Real Life Fundie Encounters - Part 4

[adidas]

This is a great write-up about the Twelve Tribes, the cult I wrote about in one of my earlier posts on this thread. The cafe they talk about in Katoomba is the same one I posted about. 

They don’t sound dissimilar to the Bruderhof in some ways  

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/true-stories/an-eerie-night-inside-blue-mountains-sect-the-twelve-tribes/news-story/2071df35fee257d4d3a5f4ba2191d73a

[Blahblah]

@adidas I just read that on news.com.au and came here to see if we had a thread about them. Sounds like they are in a few other countries as well.

[adidas]

26 minutes ago, Blahblah said:

@adidas I just read that on news.com.au and came here to see if we had a thread about them. Sounds like they are in a few other countries as well.

I was glad to see it as a top story! James Weir has a great readership because of his reality show recaps, so hopefully a few more people will realise that Twelve Tribes isn’t about healthy food and nice coffee.

[Blahblah]

@adidas

I always read James Weir. He’s really funny. I was surprised to see him doing an article like this but he handed it well.

 

 

[FeministShrew]

My daughter told me about an uncomfortable incident that happened at her dad's recently. (My kids' dad is a self-proclaimed pastor of a church that meets in the single-wide trailer his deceased parents' lived in. The congregation consists of his wife, her two kids, her dad, & sometimes his niece. None of his four kids attend. He livestreams his "sermons" on Facebook every Sunday, but they are all the Sunday School lessons he taught over & over twenty years ago at the church we belonged to. They pulled her kids out of school a few years ago & homeschool with the ACE curriculum, but they also recently left their homeschool co-op and have become increasingly isolated.)
My daughter & daughter-in-law were sitting on the floor with my 2-month-old grandson, who was excited by a big stuffed animal. They were talking to him, daughter said the big stuffed bunny was his new girlfriend, & her 13 year old stepsister said "No, he can't have a girlfriend." Then DIL was saying things like "I won't be able to keep the girls away from you, you'll be a little ladies man," just the silly stuff you say when you're playing with a baby. Stepsister says "Actually, you can." They ignored her, & she said it again, & DIL said yeah, I heard you, but trying not to pursue it. Stepsister says "You gotta teach him about courtship and to wait on the Lord." Daughter said it was really awkward & they tried to change the subject, but stepsister says "I dreamed a boy asked Dad if he could marry me. I was so excited! I can't wait to see who God and Dad pick out for me." 

I'm not sure where all this came from, because courtship wasn't a thing at our old church, though they did believe both sons & daughters should live at home until they got married, though it was ok to work or go to community college or technical school. His wife worships the Duggars and Bates, and they talked about getting vasectomy & tubal reversals when they got married, though she was not religious and didn't go to church until they got together.  They've alienated one of his older daughters by refusing to meet her partner unless she brought him to a "church" service.  She refused , so now they refuse to speak to him or even acknowledge his existence. They pretend my daughter's partner doesn't exist, too.
I wish you could all watch his cringeworthy "sermon" videos, but I don't want to dox myself. 

 

[Briefly]

10 hours ago, FeministShrew said:

My daughter told me about an uncomfortable incident that happened at her dad's recently. (My kids' dad is a self-proclaimed pastor of a church that meets in the single-wide trailer his deceased parents' lived in. The congregation consists of his wife, her two kids, her dad, & sometimes his niece. None of his four kids attend. He livestreams his "sermons" on Facebook every Sunday, but they are all the Sunday School lessons he taught over & over twenty years ago at the church we belonged to. They pulled her kids out of school a few years ago & homeschool with the ACE curriculum, but they also recently left their homeschool co-op and have become increasingly isolated.)
My daughter & daughter-in-law were sitting on the floor with my 2-month-old grandson, who was excited by a big stuffed animal. They were talking to him, daughter said the big stuffed bunny was his new girlfriend, & her 13 year old stepsister said "No, he can't have a girlfriend." Then DIL was saying things like "I won't be able to keep the girls away from you, you'll be a little ladies man," just the silly stuff you say when you're playing with a baby. Stepsister says "Actually, you can." They ignored her, & she said it again, & DIL said yeah, I heard you, but trying not to pursue it. Stepsister says "You gotta teach him about courtship and to wait on the Lord." Daughter said it was really awkward & they tried to change the subject, but stepsister says "I dreamed a boy asked Dad if he could marry me. I was so excited! I can't wait to see who God and Dad pick out for me." 

