Joy and Austin 17: Staying Off the Internet

[nelliebelle1197]

44 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I'll "weigh" in on this one...

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to say commenting on someone's weight in a normal way is off limits. How is that any more or less offensive then commenting on someone's hairstyle/clothes/religion/lifestyle/spousal selection/parenting skills/general appearance? This is effectively a gossiping site. That's totally fine (I obviously enjoy it), but let's not get it twisted. Commenting on fundies and getting the dish on their crazy lives is why we're all here, and while I think it's important not to be straight up mean or hateful, the general gossiping rules apply...which means that basically everything, including someone's weight, are going to come up occasionally.

With that said, I think there is a HUGE difference between normal, largely benevolent gossip ("Whitney is looking FINE just a few months after having a baby! How does she do it??"/"Joy is carrying a lot like Jill, I hope she opts for a hospital birth in case it's another 10-pound blessing"/"Alyssa and Jinger have always been very slim"/"Michaela has looked a bit fuller lately...hormonal treatments can do that, so I'm glad Brandon supports her decision to take advantage of modern medicine if that's the case"/"Josh has looked a lot bigger since rehab, I hope he's not using food to cope with the stress"/"So-and-so has such a great figure, she's so curvy and feminine"/"So-and-so has a lot to work with but her styling could be way better"/"I'm so glad So-and-so is just enjoying life and not stressing so much about staying a size 2") and hateful, invasive, rude, honestly unacceptable bashing ("So-and-so looks like a freaking cow, how far along is she?! She probably has gestational diabetes. Lay off the Cheetos"/"So-and-so is so bony and anorexic-looking, what man would want to have sex with her?"/"So-and-so's titties are on the floor, can't she get a decent bra?"/"I see So-and-so still hasn't lost the baby weight"/"So-and-so clearly was getting it on before marriage because she is way too YUUUUUUUUUGE to be only five months along").

As long as the comments are sensible and not particularly venomous, I don't see why weight (or any other class of comments) should be off-limits.

The comments were not sensible and were rather venomous. And fat shaming is not and has never been allowed in the near decade I have been here. Period.

[ElToro]

Ok... I'm girding my loins in preparation for the down votes, BUT, in Jill's defence....

According to the article, she went into hospital after 50 hours but then, presumably, the doctors let the labour continue for another, what, 10-20 hours, under medical supervision and advice, before the C-section. Surely this would not have happened if Israel was in that much distress when they first arrived?

(This doesn't let her off the strange choice to labor for hours with  Sammy either)

Good luck to Joy (and all pregnant women!)... No-one should have to go through that...

[Rachel333]

4 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

The comments were not sensible and were rather venomous. And fat shaming is not and has never been allowed in the near decade I have been here. Period.

What did you think of the discussions of Josh's weight pre-scandal? I remember saying I was bothered by the fat shaming and being surprised by how much pushback I got by members who thought it was just fine to snark about his weight (and it was serious fat shaming, worse, IMO, than the comment that rightly got people upset in this thread). I eventually just decided I was going to avoid that topic because it was so frustrating for me.

I feel like there has been a big shift in board culture (for the better, I think!) in some respects and people are a lot less mean than they used to be.

Now, I don't know that even back then people would have tolerated fat-shaming the girls. I do think there's a difference in that women's weight and appearance is far more tied into their perceived value in our culture than it is for men.

[nelliebelle1197]

2 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

What did you think of the discussions of Josh's weight pre-scandal? I remember saying I was bothered by the fat shaming and being surprised by how much pushback I got by members who thought it was just fine to snark about his weight (and it was serious fat shaming, worse, IMO, than the comment that rightly got people upset in this thread). I eventually just decided I was going to avoid that topic because it was so frustrating for me.

I feel like there has been a big shift in board culture (for the better, I think!) in some respects and people are a lot less mean than they used to be.

Now, I don't know that even back then people would have tolerated fat-shaming the girls. I do think there's a difference in that women's weight and appearance is far more tied into their perceived value in our culture than it is for men.

I felt the same way. I thought it was ridiculous. I think I even made a comment along the line of how it was not fair to do that to him but call out people talking about women, then someone yelled at me about how women are held to different standards blahblah... remember all that?

