Josh, Anna and the Ms 15: now with Mason

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

Here is my take on holiday greetings. 

That's all I have to say on the subject. 

 

[CorruptionInc.]

27 minutes ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

Meredith reminds me of Josie.

I saw a picture recently of Anna's little brothers (sorry I can't remember where). They were still dressed alike....... must not have saved enough money to support a wife yet if that's still happening.

I think their mum might do a lot of sewing? She may buy bulk fabric and make the one pattern in different sizes?

[marmalade]

Nah, they look like matching Walmart polo shirts. They'e always in polos, and still matching about 95% of the time. 

[patsymae]

I think Anna is just going to go on in life being a clone of her mom and mother-in-law.
There was a brief moment when I had some empathy and hope for her (but then I thought the same about the Dullards--denial is big for me apparently). When they lived in Washington she seemed to be getting some exposure to the outside world (yeah, it was for her husband's hate group, but still). She had fake "friends" for the camera, but she also seemed to have some cute modern clothes, found out what a public library is, and went to some nice restaurants where they had things other than chickenetti and some food was actually green. She also seemed actually involved with her kids. I was hoping that a little taste of life outside of Duggarville would spark something in her and she'd want more.

But I guess it was all just part of being a helpmeet to her douchbag husband, and I see her life as more of the same, popping out babies for Jesus and being endlessly forgiving. JBoob and Jchelle must be relieved they dodged a bullet with that one.

[LillyP]

13 hours ago, patsymae said:

I think Anna is just going to go on in life being a clone of her mom and mother-in-law.
There was a brief moment when I had some empathy and hope for her (but then I thought the same about the Dullards--denial is big for me apparently). When they lived in Washington she seemed to be getting some exposure to the outside world (yeah, it was for her husband's hate group, but still). She had fake "friends" for the camera, but she also seemed to have some cute modern clothes, found out what a public library is, and went to some nice restaurants where they had things other than chickenetti and some food was actually green. She also seemed actually involved with her kids. I was hoping that a little taste of life outside of Duggarville would spark something in her and she'd want more.

But I guess it was all just part of being a helpmeet to her douchbag husband, and I see her life as more of the same, popping out babies for Jesus and being endlessly forgiving. JBoob and Jchelle must be relieved they dodged a bullet with that one.

I think Anna would have continued to thrive had they stayed in DC. Unfortunately Josh screwed that up and it was back to duggarville they went. I know a lot of people seem to say "I had sympathy for Anna when it all came out but not now she decided to stay". Honestly, there's no choice in the matter. She was raised in a culture where you just don't leave. She has no choices, no job, and a bunch of kids to take care of. She's literally living the only way she's ever known with people surrounding her and telling her she can't leave.

I can speak from experience....the brainwashing runs DEEP. I went to a Southern Baptist college, although I was not particularly religious. I had a boyfriend who I had sex with, we traveled together, etc. I was there for the major and nothing more. While it was no Crown College, they certainly had rules about the opposite sex in the dorms, and also had a code of conduct that had to be followed. I had a car, came and went as I pleased, and drank with graduate students off campus. That being said I knew SO many girls who were living on campus who still followed their parents rules despite them being *states away*. My roommate wanted desperately to pierce her ears, keep in mind we're all 18+ year old college students. So one day I put her in the car and drive her to the store. Before walking in she called her mom and told her about it, to which her mom replied that she really wished she wouldn't do it. We left without her getting her ears pierced. I knew kids who abide by a curfew set by their parents despite the fact we all lived in a dorm and their parents were hours away. It's a strange strange culture that is hard to break free from.

[VelociRapture]

17 hours ago, patsymae said:

I think Anna is just going to go on in life being a clone of her mom and mother-in-law.
There was a brief moment when I had some empathy and hope for her (but then I thought the same about the Dullards--denial is big for me apparently). When they lived in Washington she seemed to be getting some exposure to the outside world (yeah, it was for her husband's hate group, but still). She had fake "friends" for the camera, but she also seemed to have some cute modern clothes, found out what a public library is, and went to some nice restaurants where they had things other than chickenetti and some food was actually green. She also seemed actually involved with her kids. I was hoping that a little taste of life outside of Duggarville would spark something in her and she'd want more.

But I guess it was all just part of being a helpmeet to her douchbag husband, and I see her life as more of the same, popping out babies for Jesus and being endlessly forgiving. JBoob and Jchelle must be relieved they dodged a bullet with that one.

I doubt they’re relieved. The “dodged bullet” only happened because their son was outed as a child molester, their daughters were outed as four of his victims, and they were outed as shit parents who concealed the abuse at the expense of their daughters’ safety. They lost their show, they lost some fans, and they lost their “shining” reputation as a golden family with golden children. 

