username, I grew up in Arkansas. I had a child when I was 17 there. I chose to keep him. I grew up Southern Baptist so abortion was never an option (in my mind, I am no longer bothered what other people choose almost 14 years later). I did not consider adoption either. It was clear to me that I wanted to keep my baby. I have over the years as I struggled wondered if it would have been better for him and I think if I had not had several very lucky breaks it would have. That being said, Arkansas is a strange place and the way the court systems there work is not on the up and up. Despite having always been in the custody of my mother (my brothers were eventually won by my father, actually the year before), when my baby was 2 months old the court case was lost and I was required to live with my father (until I was 18, but this was never said out loud and he did his damnedest to make me believe I would go to jail and lose my son if I went back to my mother after 18. I had no access to the internet, it was 2004-05 after all, and was afraid to trust anyone enough to ask if that could even be true because it might get back to him.) I did leave at 18, actually ran away while they were at church.

Fast forward to the relevant bit: Years after leaving (and moving an ocean away) I felt safe enough to try and regain contact with my brothers, this of course required contact with my father. One of the conversations shocked me to no end, still today more than 10 years after learning this information I get scared and sad thinking about. He told me that shortly after I came to live with him (bear in mind the entire length he could have kept me was 5 months) he hired a lawyer and went through every process he could to have my parental rights stripped and my son put up for adoption (obviously against my will). He was of course unsuccessful. I was a straight A student in honors classes, never went out, never partied, did not drink or do drugs. I was actually a very good kid in general who made a stupid mistake (and lived in an abstinence only culture). All that to say, I have thought long and hard about what I would have done had that situation come to fruition. My conclusion was and still is: I would have asked for a completely closed adoption. I still feel this knowing my son almost 14 years later. I love him so much and I think he is just the best person ever and I am so thankful that I get to be his mom. HOWEVER, had the situation gone differently, to suffer like that at 17 and who knows how much worse it would have gotten, I don't think that is something I could have ever gotten over (I am still not over everything he did to me just in those months let alone the other 16 years) and I would not want to be reminded of it later in life. It would not have been my choice and I disagree that I should have suffer more just because my son was curious. In the end we were BOTH children when the adoption would have happened, why does he get more rights then I would? I do think at the time I would have had the presence of mind to leave him a letter and possibly and explanation and photo, but I am sure that I would not want contact with him now. I would hope his adoptive family would respect that and make him feel like one of them and perhaps have asked for any information in advance that might be relevant to the situation (medical or whatnot). I would like to add that if this is not standard practice today, especially in a closed adoption, but also open, why not? Why not get all the info possible out of the birth mother, anonymize it as best as possible and be done with it? Adoption go through agencies for the most part right? This would just be a few more forms and the birth mother has less chance of being contacted later if she doesn't want to be (not to mention the undue, unfair burden that only women end up on the hook).

Now all that being said and of course only the hypothetical and I cannot predict what would have really happened and mean no disrespect to anyone who really did end up on the other side of that situation as mentioned in a post last thread(?), I realize how lucky I am, I do have another side here:

My son has grown up without his biological father. He knows nothing about him (to be honest, I have very little information to actually give and have tried to find him just see if I could get more information in the event my son asks for it). I am wholeheartedly against any contact, but I would never tell my son that or discourage/not help him/tell him that I have tried if he wanted it. We are hoping to have step-parent adoption soon (which is of course not really the same thing as a real adoption at all as far as the amount of questioning he could have), but since my son has never known the bio-dad, never met him, never even seen a photo, I think some of the issues might apply.

My question is: Why does everyone place such an emphasis on your biological connections?