I'm not sure where all this came from, because courtship wasn't a thing at our old church, though they did believe both sons & daughters should live at home until they got married, though it was ok to work or go to community college or technical school. His wife worships the Duggars and Bates, and they talked about getting vasectomy & tubal reversals when they got married, though she was not religious and didn't go to church until they got together.  They've alienated one of his older daughters by refusing to meet her partner unless she brought him to a "church" service.  She refused , so now they refuse to speak to him or even acknowledge his existence. They pretend my daughter's partner doesn't exist, too.
I wish you could all watch his cringeworthy "sermon" videos, but I don't want to dox myself. 

 

I seriously hope that her son and DIL don't live with his Dad or have frequent contact with them, and that they realize that is a very poisonous environment.  Both for them and for their baby.  I feel terribly sorry for the step-sister, if that's the world she's growing up in.

[FeministShrew]

@Briefly no, they have their own place about fifteen minutes away from my ex. (I should have clarified, it was my daughter & my daughter-in-law, my son's wife.)  My son has very little contact with his dad; in fact his dad didn't know where he lived for almost a year, and when he found out my son said "Now we have to move," only half joking. He doesn't answer when his dad calls or texts. Both my kids are very aware of how toxic their dad & his wife are, thankfully. (They found out for themselves, I never badmouthed him or kept them from visiting him.) My son chooses to limit contact, and doesn't want them around his own son. Daughter-in-law is trying to be nice & keep the peace, but she sees through them. My daughter loves her dad & tries to maintain a relationship, at the same time setting boundries. 
But yeah, step-sister and 16 year old step-brother are growing up in that mess; their bio-dad signed away his parental rights in exchange for forgiveness of back child support, & my ex legally adopted them.
I'm just thankful I left him when I did, before the ultra-crazy religious delusion started. He was always a really devout evangelical, but he was more normal when we were together, if that makes sense.
 

[EowynW]

It's the weirdest feeling when your fundie mother brags about her new (college educated) daughter in law working and saving thousands for their house down payment so they can get a leg up and established faster, when you, her own daughter, weren't even allowed to or had suppprt for college, working full time jobs, and building credit, etc. 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Weird feeling = anger, sadness, disgust at the hypocrisy, etc?? 

Have you asked her why it is A-OK peachy keen fabulous wonderful for her DIL but was forbidden/ actively discouraged for you?

Obviously your DIL wasn't completely a SAHD because she went to college and has a job.  Why does your mother/ family think that is wonderful for her, but not for you?

@EowynW Not trying to open wounds or start anything, but not being fundie I'm frequently baffled by the inconsistencies in thinking and sometimes by the absolute hypocrisy.

[EowynW]

1 hour ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Weird feeling = anger, sadness, disgust at the hypocrisy, etc?? 

Have you asked her why it is A-OK peachy keen fabulous wonderful for her DIL but was forbidden/ actively discouraged for you?

Obviously your DIL wasn't completely a SAHD because she went to college and has a job.  Why does your mother/ family think that is wonderful for her, but not for you?

@EowynW Not trying to open wounds or start anything, but not being fundie I'm frequently baffled by the inconsistencies in thinking and sometimes by the absolute hypocrisy.

I have no idea. It's very confusing to me to. There's a lot of sadness about it with a bit of anger and WTF. But I'm learning to laugh at the hypocrisy too.  We had no path or support for higher education or any of that. And everything in our culture, church, the books and magazines we were given to read preached the same thing. If my parents didn't really believe in that stuff, they still did a fine job of immeshing us in it. Just so confused. 

[neurogirl]

@EowynW I'm just a casual reader of this thread but I'm sorry about your mother's hypocrisy. As we say a lot in my home, "all your thoughts and feeling are valid."

On a less related note, do you have any stories from your brother's wedding that you would be willing to share? I wondering what the bride wore and how her mother behaved during the day?

[Lisafer]

On 6/9/2018 at 12:49 PM, EowynW said:

I have no idea. It's very confusing to me to. There's a lot of sadness about it with a bit of anger and WTF. But I'm learning to laugh at the hypocrisy too.  We had no path or support for higher education or any of that. And everything in our culture, church, the books and magazines we were given to read preached the same thing. If my parents didn't really believe in that stuff, they still did a fine job of immeshing us in it. Just so confused. 

I kinda get where you're coming from with this. A few times my mother has basically said, "Well, that's not what I taught you/I don't know where you got that idea" when the subject being discussed was in our books, sermon tapes, and everything else and had not been criticized or pointed out as inaccurate. It leaves me with a very WTF feeling. I think she gaslights without even knowing she's doing it, if that makes sense.

[EowynW]

I owe a crazy prewedding story. Will post tomorrow. 

