At least 20 dead, 100 injured at shooting on Las Vegas Strip

[OtterRuletheWorld]

I saw this floating around my social media feeds. I wish I knew who the author is, because I'd really like to acknowledge them, but so far I haven't been able to find out.
I agree with this suggestion so much.
How about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion – mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he’s about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, an ultrasound up the ass (just because). Let’s close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gauntlet of people holding photo’s of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun.
It makes more sense to do this with young men and guns than with women and health care, right? I mean, no woman getting an abortion has killed a room full of people in seconds, right?

I understand the sentiment that access to abortions are not easy for all women and 100 percent agree that it is a huge issue. However, to be clear, I don't think we should treat anyone as a criminal that hasn't committed a crime And therefore, should not have to jump through hoops for legal activities. I am going back to "most people are good". I bet some of the victims owned firearms. I bet some of their friends and family own firearms. This may or may not change their opinion one way or another.

What I do see some of the anti-abortion folks saying in response to the above is that the woman IS killing a human. We aren't going to convince that person otherwise and that is the tricky thing about the abortion topic. I am very pro-choice, but, if you believe with your heart that a life starts at conception, you believe it is a life. That in of itself isn't an awful thing. It becomes more awful when laws are made based on that sentiment that negatively effect any woman seeking an abortion. I don't know what to say to that because I get pissed off when people kill certain animals for food. (Personally don't like it at all, but I find it less awful when people are hunting for their own meat.) I personally want to yell and scream and save all the animals. But I realize that makes me a crazy person. I get pissed when people litter our oceans and hurt our sealife...that one is a little easier because I can educate without offending. There is really no good reason to throw your trash on the beach or in the ocean.

My rant. Sorry.

I also really don't think the majority of gun owning men or any gun owners for that matter are bad people. I think we really need to get away from political attacks that attack the character of citizens. I get the sentiment, but I don't like the divisiveness we are constantly seeing. Most people are good people. At the very least, I don't feel like I am better than MOST people.

[louisa05]

I also really don't think the majority of gun owning men or any gun owners for that matter are bad people. .

Stephen Paddock was a gun owner. He took those guns to Vegas and shot over 500 people from a hotel room window.

But you would not say he was a bad person?

Are you serious?

[Rachel333]

5 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

 

Stephen Paddock was a gun owner. He took those guns to Vegas and shot over 500 people from a hotel room window.

But you would not say he was a bad person?

Are you serious?

 

To be fair, that's not at all what she said, and I would agree that the majority of gun owners are not bad people.

The problem, though, is that even a tiny minority can kill a whole lot of people if they have guns.

 

[fraurosena]

1 hour ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I understand the sentiment that access to abortions are not easy for all women and 100 percent agree that it is a huge issue. However, to be clear, I don't think we should treat anyone as a criminal that hasn't committed a crime And therefore, should not have to jump through hoops for legal activities. I am going back to "most people are good". I bet some of the victims owned firearms. I bet some of their friends and family own firearms. This may or may not change their opinion one way or another.

What I do see some of the anti-abortion folks saying in response to the above is that the woman IS killing a human. We aren't going to convince that person otherwise and that is the tricky thing about the abortion topic. I am very pro-choice, but, if you believe with your heart that a life starts at conception, you believe it is a life. That in of itself isn't an awful thing. It becomes more awful when laws are made based on that sentiment that negatively effect any woman seeking an abortion. I don't know what to say to that because I get pissed off when people kill certain animals for food. (Personally don't like it at all, but I find it less awful when people are hunting for their own meat.) I personally want to yell and scream and save all the animals. But I realize that makes me a crazy person. I get pissed when people litter our oceans and hurt our sealife...that one is a little easier because I can educate without offending. There is really no good reason to throw your trash on the beach or in the ocean.

My rant. Sorry.

I also really don't think the majority of gun owning men or any gun owners for that matter are bad people. I think we really need to get away from political attacks that attack the character of citizens. I get the sentiment, but I don't like the divisiveness we are constantly seeing. Most people are good people. At the very least, I don't feel like I am better than MOST people.

 

First off, let me say that I get where you're coming from about killing animals. I've been a vegetarian for years and since the beginning of this year I've gone that one step further by becoming a vegan. I'm also anti-death penalty, because I don't believe in killing people either.