Additionally, they may be happy that Anna didn’t stray from the fold, but Josh did and he did it in spectacular fashion - searching for affairs online. Yes, they “addressed” the issue by sending him to Prayhab, but I honestly think this is going to be a problem that winds up recurring unless Josh takes steps to change his situation - which I doubt he will since he’s a victim of the same cultish upbringing as Anna and he may be too lazy or frightened to take the necessary steps. 

[Shadoewolf]

My thought process sort of swung to Josh's beliefs. And how deeply entrenched they may be. Josh is smug but also a complete fake. Maybe being a mouthpiece for FRC was merely the least of 2 evils to get him and his family out of Arkansas. They've sent him to Jesus jail twice and he still falters. And I wonder if at some point he won't just throw his hands up, say screw it, throw off everything he's been taught and live a worldly life. And if he didn't divorce Anna, what would that mean for her? What in the world would she do if Josh one day said "that's it, God is good and all but enough of this. I love you but this Quiverful and IBLP thing is just shit and we're not doing it anymore." It's drilled into her brain to follow her headship so does she? Or is that the tipping point for her? 

We've speculated that Jeremy put on an act to get past JB's defenses and horrible it would be for Jinger if that were true. In that train of thought, imagine being married x number of years and your headship just drops that bomb that he no longer believes. Then what?

All hypothetical of course but a place my mind went to.

[KelseyAnn]

Okay, ready your pitchforks, but I think Anna is a victimizer just as much as she is a victim. 

As a parent, at some point she is obligated to do what is best for her kids and that would be leaving Josh and the cult. Would that be easy, no, of course not! Would it be impossible- no!

My Father chose to stay with my violent schizophrenic mother and by doing so, he victimized to a degree as well. As the non-abusing parent, he had the obligation to remove us and he didn't. At some parents need to prioritize their children over their own fears and apprehension because those kids can't take care of themselves. 

But, perhaps I am a bit jaded. 

[Fascinated]

59 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

Okay, ready your pitchforks, but I think Anna is a victimizer just as much as she is a victim. 

As a parent, at some point she is obligated to do what is best for her kids and that would be leaving Josh and the cult. Would that be easy, no, of course not! Would it be impossible- no!

My Father chose to stay with my violent schizophrenic mother and by doing so, he victimized to a degree as well. As the non-abusing parent, he had the obligation to remove us and he didn't. At some parents need to prioritize their children over their own fears and apprehension because those kids can't take care of themselves. 

But, perhaps I am a bit jaded. 

I understand where you are coming from here but I don’t know that I agree. I’ve said this before, but we really don’t have any knowledge of Anna’s feelings. I do agree that they should leave the cult, of course, but staying with Josh does not necessarily make Anna a victimizer. It’s what most of us would do but we aren’t Anna, and it isn’t our call to make. As much as we all think that Josh is an asshole, we have no knowledge of her thought process and it continues to bother me that we remove her agency with these comments. She might be a victimizer by staying, but she might not be. We don’t actually know. I know that’s an unpopular opinion but it is how I feel. Until or unless Anna tells us that she wanted to leave but couldn’t, or didn’t, I am not going to judge her for staying.  I’m going to assume that she has made, what is in her mind, the best decision for her and her children, until she says otherwise.  Even knowing how much Josh has fucked up, I cannot, in good conscience, state that it is apparent that he is violent or a true threat to their children. 

[Jenn The Heathen]

@KelseyAnn I agree with you.  My stepfather was abusive and my mom stayed with him for 19 years.  It took a lot for my sisters and I to work through our feelings of resentment towards her for not protecting us.

[KelseyAnn]

I just want to point out that I am in no way victim-blaming, Anna. She IS a victim, for sure. Just wanted to make that clear. 

[TheMustardCardigan]

2 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

As a parent, at some point she is obligated to do what is best for her kids and that would be leaving Josh and the cult. Would that be easy, no, of course not! Would it be impossible- no!

But does she know or really have the ability to realize that that would be the best thing? I don't really think so. It's not like Anna or any of these other people are sitting around with all the critical thinking skills that we have as adults outside of the cult, nor do they have anything presented to them ever except a super skewed world view. I doubt many of them ever think "I know this life is horrible for me and my kids, but leaving would be too hard so I won't." I think they legitimately believe that leaving is a horrible idea and that they think life in the cult is way better for their family's well being than life outside it.

I'm sure she was bombarded with plenty of blame for Josh's straying, and that most every figure she looks up to or that she sees as an authority warned her of the "dangers" of leaving her husband... Maybe telling her that kids suffer in a "broken home" and that they will become horrible secular heathens, that she'll never find love again, that her entire social circle will desert her, that life outside the cult is a horrible place for all kinds of reasons, that she won't be able to support her children financially, or even that her kids will be taken away from her. She's been brainwashed her whole life and would believe all of this to be true. She's not going to suddenly grow the ability to think critically and objectively evaluate life outside the cult vs. life in it overnight. She can't actually see that leaving Josh and the cult is the best thing for the kids because her whole life has been based on the idea that the opposite is true.