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I felt the same way. I thought it was ridiculous. I think I even made a comment along the line of how it was not fair to do that to him but call out people talking about women, then someone yelled at me about how women are held to different standards blahblah... remember all that?

I remember other people objecting, but it felt like we were definitely in the minority at the time.

Even now I feel no sympathy for Josh as a person but I still don't think there's a good reason for that kind of weight-based snark.

[singsingsing]

22 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Jill: I'm very surprised by her seemingly changing worldview.

How has Jill's worldview changed? I've seen no evidence of a change in her worldview whatsoever. She seems to have put on a pair of jeans and gotten her nosed pierced, but otherwise holds to exactly the seem ignorant, bigoted and oppressive beliefs she always has.

23 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Jinger: Girlfriend is totally mainstream Christian.

I know there are far more conservative/zealous Christians in the U.S., but if Jinger is classified as a mainstream Christian, I am very afraid for humanity.

[nelliebelle1197]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

How has Jill's worldview changed? I've seen no evidence of a change in her worldview whatsoever. She seems to have put on a pair of jeans and gotten her nosed pierced, but otherwise holds to exactly the seem ignorant, bigoted and oppressive beliefs she always has.

I know there are far more conservative/zealous Christians in the U.S., but if Jinger is classified as a mainstream Christian, I am very afraid for humanity.

 People seem to think that throwing away a dress code = cool new attitude and core changes. See Alyssa "#superficialtwit" Bates. Pants and piercings do not mean IBLP is out of the system! Call me when she is pro choice and hanging out with a gay couple.

[luv2laugh]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

How has Jill's worldview changed? I've seen no evidence of a change in her worldview whatsoever. She seems to have put on a pair of jeans and gotten her nosed pierced, but otherwise holds to exactly the seem ignorant, bigoted and oppressive beliefs she always has.

I know there are far more conservative/zealous Christians in the U.S., but if Jinger is classified as a mainstream Christian, I am very afraid for humanity.

Jill is showing baby steps of a changing worldview. She is wearing jeans, pierced her nose, getting henna, hanging out with people of other faiths, interacting with college students, etc. She is being exposed to people who believe differently and these changes in her appearance are signs of her questioning her old, rigid IFB fundie belief system. She is showing she is not afraid of change and differences. Obviously, I cannot say the same for her hateful husband but I am surprised and impressed with Jill.

Jinger would fit right in with the hipster, evangelical Bible college youth leaders I had back in high school.

[nausicaa]

I generally follow @bananabread 's approach to discussing weight. I don't think it should be completely off topic, because there are times when it can signify other issues (e.g., The Rods' parents weight in contrast to their children's, Josh's weight gain after marriage possibly being a sign of depression or food restrictions while growing up) and drastic changes can seem disingenuous not to address . 

However, I also understand why people take the "never discuss weight ever" approach, because discussions of weight so easily turn into nothing but name calling (see: The Josh pre-scandal discussions). Unfortunately it all too often goes into BEC, which is what I think the discussions of Joy's appearance are now and have always been.

[Georgiana]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

How has Jill's worldview changed? I've seen no evidence of a change in her worldview whatsoever. She seems to have put on a pair of jeans and gotten her nosed pierced, but otherwise holds to exactly the seem ignorant, bigoted and oppressive beliefs she always has.

I know there are far more conservative/zealous Christians in the U.S., but if Jinger is classified as a mainstream Christian, I am very afraid for humanity.

They are both very likely still the same IBLP, Gothard-believing fundies they were raised to be, just now in chic clothing.  

Because the movement is changing.  They've realized that "setting themselves apart" by dressing like prairie women and middle-aged GOP politicians isn't bringing in the converts anymore.  They realized they need to APPEAL to mainstream Christians and young people.  And how do you do that?  Nowadays, you do that by looking perfect on social media...and part of that is dressing the part.  

It's a sales tool.  A trick.  Wolves literally donning the clothing of the sheep.  If anything, the beliefs that Jill in particular pushes via her husband are WORSE, not better.  JB at least had the decorum to stick to attacking adults for their beliefs.  

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

hanging out with people of other faiths,

She's not "hanging out" with them. She's actively trying to convert them to her brand of poisonous religion.