I have worked so hard to raise my son that genetics don't matter. I am happy to report that I have been successful. I know this because we are dealing with my husbands parents not wanting to accept the adoption or my son (or an other adopted kids, we asked) into their family as their grandchildren because they are not blood related. I find this a disgusting thought, but another topic for another time. The point is that my son is disappointed that anyone would act that way, but flat out said he does not understand why they care who's DNA someone has. I have worked so hard to provide him an identity that is not tied to his genetics at all because I simply know there are a lot questions that cannot and will not ever be answered for him. He doesn't have these questions or cares now. We live very far away from nearly all our immediate and extended family (actually all of it at the moment) and my husband and I make it our business to have our tiny family be what he starts with as his starting point (granted it is only 5 years old and we do not ignore what has happened before). We have discussed with my son that he has a bio-dad and that we have looked and have not found anything and if that hurts him or needs us to do more (so it's not some big secret), but he has said he does not. I understand that some adoptee just have natural curiosity, just as others who search out their whole genealogy back to who knows when, but I really wonder about this whole emphasis we as a society place on biological families to begin with and why is it so important? I am completely rejected by half of my family and always have been (to point of abusive suffering and so would have preferred to wonder. Again not the same, but still a huge lack of information). You can be perfectly happy and fulfilled with out knowing that information and forming your identity on who YOU are right now (which was important to me for my son in case more than being an abusive alcoholic ever came out about his bio-dad). I also desperately understand the need and desire to have the medical information. We have had several medical issues with my son and are have a rather rough one now that we have no information on and not answer to where it could have come from (other than the obvious guess) so I really do get wanting that info. I just think of an adoptee learning for example (as stated up-thread) that they were conceived through rape. What must that do there sense of person when we act like nature is the be all end all and nurture has nothing to do with anything.

Sorry this is so long, I have so many thoughts on this topic and no one in real life to discuss with or who would answer my questions. Also I do NOT want to offend anyone and I am sorry if I do. I really appreciate everyone who has contributed especially those telling personal stories, your insight is so valuable.

[mollysmom]

On 3/24/2018 at 12:38 PM, Satan'sFortress said:

I sweartogod that I hate myself for being so shallow, but man---I wish my butt looked like hers.

Yeah, I'm totally with you on that one!!!! In our defense she is alot younger than us.....although, mine still didn't look that good when I was a teenager lol! 

On 3/24/2018 at 6:26 PM, nastyhobbitses said:

 She's like a cinnamon roll filled with ranch sauce instead of icing: looks great, you get all excited...then you take a bite and it's all wrong. 

Haha BEST ANALOGY EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jessesgirl]

8 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Thanks, @Kailash.

Actually there are three sides.  The adoptive parents, the birth mother, and the child.  The adoption triad. 

All of those sides experience loss, pain, stress, and anxiety.  I know we (and I) have slammed @Hisey on this thread - she has been obnoxious.  However, she is a part of that triad and her reactions are not that unusual.  Unkind as they may seem - she is Mama Bear, angry on behalf of her children.  She also needs to reassess her attitude to birth mothers a bit for the sake of her children.

Note that I put the child last when I described the adoption triad.  That is because the child is usually the last person considered when people emote and pontificate about the glories of adoption. And the rights of birth and adoptive parents.

Adopted children search for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes it is a hollow feeling.  Sometimes it is because they feel they need to understand why they were rejected. Sometimes it is because the adoptive home and parents rather sucked.  Sometimes the adoptive home was horribly abusive.   Sometimes it is a life or death medical situation.  

As an adult adopted child seeking basic information all my attention was on - how much will a search upset my adoptive mother?  How much will my search upset my birth mother?  What do I really need to know?  When do I need to let it go? 

I have to be sensitive to and understand all of this and care about others - but I have a need to know what is going on in MY BODY!  My doctors are telling me to search.  My doctors are actually contemptuous of me because I have stopped my search.  I'm just glad that it was just information that I needed - and decided to do without out of respect for bio-mom - and not an organ transplant to save my life.

But my needs came last.  Why?

I do understand where you are coming from.  You are feeling pressured by your half brother at the moment - but take a step back because what you say here is very wrong.