In the meantime my fundie BIL is saying on FB that the reason so many Americans live paycheck to paycheck is that they don't save, have poor spending habits, pets, two cars, etc & then goes onto to brag about their "health insurance" which is just a cousin of Scamaritan, their bought house, their retirement, their life insurance, car almost payed off, etc etc all on his one very decent income. Hah, they have pets too.  My fundie cousin also chimed in to the brag fest too  

It stings because in his eyes, we are "those people. we live paycheck to paycheck and do not have poor spending habits, excessive credit card debts, payments on either of our two cars, and still struggle to save a lot each week. We are super proud of being able to put a little bit back tho. We have 2 dogs and a cat but we've owned all practically since birth (range is 1 year to 12 years) and we would never get rid of them. We are careful with money. Right now there just isn't a lot of it to go around. 

[refugee]

On 6/10/2018 at 11:30 AM, Lisafer said:

I kinda get where you're coming from with this. A few times my mother has basically said, "Well, that's not what I taught you/I don't know where you got that idea" when the subject being discussed was in our books, sermon tapes, and everything else and had not been criticized or pointed out as inaccurate. It leaves me with a very WTF feeling. I think she gaslights without even knowing she's doing it, if that makes sense.

This was good to read, @Lisafer, not because it makes me happy but because I can relate. I have had conversations with my kids about stuff they perceived that I never thought I was teaching them. But it was in the sermons, the things other families said, some of the books we bought (I did not purge our bookshelves like our more extreme acquaintances because I believed in reading and discussing different perspectives). We didn’t read Harry Potter, for example, when our kids were preteens because I had read the first four (all that were out) and found them growing progressively darker. I thought they should wait until they were teens to read that series; they saw it as me agreeing with other families we knew that the books were evil because of so-called witchcraft. I did not discuss things with them like I should have. I lived a lot inside my head.

This occasionally comes up in our conversations, and I always apologize to them and want to kick myself for my stupidity, for raising them in that toxic community and thinking it was keeping them safer than my parents kept me. It is so shattering to me to realize how much more they were impacted than I was willing to realize or admit at the time.

Thankfully, they say they forgive me. They have so much compassion. I am humbled by their wisdom and strength.

I hope someday your mom can have an honest conversation with you. 

[Lisafer]

@refugee. Thank you. I don't have a lot of hope for my mom to acknowledge some of these issues, but maybe she'll surprise me. She literally doesn't remember a lot of stuff she did and said, as if she's blocked it out somehow. 

[refugee]

14 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

@refugee. Thank you. I don't have a lot of hope for my mom to acknowledge some of these issues, but maybe she'll surprise me. She literally doesn't remember a lot of stuff she did and said, as if she's blocked it out somehow. 

I don’t remember some stuff, but I believe my kids when they tell me stuff and tell them so. I understand your frustration, though, as I get a lot of what feels like gaslighting from my spouse. He says he never supported patriarchy, for example. He seems to rewrite history. It’s like he can’t stand having bought into and invested in a lie for so many years. It feels like inadvertent gaslighting, like he doesn’t realize it’s happening.

Can someone gaslight because they can’t bear the person they used to be in a patriarchal culture? Because they can’t bear to admit the mistakes they made?

I’d think I was crazy if my kids didn’t mention many of the same things I remember.

He’s not abusive in his interactions with our kids and me nowadays. The kids even get along with him now that he’s no longer in authority and recognizes they are adults and have the right to make their own decisions... even mistakes. (Believe me, that’s a change.) He just cannot seem to face the past. 

[Lisafer]

3 minutes ago, refugee said:

I don’t remember some stuff, but I believe my kids when they tell me stuff. I understand your frustration, though, as I get a lot of what feels like gaslighting from my spouse. He says he never supported patriarchy, for example. He seems to rewrite history. It’s like he can’t stand having bought into and invested in a lie for so many years. It feels like inadvertent gaslighting, like he doesn’t realize it’s happening.

Can someone gaslight because they can’t bear the person they used to be in a patriarchal culture? Because they can’t bear to admit the mistakes they made?

I’d think I was crazy if my kids didn’t mention many of the same things I remember.

He’s not abusive in his interactions with our kids and me nowadays. The kids even get along with him now that he’s no longer in authority and recognizes they are adults and have the right to make their own decisions... even mistakes. (Believe me, that’s a change.) He just cannot seem to face the past. 

