Joy and Austin 17: Staying Off the Internet

[MargaretElliott]

Guys, I'm so glad we're still on this subject, because I was wondering about US vs UK bra sizes... for Christmas, my SO got me some stuff from a UK-based lingerie company, and the bra fit... catastrophically. Are UK bra sizes drastically different from American sizes? Or do fancy lingerie companies just use (gasp) actual inches? It seems like the lower-quality ones arbitrarily deciding "Hey, this bra says its band size is 38, that means it should be either 36 or 40, inches right? Right." This is why I hate shopping for bras. And online. Shopping for bras online is a special hell.

But they're so pretty...

[RainbowSky]

On 12/27/2017 at 11:50 AM, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Lets hope Austin has more brains than Derrick, Ben, Josh etc... in allowing their wives to pick and choose where and how to deliver their babies.  But these folks have never done what we hopped they didn't yet so...

No, she isn't carrying triplets big, but IMO she does look closer to term than 6/8/10 weeks (6 at least 10 weeks at most). But she, like her older sisters, seems to be having a big baby and she doesn't have the room to that her taller sisters had for that baby to spread out so s/he has nowhere to go but out.   And saying that she look closer to term I don't think she IS, I was the same way with #1 I was just HUGE, between the baby and the water retention (which she could also have a lot of here) makes for momma to be VERY miserable.

Okay so...if they're called girls, people freak. They're grown, married women.

If their headship won't let them do xx  thing because whatever reason, it's bullshit. They're grown and their husband shouldn't be the be all end all of permission to do something. 

But the MEN are supposed to dictate how and where the woman actually giving birth is going to shove a human out of a small hole...and THIS is okay? The fuck? 

[justoneoftwo]

7 minutes ago, RainbowSky said:

But the MEN are supposed to dictate how and where the woman actually giving birth is going to shove a human out of a small hole...and THIS is okay? The fuck? 

It doesn't seem like this is actually something the men dictate.  From most of my reading most fundie women pick how to do it (often based on their beliefs yes, but still they chose).  Do we know that any of these men are dictating it?

[singsingsing]

9 minutes ago, RainbowSky said:

Okay so...if they're called girls, people freak. They're grown, married women.

If their headship won't let them do xx  thing because whatever reason, it's bullshit. They're grown and their husband shouldn't be the be all end all of permission to do something. 

But the MEN are supposed to dictate how and where the woman actually giving birth is going to shove a human out of a small hole...and THIS is okay? The fuck? 

I didn't get the impression that @allthegoodnamesrgone was actually suggesting that it would be a good thing if the men controlled their wives' reproductive choices, merely that she was pointing out that their reality is that the men (supposedly) have authority over their wives, and that Joy in particular seems to look to Austin to make the major decisions; so, given that reality, 'let's hope that Austin has more sense'. Not that Austin should dictate her choices, but that he probably does dictate her choices, so let's hope he makes a good choice. (I don't really agree or disagree, just giving what I think was the OP's intended meaning - @allthegoodnamesrgone, please forgive me if I've misrepresented what you meant to say!)

[RainbowSky]

I've seen it mentioned like this before and couldn't believe it then, either. I hope that it's meant if the woman looks to her man, THEN he decides based on what she would prefer.

Because otherwise,  bullshit.

 

 

[justoneoftwo]

If its just a statement that you hope he has more sense then that doesn't even mean he dictates it.  Sometimes a partner can talk to someone who isn't making the best medical choices and can show a different point of view.  (If I wanted a home birth and my headship was worried about it him "having more sense" would manifest as discussing it and maybe giving me more information).

[Satan'sFortress]

On 12/28/2017 at 8:38 PM, Carm_88 said:

34DD is barely a size and 32E does not exist. I hate bra shopping. I love pretty bras but I hate bra shopping. Just because I have big boobs does not mean that I'm at least a 36. It will not fit! Stop telling me it will fit! 

Though I will say that if you are wearing the wrong size, getting the right size can be a slice of heaven! 

 

I have 32 E bras!  They are Wacoal's Awareness bras in 32DD (a US version of the European 32E).  They aren't exactly pretty, but they get the job done.

Sadly, I actually need a 30 band size.  I feel like a freak because I have a small band size, and apparently huge boobs.