Second, I would most certainly be the last person to say that anyone shooting guns is by definition a bad person, as I used to be club champion at our local shooting range in my younger years. I don't own any guns myself though. Not only because it's not that easy in my country, but mainly because I just don't see the point. 

Lastly, although I am of the very firm belief that life starts at conception, I am also very much pro-choice. My choice does not have to be yours, and vice versa, so to speak.

That said, I think you don't quite get the point my post is trying to make. It's not about abortion vs gun ownership (or gun owners being bad people). It is about the glaring difference in regulated control on these issues. Why is abortion so strictly regulated and is there such a lack of gun control regulations? If we believe that life is sacred, isn't it rather hypocritical to regulate the one, and not the other? Either strictly regulate both, or neither. 

That was the point of my post. 

 

[louisa05]

To be fair, that's not at all what she said, and I would agree that the majority of gun owners are not bad people.
The problem, though, is that even a tiny minority can kill a whole lot of people if they have guns.
 

The post is unclear and can easily be read as “I don’t think... any gun owners are bad people”. If the intended meaning was “or women” so be it, but that is not clear at all and I only inferred that as possible intent on a third read. So I’m still going to stand by my question until there is clarification.

[FundieFarmer]

14 hours ago, dairyfreelife said:

It should have been obvious we learn nothing and do nothing.

Should I have expected to go through that and have nothing happen? Should I have just shrugged my shoulders and not even hoped? 

I'll make note of that, thanks. I hope you, and no one else here, ever goes through this. My point will make more sense if it ever happens to your loved ones. 

[GrumpyGran]

On 10/3/2017 at 12:13 PM, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I am only bolding the above to ask you to clarify why you would want to punch them. I am curious.
 

Well, one in particular, who sat at my dining room table after I fed him dinner, proceeded to tell me I was un-American and a fool for supporting solar energy. He said all Americans should use coal and oil. He ended up screaming at me when I told him I disagreed. I can be certain that he will be there pontificating on how this is the fault of Hillary, Democrats and gun-control nuts. And he won't be alone.

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

 

The post is unclear and can easily be read as “I don’t think... any gun owners are bad people”. If the intended meaning was “or women” so be it, but that is not clear at all and I only inferred that as possible intent on a third read. So I’m still going to stand by my question until there is clarification.

 

I mean, okay, and I can see how the phrasing could have been misunderstood, but there was absolutely nothing else in her post that would give the impression that she thought no gun owners are bad people. It's one thing to point out that a particular wording could be unclear, but pretty extreme to accuse someone of thinking a mass murderer isn't a bad person just because of some poor wording.

I could be wrong, of course, but I would be extremely surprised if she genuinely meant to say that the man who just murdered 58 people is not a bad person!

Whatever it is, hopefully she'll clarify. 

[Khan]

I am fairly numb right now. Mr. Khan and I knew one of the victims who did not survive this act of terrorism. We haven't heard if other friends are alive or dead yet.   Every time this happens it slams home that none of us are safe and our government doesn't give a flying fuck about our lives. 

South Park and it's Rabble Rabble crowd of idiots is not meant to be reality tv! Eleventy!

[Rachel333]

I'm so sorry, @Khan.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I found out that a friend and her husband were in LV for their anniversary. They're okay, but I don't know if they were anywhere near all this or not.

The world is smaller than it used to be, in a way. People can travel more (not all of us, but some) and it's easier to keep in touch with old friends than it used to be. Even people who think that because a tragedy happened far from their home it doesn't really concern them, ought to be waking up and realizing that each one of these awful events could easily involve someone they care about or that next time, it could happen in their neighborhood!   

Sorry. I know a person who tends to shrug about this stuff because "it isn't like I know any of these people or anything." I understand feeling helpless and overwhelmed by these awful shootings happening so often, but that kind of apathy pisses me off.

[Rachel333]

There are some details now from the shooter's girlfriend. http://abcnews.go.com/US/vegas-shooters-girlfriend-marilou-danley-expected-violence-loved/story?id=50290677

She says she had no idea he was planning something violent and that she thought that he was going to break up with her.