[Eternalbluepearl]

7 hours ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

She's not going to suddenly grow the ability to think critically and objectively evaluate life outside the cult vs. life in it overnight. 

I also think Anna might be afraid to lose the support of her in-laws. That's a lot of people that help her with childcare, they possibly help her with homeschooling, and they help her have housing and income. Not to mention that the older Duggar daughters have been like sisters with her since she was 20. It would be hard for Anna to lose those close relationships. Not that divorced people don't still see or have friendships with ex-in-laws if they want to but in their cult I don't know how divorce works.

[Lurky]

Wait, where's the idea Josh is abusive to his children coming from?  Or to Anna?  Cheating on a spouse is not usually counted as "abuse", so is there more I've missed?

Or is the idea that Anna is victimizing her children (I don't think we have that word in the UK) because she's not leaving the Fundy lifestyle? 

I don't understand why people think Anna would leave.  She was 19 when she married, with no education or experience of life outside a very Fundy home where she was bred to be a Quiverfull helpmeet.  I imagine in her world, Josh has sinned but begged for forgiveness, and Jesus has forgiven him, so what reasons would she even have to leave?  

[HOTW]

Meredith looks a LOT like Jordyn. 

[SilverBeach]

Fear is no excuse for not doing the right thing.

Anna had at least one sibling outside the borg who encouraged her to leave Josh and offered to support her in doing so. She was not totally in an echo chamber after the scandals hit.

I hate infantilizing adults that are damn near thirty years old, who have lived in metropolitan cities (Anna in DC) ,and traveled the world (the other Duggars). At some point, they buy in to the cult crap and bear responsibility for propagating it. 

For whatever reasons, Anna is choosing the status quo and she is not being held against her will.

[singsingsing]

I feel like I have to push back a bit on this idea that Anna is victimizing her children by refusing to leave Josh. Why is it so certain that leaving Josh would be the best thing for her and her kids?

-We have no reason to believe that Josh is a threat to his kids. We have no reason to believe that he is abusing or neglecting them. We have no reason to believe that he's abusing Anna. For all we know, Anna still loves Josh dearly, and the kids have a great relationship with him.

-Countless people deal with infidelity in their marriages and choose to stay married. The fact that one or both spouses aren't perfect and screwed up doesn't mean that it's necessarily best for the kids to end the marriage if both spouses want to stay together and try to make it work.

-Anna's brother raging away on Facebook that she should dump Josh and take the kids and come and stay with him does not amount to a realistic offer of help. Frankly he never seemed like the most stable of dudes himself, and we have absolutely no idea what went on behind closed doors. It may be that even you and I would prefer staying with Josh over going to stay with Anna's brother. It may be that his 'real' offer was, 'Sure, come stay with me for two weeks, then you can find your own apartment.'

-For Anna, leaving Josh would be tantamount to leaving her religion and her entire community. Her closest relationships would be destroyed. Her entire support system would vanish. The same would be true for her children. She would put herself and her children in a precarious, or at least very uncomfortable, financial situation. Just materially speaking, she's far better off staying with Josh. Does that suck? Yes. Is it reality? Yes.

If the real argument is, "But Josh is a giant douchebag, he's a misogynistic tool, and of course Anna and the kids would be better off in the non-fundie world" then the argument isn't actually that Anna is victimizing her kids by staying married to Josh, it's that Anna is victimizing her kids by remaining a fundamentalist, and the same could be said for Jim Bob and Michelle, Jill and Derick, Jessa and Ben, and Joy and Austin. The solution in that case is not (necessarily) to divorce, but to leave fundamentalism.

[VelociRapture]

5 hours ago, Lurky said:

Wait, where's the idea Josh is abusive to his children coming from?  Or to Anna?  Cheating on a spouse is not usually counted as "abuse", so is there more I've missed?

Or is the idea that Anna is victimizing her children (I don't think we have that word in the UK) because she's not leaving the Fundy lifestyle? 

I don't understand why people think Anna would leave.  She was 19 when she married, with no education or experience of life outside a very Fundy home where she was bred to be a Quiverfull helpmeet.  I imagine in her world, Josh has sinned but begged for forgiveness, and Jesus has forgiven him, so what reasons would she even have to leave?  

I’m almost positive that @KelseyAnnwas referring to the Fundie lifestyle in general, not any possible threat Josh himself may pose. I could be wrong, but that was the sense I got. 