[singsingsing]

19 minutes ago, RainbowSky said:

I've seen it mentioned like this before and couldn't believe it then, either. I hope that it's meant if the woman looks to her man, THEN he decides based on what she would prefer.

Because otherwise,  bullshit.

Well, I mean... believe it. These people are fundies. They believe that the man is the 'headship' and the woman is his 'helpmeet'. They believe in wifely submission and men's authority over women. If Jill was bound and determined to not vaccinate her children, for example, and I said, 'I hope Derick decides that they will vaccinate', it's not because I think that's the way it should be - that husbands should make decisions for their wives - it's because I know that's the way it is for them, and when you acknowledge that reality, of course you're left hoping that the husband will use his "authority" to make a good choice.

[Shadoewolf]

1 hour ago, RainbowSky said:

I've seen it mentioned like this before and couldn't believe it then, either. I hope that it's meant if the woman looks to her man, THEN he decides based on what she would prefer.

Because otherwise,  bullshit.

 

 

I'm going to disagree when it comes to safety. For example, Derick should have never allowed Izzy's birth to go on so long at home, and he probably should have stepped in for whatever happened with Sam too. If Joy wants to do a homebirth with someone completely unqualified then in my (probably unpopular) opinion yes, Austin should use his power as the headship to put his foot down for a safe delivery. 

[justoneoftwo]

7 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

I'm going to disagree when it comes to safety. For example, Derick should have never allowed Izzy's birth to go on so long at home, and he probably should have stepped in for whatever happened with Sam too. If Joy wants to do a homebirth with someone completely unqualified then in my (probably unpopular) opinion yes, Austin should use his power as the headship to put his foot down for a safe delivery. 

I'll be unpopular here too.  A partner should put their foot down when their loved one is endangering themselves (and their child).  You don't have to be a headship to do so.  Derick probably should have put a stop to things (I expect he trusted Jill because she "knew more" then he did).  Partners should look out for one another, its complicated if the patient has greater say but is being unsafe, but in their case Derick supposedly could have stopped it.

[Percy]

3 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I have 32 E bras!  They are Wacoal's Awareness bras in 32DD (a US version of the European 32E).  They aren't exactly pretty, but they get the job done.

Sadly, I actually need a 30 band size.  I feel like a freak because I have a small band size, and apparently huge boobs.

My daughter also has this problem, she is tall and skinny, with large breasts for her frame.

She wanted to try out for next top model but was discouraged because she does not have a sample size body.  She has to go to specialist bra shops, and whinges because her bra size is never found on the sales racks.

I told her on the up side she could model swim wear, she was not happy with this suggestion.  

Her new aim is to run a doggy day care.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'll be unpopular here too.  A partner should put their foot down when their loved one is endangering themselves (and their child).  You don't have to be a headship to do so.  Derick probably should have put a stop to things (I expect he trusted Jill because she "knew more" then he did).  Partners should look out for one another, its complicated if the patient has greater say but is being unsafe, but in their case Derick supposedly could have stopped it.

I’m going to agree with this too. I’m a big supporter of women making choices best for them and their situation, but if the decision she is making is blatantly dangerous or an obviously bad choice then I do think someone needs to step in to set her straight - a lot of times that’ll be the mother’s partner, but it could also be someone else (her parents, siblings, friends, medical provider.) If the situation isn’t dangerous then the ultimate decision should be chosen by the mother, but if she is making dangerous choices that goes out the window. 

So while I hope that Joy (and Kendra and Jinger) makes smart choices, I also very much hope that Austin (and Joseph and Jeremy) is ready to put a stop to any potentially dangerous choices that are made. Joy’s safety and the safety of their child is far more important than getting her ideal birth is (though I do hope birth ends up being a positive experience for any woman.)

[adidas]

I’m VERY late to this, but I wanted to thank whoever posted the reddit bra size calculator. I hope I’m in the right thread haha.

I clicked on the link while I was away visiting family and when I got home I got the measuring tape out. I’ve been wearing the wrong size (only by a little bit) but I need to buy new bras and it was really timely.

So thank you!