[GreyhoundFan]

I'm so sorry, @Khan

[OtterRuletheWorld]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I mean, okay, and I can see how the phrasing could have been misunderstood, but there was absolutely nothing else in her post that would give the impression that she thought no gun owners are bad people. It's one thing to point out that a particular wording could be unclear, but pretty extreme to accuse someone of thinking a mass murderer isn't a bad person just because of some poor wording.

I could be wrong, of course, but I would be extremely surprised if she genuinely meant to say that the man who just murdered 58 people is not a bad person!

Whatever it is, hopefully she'll clarify. 

Eeeks. Here to clarify. Sorry if that wording was odd and I am happy most of you understood. The man who just murdered 58 people is absolutely a bad person. I believe he was an evil human. No questions asked. If this is in anyway unclear, I apologize.

I was stating that gun ownership does not equal evil human. Most people are good, including most gun owners. More simply put, let's not lump all gun owners, OR all gun owning men into the same box as Stephen Paddock.  Yes, Stephen Paddock taking this arsenal into Vegas and murdering people makes him a bad person, but it isn't that he owns guns, or took the guns into a hotel room in Vegas that make him bad (fucking weird to bring all of that up to your hotel though) What makes him bad is that he decided to murder as many people as he possibly could. 

I THINK STEPHEN PADDOCK IS A BAD PERSON.

I hope that clears things up.

50 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I found out that a friend and her husband were in LV for their anniversary. They're okay, but I don't know if they were anywhere near all this or not.

The world is smaller than it used to be, in a way. People can travel more (not all of us, but some) and it's easier to keep in touch with old friends than it used to be. Even people who think that because a tragedy happened far from their home it doesn't really concern them, ought to be waking up and realizing that each one of these awful events could easily involve someone they care about or that next time, it could happen in their neighborhood!   

Sorry. I know a person who tends to shrug about this stuff because "it isn't like I know any of these people or anything." I understand feeling helpless and overwhelmed by these awful shootings happening so often, but that kind of apathy pisses me off.

I live fairly close to Vegas. A short/cheap flight away and a lot of people we know and are friends with go on random weekends and sometimes last minute. I had a few friends who happened to be there this weekend. Their location to the scene varies. It is scary and it isn't the first attack in the past few years that I have had friends who were very close to the situation, I had traveled to or both. I can say I am hyper aware of my surroundings when I travel now. It takes the carefree part away from a lot of our travels and makes it much less fun. I feel grateful that I embraced traveling so much in my life. I am not planning to stop, but I am happy I was able to do so much in such a carefree way.
 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

3 hours ago, GrumpyGran said:

Well, one in particular, who sat at my dining room table after I fed him dinner, proceeded to tell me I was un-American and a fool for supporting solar energy. He said all Americans should use coal and oil. He ended up screaming at me when I told him I disagreed. I can be certain that he will be there pontificating on how this is the fault of Hillary, Democrats and gun-control nuts. And he won't be alone.

What a strange thing to get so angry about!!! I wonder why some people get so tightly wound about political issues.  That is when you need to bust out a silly board game and heated conversations. Or lay down the snark and question why he is so concerned about Hillary at this point in time.

[Maggie Mae]

4 hours ago, GrumpyGran said:

Well, one in particular, who sat at my dining room table after I fed him dinner, proceeded to tell me I was un-American and a fool for supporting solar energy. He said all Americans should use coal and oil. He ended up screaming at me when I told him I disagreed. I can be certain that he will be there pontificating on how this is the fault of Hillary, Democrats and gun-control nuts. And he won't be alone.

I don't think I would be very pleased in that situation.  I like to think, sitting here, calmly at my desk, that I would be very calm and change the subject, or tell him "no politics, please" while smiling and getting out a board game. But I'd probably just end up arguing and then getting everyone angry at me. 

BTW, don't most people use gas for heating in America? Or is that not energy? Also, isn't capitalism the American way? Wouldn't that mean that competition - solar, nuclear, whatever else - would be the American way? 

And Hillary lost so what does that have to do with anything? 