I think most adoptees are content with minimal contact,  They only want on-going relationships if something was seriously lacking in their adoptive home.  Or if they meet their bio families and really like them.

The flip side is that some adoptees have reunited with their birth families and want to run far, far, away from them.  Just saying.

"Entitled" to a relationship.  No.  The rejects from your family are not entitled to anything.  How dare they presume and you can blow them off if you want.  

We adoptees ask for contact, not on a whim, but because we have an unmet need.  Our bio families can certainly kick us in the teeth again.  It's OK.  We have already been rejected once.

But we "need" to back off and "respect" you because we are inconvenient?

Fuck that.  You are not entitled to our respect.

See what I mean?

@Palimpsest Thank you for reminding me how adoptees feel and where they are coming from. It's incredibly sad that their needs come last and they have very little power and few rights when it comes to their own life.  I stand corrected. My words were harsh and I apologize. Your story is heartbreaking and I can't imagine how difficult your experience has been. My brother has been a bit pushy and aggressive at times to the point of putting me in an uncomfortable position. I took it as far as I could with my mom until she told me to back off and that me pushing the issue was affecting our relationship. That was why  I voiced my wondering about where to draw the line. 

@Hisey went on the defensive as a mom to two adopted kids, I felt compelled to defend my mom when she was described as a bad person and a narcissist. She isn't any of those things so I went on the attack a little bit. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nikedagain?]

10 hours ago, Kailash said:

There definitely are three sides, not just two. I don't know if it’s because I’m adopted that it feels like the only one of the 3 who had no choice in this is the child. I can see how biological moms might have felt that they didn’t have a choice either. 

This. This triad has created such a conundrum for me. I am a birth mother. (I placed my daughter for adoption when I was almost 18, a closed adoption. She is 35 now) And I am an adoptive mom. My daughter found me when she was 18. It's been a strange experience. But a good one, I think. Just very uncharted territory. I am always respectful of her parents, almost to a fault. She is an only child and they are older, very very kind people. My other daughter's birthmom is a recovered heroin addict who subjected my non verbal severely autistic daughter to abuse and neglect. She had a series of very bad men that we KNOW sexually abused her (she's non verbal so...). DSS terminated her rights, she went to prison, became "born again", quickly married another addict in recovery and even more quickly had another baby. I absolutely despise her. The struggles that my child has every day (I've had her since age 5,  known her since age 3, she's almost 14 now) have been greatly compounded by this woman and her actions. She has starting emailing me, asking for pictures, "perhaps to have lunch", wants to send a card, etc. 

Sisses, tell me I am doing the right thing by ignoring her? It's such a confusing place to be. 

[2manyKidzzz]

@Nikedagain? I agree with you in ignoring her. Totally and completely. And you are amazing. 

[Carm_88]

@Nikedagain? I think for the sake of your daughter you are doing the best thing. This woman may have changed but it doesn't change the past. Your daughter was the innocent and you need to protect her. 

[justoneoftwo]

Its a whole different story when abuse is involved. (abuse of the adopted child I should say).  My H's step mother found his birth family without asking him.  He had been removed for extreme neglect and abuse.  His bio parents were dead, but his bio sister said her mom had always worried she "did the wrong thing giving him up" (I'm not sure what this meant, as she had her rights terminated, but at one point she did stop fighting it so maybe in her mind she was going to get him back?  But stopped trying after her second son died?).  Its been hard on H, do you tell the bio sister who loved and adored her parents the truth?  Do you hide it from her?  She wants a relationship, and he feels a connection, but their world views of what happened to him are so different it makes it hard.  And I can't even imagine how his mother must have felt, she had a hard enough time with him having a slight relationship with his bio sister, if his bio mom had been alive it might have killed her.  From her perspective he was choosing the family that neglected him so badly he looked 2 at age 4.  Thats horrible for her, and she is supportive, but its clear how horrible it is.  