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Jill is showing baby steps of a changing worldview. She is wearing jeans, pierced her nose, getting henna, hanging out with people of other faiths, interacting with college students, etc. She is being exposed to people who believe differently and these changes in her appearance are signs of her questioning her old, rigid IFB fundie belief system. She is showing she is not afraid of change and differences. Obviously, I cannot say the same for her hateful husband but I am surprised and impressed with Jill.

Jinger would fit right in with the hipster, evangelical Bible college youth leaders I had back in high school.

She's only showing that she's not afraid to make changes to her appearance, and an argument could be made (and has been made here by multiple people in the very recent past) that she's made said changes because she's trying to appeal to the college crowd she's suddenly found herself ministering to. And she's not trying to appeal to them because she's looking for new friends. Jill's not 'hanging out' with people of different faiths, she's trying to convert from from their own religion to her particularly nasty and messed up strain of fundamentalist Christianity. 

[luv2laugh]

4 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

She's not "hanging out" with them. She's actively trying to convert them to her brand of poisonous religion.

True, however, some of the IFB fundies I know would not dare interact with "worldly people". Both Jill and Jinger are obviously no longer following the separatist approach of IFB fundamentalism. I think that Jill and Jinger are aiming to gain converts to their fundie-lite form of Christianity rather than the rigid, Quiverfull IFB fundamentalism of their upbringing.  In my own opinion, for this to happen in about 3 years of time is a bit of progress. Who knows what they will believe in 10 years? It will be interesting to find out.

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, luv2laugh said:

True, however, some of the IFB fundies I know would not dare interact with "worldly people". Both Jill and Jinger are obviously no longer following the separatist approach of IFB fundamentalism.

The Duggars have never ascribed to this belief. They've always been more than happy to interact with 'worldly people'. They're evangelicals. They're trying as hard as they can to sell their toxic brand of fundamentalist Christianity, so they have to interact with worldly people. Absolutely nothing has changed there.

[nelliebelle1197]

15 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I generally follow @bananabread 's approach to discussing weight. I don't think it should be completely off topic, because there are times when it can signify other issues (e.g., The Rods' parents weight in contrast to their children's, Josh's weight gain after marriage possibly being a sign of depression or food restrictions while growing up) and drastic changes can seem disingenuous not to address . 

However, I also understand why people take the "never discuss weight ever" approach, because discussions of weight so easily turn into nothing but name calling (see: The Josh pre-scandal discussions). Unfortunately it all too often goes into BEC, which is what I think the discussions of Joy's appearance are now and have always been.

I think the Rod weight is a whole 'nother thing. There is something really wrong when daddy's belly touches his knees and kiddies can fit in a wrapping paper tube! Or the Maxwells, who use food as punishment.

[luv2laugh]

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

The Duggars have never ascribed to this belief. They've always been more than happy to interact with 'worldly people'. They're evangelicals. They're trying as hard as they can to sell their toxic brand of fundamentalist Christianity, so they have to interact with worldly people. Absolutely nothing has changed there.

My point is, Jill & Jinger aren't ascribing to the same lifestyle and beliefs of say, David and Priscilla Waller.  They are slowly becoming like regular mainstream Christians.

[Whatthefundie]

I have been lurking on this site for a while now, and this is my first post! I know this is completely off topic, but do you guys think that any of the Duggars would attempt to have a home birth if they were having twins? 

[nelliebelle1197]

1 minute ago, luv2laugh said:

My point is, Jill & Jinger aren't ascribing to the same lifestyle and beliefs of say, David and Priscilla Waller.  They are slowly becoming like regular mainstream Christians.

And I think what we are all telling you is that you are wrong on that. IBLP has always had families that had different lifestyles and dress. The Duggars and Bates are extremes.  I am wondering what your evidence is on the changing beliefs.

[Georgiana]

Just now, nausicaa said:

I generally follow @bananabread 's approach to discussing weight. I don't think it should be completely off topic, because there are times when it clearly signifies issues, and it also seems disingenuous not to address (e.g., The Rods' parents weight in contrast to their children's, Josh's weight gain after marriage possibly being a sign of depression or food restrictions while growing). 