[OtterRuletheWorld]

1 minute ago, Maggie Mae said:

I don't think I would be very pleased in that situation.  I like to think, sitting here, calmly at my desk, that I would be very calm and change the subject, or tell him "no politics, please" while smiling and getting out a board game. But I'd probably just end up arguing and then getting everyone angry at me. 

BTW, don't most people use gas for heating in America? Or is that not energy? Also, isn't capitalism the American way? Wouldn't that mean that competition - solar, nuclear, whatever else - would be the American way? 

And Hillary lost so what does that have to do with anything? 

I really would be confused if someone started blaming Hillary for anything currently happening. What an odd thing.

My board game would probably not be busted out without a little snark added to the conversation. You know, "Well, with that, I guess we need to pull out a board game to help us behave." 

[Destiny]

I really would be confused if someone started blaming Hillary for anything currently happening. What an odd thing.

Hah. You really should hang out on Twitter. They managed to figure out a way to blame her for the cluster fuck in PR, and I’d bet money that I could find someone blaming her for Vegas too.

[Rachel333]

I talked to a woman this summer who said that Hillary is a Level 3 Black Widow Witch who has worked her way to the upper echelons of the group by murdering hundreds of people. This woman seemed totally normal before she started spouting those crazy conspiracy theories.

I was working at the time and was able to smile and nod through that.

I wouldn't be surprised if people are still blaming Hillary for stuff. A lot of people think every mass shooting is a liberal ploy to take away guns. The conspiracy theories happen with every big event like this, but it seems to be particularly true this time with the lack of information on the shooter's motives.

It probably would be less disturbing to believe that this is part of a controlled plan rather than that some guy was able to shoot hundreds of people in a few minutes just because he felt like it.

[Fascinated]

I do not recommend reading the festival instagram page.  There is a video taken by someone walking among the victims and actually touching their necks for a pulse.  It is unclear if it is a first responder or just some random creep.  

There is an upper body, including the head, photo of the murderer, post mortem.

And lots of posts from survivors.  Assuming that the majority of the nearly sixty people who died were probably not atheists, I wish these people would refrain from tagging the festival with their comments about god/angels protecting and saving them.  Maybe keep that on their own page so that the victims’ families and friends aren’t bombarded with the news that their loved ones were forsaken in their hour of need.

And, finally, we have the conspiracy theorists out in full force. 

The whole thing is quite disturbing.  Don’t go there. 

[Rachel333]

I'm watching the press conference. Points that I thought were interesting were that the Sheriff said they have seen evidence that the shooter planned to survive the event and that they think it's very likely that at some point he had some kind of help with the preparations.

[FundieFarmer]

I am fairly numb right now. Mr. Khan and I knew one of the victims who did not survive this act of terrorism. We haven't heard if other friends are alive or dead yet.   Every time this happens it slams home that none of us are safe and our government doesn't give a flying fuck about our lives. 
South Park and it's Rabble Rabble crowd of idiots is not meant to be reality tv! Eleventy!

I'm so sorry, khan. I have been there. Message me if you want to talk.

[Howl]

34 minutes ago, OtterRuletheWorld said:

I really would be confused if someone started blaming Hillary for anything currently happening. What an odd thing.

Emails!  Benghazi!  Lock her up! 

[Rachel333]

2 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

I do not recommend reading the festival instagram page.  There is a video taken by someone walking among the victims and actually touching their necks for a pulse.  It is unclear if it is a first responder or just some random creep. 

I saw some of that video, unfortunately. It's a guy whose mother is a nurse; he himself isn't any kind of medical professional. It did seem really voyeuristic to post that online.

[OtterRuletheWorld]

Emails!  Benghazi!  Lock her up! 

Ha, well, to be fair, at least those things are discussing issues that happened when she was SoS and doing something. Now, she is writing books..so they can't really she is at fault.

Hah. You really should hang out on Twitter. They managed to figure out a way to blame her for the cluster fuck in PR, and I’d bet money that I could find someone blaming her for Vegas too.

There are so many reasons my heart stays far away from twitter.

I'm watching the press conference. Points that I thought were interesting were that the Sheriff said they have seen evidence that the shooter planned to survive the event and that they think it's very likely that at some point he had some kind of help with the preparations.

The whole story is so strange. I am wondering how long it will take before we get answers.