[Georgiana]

43 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

This. This triad has created such a conundrum for me. I am a birth mother. (I placed my daughter for adoption when I was almost 18, a closed adoption. She is 35 now) And I am an adoptive mom. My daughter found me when she was 18. It's been a strange experience. But a good one, I think. Just very uncharted territory. I am always respectful of her parents, almost to a fault. She is an only child and they are older, very very kind people. My other daughter's birthmom is a recovered heroin addict who subjected my non verbal severely autistic daughter to abuse and neglect. She had a series of very bad men that we KNOW sexually abused her (she's non verbal so...). DSS terminated her rights, she went to prison, became "born again", quickly married another addict in recovery and even more quickly had another baby. I absolutely despise her. The struggles that my child has every day (I've had her since age 5,  known her since age 3, she's almost 14 now) have been greatly compounded by this woman and her actions. She has starting emailing me, asking for pictures, "perhaps to have lunch", wants to send a card, etc. 

Sisses, tell me I am doing the right thing by ignoring her? It's such a confusing place to be. 

I would first discuss with your daughter's medical team their thoughts.  Just because she is non-verbal does NOT mean your daughter can't experience trauma.  And working through her trauma might be made more difficult by her non-verbal status. Would re-introducing the mother also trigger your daughter's distress? 

This part is going to be harder to ascertain, but would re-introducing the mother ADD anything to your daughter's life?  Do you think SHE (your daughter) has any need to have her mother in her life?  If yes, it may be worth the risk.  If no, then it's an unnecessary risk that shouldn't be taken, because re-triggering trauma is very serious.  My sister had a very similar story to your daughter, and she has NO desire to reunite with mom.

So that's what I would do: be an advocate for your daughter.  Try your best to put HER needs first.  

And honestly, if your daughter needs ongoing care because of her mother's actions and mom wants to be in her life again, mom should be putting money where her mouth is.  Mom shouldn't be allowed to just have fun lunches with her daughter.  She needs to confront the real consequences of her actions that you and your daughter live every day.  Maybe she needs to help pay for additional services.  Maybe she needs to attend some therapy sessions to really understand her daughter's life.  Because it sounds to me like mom feels guilty and wants fun lunches to assuage her guilt and pretend like everything is fine.  But everything is NOT fine.  And she needs to realize that.  

[Palimpsest]

OK, scroll on by, folks, if you want to talk about the Seewalds.  I'm continuing the Great Adoption Derail of this thread.

@Nikedagain?.  Ignore her.  With prejudice.  She has no rights to access to your daughter and should be kept away.  We could get all sentimental about what terrible experiences turned her into an addict and abuser - but that doesn't make a spot of difference.  Your and your daughter's rights far outweigh hers.  We haven't talked much about the invasive birth mother here yet, but she gave up her rights (or her rights were taken away from her for cause.)

I'm glad your birth daughter found you.  You are a fantastic person. I wish you both the best on that reunification journey. 

@Jessesgirl, thanks.  I'm so sorry your brother is being so pushy.  And thanks for understanding where I was coming from.  My post sounded angrier than I intended when I read it over.  I'm actually not an angry adoptee (I've spent far too long processing my story!), but I was trying to explain why some adoptees do feel (justifiably) angry if they are told to go away, stop bothering bio-family, and suck it up.  (Not that you did that.) Adopted children aren't entitled to much - but they are entitled to their feelings.  

@StraightOuttaArkansas, you have a lot to contribute to the discussion, and I'm glad you joined in.  You have an incredibly sad story, I'm so sorry, and a different perspective.  Your father sounds like a disgusting human being.  I'll leave it at that because I don't have enough swear words in my vocabulary to cover what I think of him.