[Mela99]

Pickles posted what she thinks is Joy's registry on Amazon. Not sure I believe it - it's way too modest and small for a Duggars registry

[LittleOwl]

On 05/01/2018 at 9:31 PM, Satan'sFortress said:

Sadly, I actually need a 30 band size.  I feel like a freak because I have a small band size, and apparently huge boobs.

I feel your pain! I'm a 28FF, and usually spend about 30£ a go on a bra! 

I was following a "body positive" advocate on Instagram and she posted something saying an F cup in a 30 band is not a big cup, but an F cup in a 40 band is a big cup so stop saying you're a big cup.  

I unfollowed her because it seemed too critical. I mean yeah my ladies aren't the biggest on the planet, and are no where near a 40F, but in proportion to my rib cage they aren't small! 

[EmainMacha]

@MargaretElliott I think there is a difference between UK and US sizes. Are you on Facebook? There's a group called Boob or bust that helps with sizing. Though they don't measure the tradition way I find their method results in more support when you get used to a tighter band.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

On 1/5/2018 at 7:20 PM, VelociRapture said:

I’m going to agree with this too. I’m a big supporter of women making choices best for them and their situation, but if the decision she is making is blatantly dangerous or an obviously bad choice then I do think someone needs to step in to set her straight - a lot of times that’ll be the mother’s partner, but it could also be someone else (her parents, siblings, friends, medical provider.) If the situation isn’t dangerous then the ultimate decision should be chosen by the mother, but if she is making dangerous choices that goes out the window. 

So while I hope that Joy (and Kendra and Jinger) makes smart choices, I also very much hope that Austin (and Joseph and Jeremy) is ready to put a stop to any potentially dangerous choices that are made. Joy’s safety and the safety of their child is far more important than getting her ideal birth is (though I do hope birth ends up being a positive experience for any woman.)

Exactly. For all woman's body woman's choice when the father is involved and mom is making poor choices, the dad should be able to put a stop to it. The child is his as well, and he should have a some say if what mom is doing could risk her life or the child's life.  I to would hope that if Jill is the midwife for her sister and things aren't going well Austin steps and makes the smart choice.  I just hope that Austin's parents encouraged them to seek prenatal care. Does anyone know if Austin's sister had her baby at home or in the hospital? 

[SapphireSlytherin]

15 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

For all woman's body woman's choice when the father is involved and mom is making poor choices, the dad should be able to put a stop to it. The child is his as well, and he should have a some say if what mom is doing could risk her life or the child's life. 

I have a question, and I'm not picking on you at all. And the question is for probably everyone at FJ:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

[nvmbr02]

28 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I have a question, and I'm not picking on you at all. And the question is for probably everyone at FJ:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

To be honest I haven't really thought much about the topic as a whole. Thankfully I have never needed to and Dh and I have pretty much been on the same page as far as pregnancy and delivery goes and when we have disagreed he has always deferred to me.

But, if I had to pick I was say the point of viability is when a dad (or the other partner) should have a greater influence on the decision making, if not equal to moms, at least as far as things that directly influence the babies health. If it is just a risk to mom or before viability then I do feel that the woman should have control over her body.

It is getting late here and I should be going to bed so I hope that makes sense. There are so many different factors though, it is so hard to put things into absolutes. 

[nastyhobbitses]

28 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I have a question, and I'm not picking on you at all. And the question is for probably everyone at FJ:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

Frankly, I think it depends on the relationship. If I had a one-night stand with no intention of having any relationship beyond one night of sex, got pregnant, wanted an abortion, and somehow the one-night stand got wind of it and didn't want me to, nope, you don't get a vote. Especially if you have no intention of co-parenting or contributing to this baby's upbringing (and if he did, I would not want to co-parent with someone I barely know). If my boyfriend got me pregnant, I wanted an abortion, and he didn't want me to do it, I would be willing to hear him out because I think our relationship is such that I would feel comfortable co-parenting with him (either within the relationship or if we broke up), but ultimately, I have supreme executive power. 

[victoriasponge]

35 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I have a question, and I'm not picking on you at all. And the question is for probably everyone at FJ:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

I’m probably going to get downvoted to all hell for this but here goes. 