I sympathize with Anna because she absolutely is a victim and I’m not about to criticize her for staying in her marriage if he poses no threats to anyone, but I do think she holds some responsibility for the fact that her children are being raised in an oppressive and dangerous cult too. It doesn’t have to be an either/or situation - she could make choices to raise her children differently while remaining married to Josh.*

Many people have left abusive cults and upbringings and I have nothing but deep respect for them. I think it takes a very strong person to overcome the challenges associated with leaving, but I also think that not everyone is capable of doing so on the same timetable or at all.

*I do realize how complex this issue is and how impossible it is for me to understand fully as I have not lived this type of lifestyle or been abused - that’s why I’m trying to be very careful in how I word things. Hopefully I did a decent job of that and, if not, I sincerely apologize to anyone who may have been hurt or offended. There are many aspects that need to be considered - financial, emotional, spiritual, physical, psychological, etc. Not to mention how much would likely depend on Josh and his willingness to stay or leave IBLP. So Anna, and all these second geners, will continue to be both victim and enabler (I guess that’s the word?) to me personally. 

[SilverBeach]

To be clear, my earlier comment regarding Anna was not meant to say she should leave Josh because of his bullshit. She could leave Josh and stay in the cult. My comment was about staying in the cult with or without Josh. 

So many of us have had less than perfect childhoods, complete with sexual abuse. Yet we did not abuse our children. Being a victim is not an excuse for victimizing others. If it was, the prisons would have many fewer inmates.

This discussion has been had many times on FJ, when do adult fundies become accountable for perpetrating awful shit? 

I realize that some here have nothing but sympathy for the Duggars (excluding JB, Michelle, and Josh, of course). Although the Duggars were my gateway fundy family, I used to avoid their threads because of this. 

I have no sympathy (except for the sexual abuse) for any of the adults who support a hateful fucker like Trump while wanting to force their beliefs on everyone else. Who don't see their hypocrisy. Who don't care who they hurt who isn't like them. This goes for the Bateseses and all the other awful families on here.

My position may be unpopular, but that's OK. I'm a little more hardcore in my dislike, you won't see me squeeing about any aspect of their lives or hair or weddings or babies. I have no objection to squeeing by others, its the infantilization and excuse making for adults  I find annoying.

If the Duggars are frozen in their beliefs and actions because of their shitty upbringings, we can give up hope and stop talking about the dangers of fundamentalism. 

As always, to each her own and YMMV. 

 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I just read the Miseducation of Cameron Post and it instantly brought The Fabulous David Waller to mind.In the book gay kids are sent to a Christian treatment center and basically taught to "fake it till they make it" and practice acting all manly. David jumping into manly stuff whenever a camera is on him made me just wonder......  Did he go thru ALERT training? I've never bothered to look.  If you haven't read the book it goes well with many discussions here. Here's a link [if allowed--delete it if its not] to my review http://tinyurl.com/ybykwgq5

[NotQuiteMotY]

23 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

I just read the Miseducation of Cameron Post and it instantly brought The Fabulous David Waller to mind.In the book gay kids are sent to a Christian treatment center and basically taught to "fake it till they make it" and practice acting all manly. David jumping into manly stuff whenever a camera is on him made me just wonder......  Did he go thru ALERT training? I've never bothered to look.  If you haven't read the book it goes well with many discussions here. Here's a link [if allowed--delete it if its not] to my review http://tinyurl.com/ybykwgq5

The Miseducation of Cameron Post is a great book. 

...That's all I have to say, sorry, just wanted to confirm that.

[fluffernutter]

Something wasn't quite right in that family photo- I think I fixed it.

[KelseyAnn]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:25 AM, Lurky said:

Wait, where's the idea Josh is abusive to his children coming from?  Or to Anna?  Cheating on a spouse is not usually counted as "abuse", so is there more I've missed?

 

 

Spiritual abuse and emotional abuse are very real things. 

[Lurky]

7 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

Spiritual abuse and emotional abuse are very real things. 

Of course they are, but where's the evidence Josh is doing this?  Or more than everyone else in the QF families we discuss?  If it's being QF that's abusive, then it's weird to single Anna out as a "victimizer".

ETA There's an assumption from some posters that Anna is somehow in this against her will, but for all we know, Josh could want to move the family away from QF and towards more Conservative Christianity, but Anna wants to stay in the life.  (ETA I also believe people who say she should "just walk away" are seriously underestimating how easy that would be for an uneducated mother of 6 who would have no support from her parents over it.  They could hardly put her family up in the double wide, for example)

I am not a Josh-apologist, but we know even less about Josh and Anna than the rest of the adult Duggars - and what we know about the rest is through glimpses of heavily mediated social media and the highly edited and controlled TV show.

[justoneoftwo]

All evidence we have seen actually points to Anna being the more QF.  She is the one who is hinting at more kids all the time.