However, I also understand why people take the "never discuss weight ever" approach, because discussions of weight so easily turn into nothing but name calling (see: The Josh pre-scandal discussions). Unfortunately it all too often goes into BEC, which is what I think the discussions of Joy's appearance are now and have always been.

Right.  The Rods are a GREAT example, especially as they have clearly shown that "Mama and Daddy" have access to "special treats" that the kiddos are not invited to share in.  Genetics, age, etc. may play into the Rod weight discrepancy, but so do the parents' copious "date nights" dining out, their movie snacks, their couple trips where they dine out for every meal, the fact that the kids are encouraged to do full fasts...and so on.  That is fair fodder for discussion.  

Other examples, for me, are people like Zsu who are ALWAYS bragging about their SUPERIOR diets or whatever.  Zsu has actually lost a lot of weight with this pregnancy, but for a long time, it was a little rich for her to be telling other women how to lose weight and maintain a healthy weight or judge other women for what they ate.  And she did that for YEARS.  I also try not to snark on clothing, but it gets a bit much when Zsuzsanna of the Ill-fitting Clothes tries to tell me how to dress better.  I don't take financial advice from someone filing bankruptcy, and I don't take appearance advice from someone who has...erm...not achieved the look I am going for.  

But human bodies naturally fluctuate weights for most people.  Unless you are bragging about your superiority OR being selfish with your food when you have kids to feed, I think you should be allowed to lose or gain weight just like anyone else.  

[tabitha2]

Right. They believe their God given mission is to be Fishers if men, to preach, proselytize and missionary to the heathen. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 minute ago, luv2laugh said:

They are slowly becoming like regular mainstream Christians.

Because they're wearing jeans? OK, then - by your reasoning - today I'm a regular mainstream Christian because I'm wearing jeans. (I'm not a Christian and I don't normally wear jeans to work, but FUCK... it's cold.)

[Jenn The Heathen]

I’ll even go one step further and say Jill is wearing pants solely to garner some positive attention.  People on social media act like Jinger cures cancer every time she puts on a pair of pants and Jill has to see it.  Now the Dillard brand is failing and they’re out of easy TV money thanks to Derek’s giant, bigoted mouth so she’s doing what she can to salvage her dwindling popularity.

And until I see or hear any Duggar or their spouse condemn the hateful nature of their religion and get out into the community to get to know the groups (LGBTQA, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Atheists) they’ve looked down on for so long, I’ll continue to believe they are still hateful where it counts.  Pants, nose rings, and less then eleventy billion kids don’t mean they’ve changed their worldview.

[singsingsing]

5 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

My point is, they aren't ascribing to the same lifestyle and beliefs of say, David and Priscilla Waller.  They are slowly becoming like regular mainstream Christians.

And my point is that this is absolutely untrue. For one thing, I've never seen any indication that David and Priscilla remove themselves from the world and refuse to associate with people who aren't just like them. For another, not being exactly like David and Priscilla Waller does not mean that someone is slowly morphing into a mainstream Christian. There are different flavours of fundie, and different fundie groups are made up of unique individuals. Some are more or less extreme. Some get more or less extreme all the time. Some care more about clothing, some more about dancing or alcohol, some more about nitty gritty theological details. They're still fundies.

[nelliebelle1197]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

The Duggars have never ascribed to this belief. They've always been more than happy to interact with 'worldly people'. They're evangelicals. They're trying as hard as they can to sell their toxic brand of fundamentalist Christianity, so they have to interact with worldly people. Absolutely nothing has changed there.

And part of IBLP is pulling other families in. The Vision Forum crowd was more isolationist than the IBLP. It comes out of the whole in the world but not of the world mindset.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

My point is, Jill & Jinger aren't ascribing to the same lifestyle and beliefs of say, David and Priscilla Waller.  They are slowly becoming like regular mainstream Christians.

I've been gone for a while and have never followed this stuff outside of what I read on FJ, so it's nice to see some good news.

I was under the impression Jill and Derrick were converting Catholics and Jeremy was preaching about the evils of homosexuality...has this stopped?  In what ways are they more mainstream now?

Not being snarky at all, I'm happy to hear of any movement in a less toxic direction and could use some good news right about now.