7 hours ago, StraightOuttaArkansas said:

<snipped for clarity>
All that to say, I have thought long and hard about what I would have done had that situation come to fruition. My conclusion was and still is: I would have asked for a completely closed adoption. I still feel this knowing my son almost 14 years later. I love him so much and I think he is just the best person ever and I am so thankful that I get to be his mom. HOWEVER, had the situation gone differently, to suffer like that at 17 and who knows how much worse it would have gotten, I don't think that is something I could have ever gotten over (I am still not over everything he did to me just in those months let alone the other 16 years) and I would not want to be reminded of it later in life. It would not have been my choice and I disagree that I should have suffer more just because my son was curious. In the end we were BOTH children when the adoption would have happened, why does he get more rights then I would?

He doesn't have more rights in a closed adoption.  The birth mother has the power to reject contact.  Both parties may be suffering, but Bio-mom's rights win.  It may upset her if the child miraculously finds a way to make contact, but that is the tragic side of adoption.  BTW, Angry Adoptee Rights groups are trying to change this but I don't agree with them.  There are reasons for closed adoptions.  

Quote

I do think at the time I would have had the presence of mind to leave him a letter and possibly and explanation and photo, but I am sure that I would not want contact with him now. I would hope his adoptive family would respect that and make him feel like one of them and perhaps have asked for any information in advance that might be relevant to the situation (medical or whatnot). I would like to add that if this is not standard practice today, especially in a closed adoption, but also open, why not? Why not get all the info possible out of the birth mother, anonymize it as best as possible and be done with it? Adoption go through agencies for the most part right? This would just be a few more forms and the birth mother has less chance of being contacted later if she doesn't want to be (not to mention the undue, unfair burden that only women end up on the hook).

I completely agree. I think this should be Best Practice - and it is encouraged by good adoption agencies.  It isn't standard practice or legislated in any way though, AFAIK.  You know why?  Because Adoptive Parents Advocacy Groups fight any and all attempts at adoption reform.  It supposedly threatens their rights. 

Quote

My question is: Why does everyone place such an emphasis on your biological connections?

I don't know.  I do think in inter-racial and international adoptions, history and contact with the original culture are very important for adopted children.  Otherwise, not so much.  Also, we have all those shows like "Who do you think you are" where celebrities find their ancestors and sob about how they feel soooo connected to them and hope they have "inherited their strength." Those sentimental shows irritate me, I'm afraid.  Although the history part interests me, I seldom watch them.  I have no ancestors to sob about and decide that their noses look just like mine.  I just shrug.

Quote

The point is that my son is disappointed that anyone would act that way, but flat out said he does not understand why they care who's DNA someone has.

I am so sorry he and you are going through this.  Please give him a hug from me and tell him I agree.

I found all of your post very insightful and thoughtful.  Thank you.

I'll just add one more thing to this lengthy post.  I think few adopted children search for their roots, or especially for birth parents, lightly. The road-blocks (and their are many in closed adoptions) usually screen out the mildly curious.  If a person searches it is almost always for a much better reason than, "well I just wondered."

[Nikedagain?]

She has no legal rights. We are from a very small town, one of those where everyone knows everyone.(or they are related)  Because it was a kinship care placement initially, there were a couple of supervised visits, so she knew who I was. The bio mom's mother is just a really sad person. I have a lot of compassion for her situation. We exchanged emails back then and she has always been very, very respectful and just makes very basic inquiries a few times a year. I don't send photos or anything like that. When the bio mom got arrested and we went through all the court stuff, I would see her there. She is a person who has no boundaries and feels very very entitled. The few visits (when she bothered to show up...) were very traumatic for my daughter, but they were court ordered. I know it scared her, thinking that she might be going back to a time and place where bad things happened to her. I would never allow her to see her, I think bio mom knows that, but is very worried about what the church folks are thinking about her now. She somehow got one of my photos off of facebook and made it a profile picture lamenting her loss. (I locked things down after that and deleted any possible mutual connections) She says she needs medical information so that she can avoid autism with this baby. (ummm, we had to hunt down medical information with court orders because she was only taken to emergency rooms for the first 3 years and bio mom had no recollection) But I don't even want to answer any emails.   They are all attempts to manipulate my emotions (she can't) and try to make excuses for past behavior (again, she can't). All of the therapists, ABA, OT, ST and her MAPs Dr. agree that trauma has had so much to do with the fact that she is still completely non verbal, but her receptive language is perfect. It has taken a long time and a lot of work on everyone's part to get her this far! I wish there was some type of therapy, like EMDR that could benefit her. She's not terribly compliant  sometimes and we are struggling to find some way to help her process her trauma. I am wide open to any suggestions! 