I think, ultimately, nobody can force a woman to carry a baby she doesn’t want to carry. This would open the floodgates for abusive partners to force women into having children they don’t want. However, there should at least be some mediation if only for the mental health of both parents. 

Additionally, I think there should be a legal recourse for one parent but not the other to give up parenting rights during pregnancy. So if a woman is willing to carry and deliver the baby but not raise it, that should be possible, with no demands for child support. At least that way the father would know what he was getting into when he asked her not to terminate. And the same should at least be possible the other way around,  father who does not want a baby should be able to give up parenting rights. Though I understand it would be difficult to implement well without running the risk of men going around knocking loads of women up and disowning all children, ultimately hurting lots of people in the process. 

These grey areas are just so hard to legislate, I’m not sure how you could do it without hurting somebody in the process, which isn’t what I would want to do. But, at the end of the day, I can see why it would be really hard on a man, especially one in a committed relationship, to have to overcome the termination of what was, for him, a wanted baby. It’s why i’d hope most couples really talk about these things and their positions, and are careful with contraception.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

44 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I have a question, and I'm not picking on you at all. And the question is for probably everyone at FJ:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

I have actually thought of this, and ultimately it is the woman's choice, IMO. However she also has to accept the fallout from her choice. Ultimately I would hope that mom & dad would be on the same page either wanting the child or not. 

[seraaa]

4 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I have a question, and I'm not picking on you at all. And the question is for probably everyone at FJ:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

I honestly think it depends on the relationship and the circumstances. There are some cases where I'd say what the woman wants should absolutely take precedence - if the pregnancy would pose a significant health risk, or if the relationship were abusive, for example - but other than that, I don't know.

I'd say she doesn't have to have the baby, but Ideally both people would speak honestly about what they wanted in order to reach a decision that was acceptable to both, whatever that would look like.

Maybe the father agrees to take full responsibility for bringing up the kid. Maybe a couple agrees to terminate at this particular moment in time, but commits to a plan to have children in the future.

I do think that if you know that you and your long-term partner have different views about abortion that have a basis in morals or ethics, you should probably talk about it beforehand. 

Legally,  I think it should be the mother's sole right to choose, but in many scenarios it is appropriate that there would be input from the prospective father also.

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I have a question, and I'm not picking on you at all. And the question is for probably everyone at FJ:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

Like others have said, I think it very much depends on the circumstances. Ultimately, I do think the final decision should be made by the person who is pregnant though. That said:

- Ideally, the pregnant parent will be able to discuss the options with the non-pregnant parent. I think if they are/were involved in a healthy and loving relationship then the non-pregnant parent should at least be able to state their opinion and make their thoughts known. 

- If the parents weren’t involved in a healthy or loving relationship (for example, a one night stand), then I think the pregnant partner should think hard about whether to involve the non-pregnant parent in anyway. If they choose to that’s fine - if not that’s fine too.

- If their relationship was in anyway abusive or the pregnancy is the result of rape, then I absolutely do not think the non-pregnant parent should be involved at all. The opinion of the pregnant parent is the only one that matters in that case. 

Like @victoriaspongesaid, I wish there were easy answers that kept everyone happy and prevented anyone from being hurt. Unfortunately, that isn’t possible and when the two adults involved aren’t in agreement someone is going to get hurt. At the end of the day though people aren’t incubators and I don’t think any person should be forced to continue a pregnancy if they don’t want to. 

As for parental rights, that’s also a pretty grey area and, again, there are no easy answers. I don’t know nearly enough about the subject, so I’ll defer to people who do. 

[albireo]

9 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Say the woman who is pregnant decides to get an abortion, but the man who contributed the sperm doesn't want her to. Then what? Does she have to have the baby? Does the sperm contributor then take on full responsibility for the baby when it's born? Can the woman sever all ties (including financial) to the baby? I know this is a really gray area, but I'm curious.

I don't think I can speak to the issue of being able to give up parental rights, as I am no expert, but I did hear and agree with an interesting statement (can't find the source): abortion is an alternative to pregnancy, adoption is an alternative to parenting. Not exactly the situation here, but similar. So in this case the issue of abortion and the issue of severing parental ties would be separate IMO. One issue is about continuing the pregnancy, the other is about who will parent IF the pregnancy is continued.