[singsingsing]

If Jessa is secretly six months pregnant, she sure hides it well.

[justoneoftwo]

3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

If Jessa is secretly six months pregnant, she sure hides it well.

This, combined with the look on her face when Ben mentioned 3 under 4 makes me even more sure she is not.  I hope she continues to wait as it appears she is happy with her two.

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

This, combined with the look on her face when Ben mentioned 3 under 4 makes me even more sure she is not.  I hope she continues to wait as it appears she is happy with her two.

that look on Jessa's face was priceless. I think the J'slaves also remember being Mini moms so Jessa and Jinger are less likely to want to take that on again. Jill is too steeped in the kool aid still I think but her c-sections will slow her down. Joy and the lost girls I think might go for the big families because they never really saw the true hardships the Duggar's went through  and the child care didn't really fall on them. Joy maybe remembers it a little but she still had Jana to take care of the kids even when the others married and moved out. 

[viii]

Yeah, I've switched camps and am now firmly in the Jessa is NOT pregnant camp. Between the recent pictures of her, plus the People mag article about them discussing another baby, I don't think she's pregnant yet. However, I DO think she'll be pregnant before the end of 2018. 

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, viii said:

Yeah, I've switched camps and am now firmly in the Jessa is NOT pregnant camp. Between the recent pictures of her, plus the People mag article about them discussing another baby, I don't think she's pregnant yet. However, I DO think she'll be pregnant before the end of 2018. 

I'm starting to hope she won't.  The boys seem to be a handful, and Ben seems to be involved.  They may have less time and energy for fellowship.  Further, she didn't BF that long with Spurge but has with Henry, so maybe that will help slow them down too.  They may just know more and be less inclined to try now.  But I do hope she sticks with 2 for a bit.

[viii]

Oh, I fully agree! I hope that she'll enjoy the 2 she has for a bit, possibly even into 2020, but I just don't think that's going to happen for them. 

[Carm_88]

Oh god in heaven! I am literally wearing the same dress. I thought this morning I looked Duggar like, now it's been confirmed. 

[Bad Wolf]

I once had a plaid shirt like Michelle. It wasn't green, though.

[HarleyQuinn]

But what if I don't want to take my "Jessa is pregnant" tinfoil hat off?!

[Glasgowghirl]

5 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

This. This triad has created such a conundrum for me. I am a birth mother. (I placed my daughter for adoption when I was almost 18, a closed adoption. She is 35 now) And I am an adoptive mom. My daughter found me when she was 18. It's been a strange experience. But a good one, I think. Just very uncharted territory. I am always respectful of her parents, almost to a fault. She is an only child and they are older, very very kind people. My other daughter's birthmom is a recovered heroin addict who subjected my non verbal severely autistic daughter to abuse and neglect. She had a series of very bad men that we KNOW sexually abused her (she's non verbal so...). DSS terminated her rights, she went to prison, became "born again", quickly married another addict in recovery and even more quickly had another baby. I absolutely despise her. The struggles that my child has every day (I've had her since age 5,  known her since age 3, she's almost 14 now) have been greatly compounded by this woman and her actions. She has starting emailing me, asking for pictures, "perhaps to have lunch", wants to send a card, etc. 

Sisses, tell me I am doing the right thing by ignoring her? It's such a confusing place to be. 

You are right to deny her access to your child, she let men abuse her and being on drugs is no excuse for that. Your daughter doesn't need someone like that around and even if she has gotten clean that doesn't make what she did right.