So interesting! Maybe it's a case of gaslighting others while gaslighting themselves at the same time. My mom is still very fundie and wouldn't deny a lot of things that she DID teach us, although she denies some. But she can't remember the hurtful things she did and said when she was angry, and her impulse is usually to deny those instantly if they are brought up. It makes me physically dizzy and upset when I say, "You said such-and-so," (remembering very clearly), and she says, "I did not. I never said that." It's horrible. 

You sound like a good mom. You really do. After all, we all make mistakes, and if you're apologizing and trying to do better, that means a lot. 

Somebody's freakin' cutting onions in here...

[EowynW]

"Somebody's freakin' cutting onions in here..."

same here. 

My parents are similar and I don't see much hope in them ever recognizing or apologizing either. They just can't quite grasp it. 

[Daisy0322]

There seems to be more and more funnies cropping up in my area... tonight at steak and shake there was a family that mom had the trademark long jean skirt with a button up blouse, dad and the boys all had matching khakis and polos on and the girls had different dresses on but had jeans underneath them, EVEN THE 4 month old little girl! (Approx age). The kids all ordered thier food (7 kids and the oldest looked maybe 8 or 9) and the parents gave them all what looked like a printed out bible theamed coloring page. Then THEY SAT IN SILENCE, it was kind of creepy, especially because they all smiled non-stop.  Not even the parents hardly said a word, the baby made a little noise which they didn't seem to pay attention to. When the food came they all ate neatly even the younger ones for the most part. Then when they left the lined up in order and walked out. It was strange and definitely seemed fundie like to me.

[Briefly]

1 hour ago, Daisy0322 said:

There seems to be more and more funnies cropping up in my area... tonight at steak and shake there was a family that mom had the trademark long jean skirt with a button up blouse, dad and the boys all had matching khakis and polos on and the girls had different dresses on but had jeans underneath them, EVEN THE 4 month old little girl! (Approx age). The kids all ordered thier food (7 kids and the oldest looked maybe 8 or 9) and the parents gave them all what looked like a printed out bible theamed coloring page. Then THEY SAT IN SILENCE, it was kind of creepy, especially because they all smiled non-stop.  Not even the parents hardly said a word, the baby made a little noise which they didn't seem to pay attention to. When the food came they all ate neatly even the younger ones for the most part. Then when they left the lined up in order and walked out. It was strange and definitely seemed fundie like to me.

Sounds kind of Stepford Wife (or Stepford family) to me.  It's one thing to teach the children to behave when they are out someplace, but this sounds programmed.  Kids talk, they make noise, they aren't perfectly still.  That's normal for them.  I would have been very creeped out.

[Daisy0322]

3 hours ago, Briefly said:

Sounds kind of Stepford Wife (or Stepford family) to me.  It's one thing to teach the children to behave when they are out someplace, but this sounds programmed.  Kids talk, they make noise, they aren't perfectly still.  That's normal for them.  I would have been very creeped out.

Yeah it was definitely the strangest encounter I've had. My parents neighbors are fundie lote but nothing like that.

[smittykins]

It reminds me of a coworker I once had at Burger King who brought her twin boys(who were about 3)in for dinner after her shift.  They sat on their booster seats and ate their food without a peep, like perfect little robots.  It gave me the creeps.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I was at the state homeschool convention, so I saw quite a few of the families we chat about. The Rodrigues clan was there in their big van. Does anyone know what the oldest daughter is doing? I know she graduated last year, but I'm pretty sure I saw here there with the rest of the family in the exhibit hall.  Our state conference is huge so it can be hard to tell for sure.

I actually got to chat with JT Phillips. In person, I'd say that long hair isn't his best look, but he seemed like a pleasant enough guy to talk to. Having heard both father and son speak, I'd say the son comes across as way more genuine. Maybe he's just a good salesperson, but he did come across as a much nicer person and he appears quieter/more thoughtful than what I have seen of his father. On a more shallow note, he's definitely as cute as his pictures suggest. Even though he's married and very obviously wearing his ring, there were lots of teenage girls slowing down to gaze at him in his booth.

Interestingly to me, I could have sworn I saw Bill Potter walking through the convention several times.  Landmark Events wasn't an exhibitor and I didn't see him listed as a speaker, but I'm pretty sure it was him that I saw. Hmmm...

[AliceInFundyland]

1 hour ago, GenerationCedarchip said:

I was at the state homeschool convention, so I saw quite a few of the families we chat about. The Rodrigues clan was there in their big van. Does anyone know what the oldest daughter is doing? I know she graduated last year, but I'm pretty sure I saw here there with the rest of the family in the exhibit hall.  Our state conference is huge so it can be hard to tell for sure.

I actually got to chat with JT Phillips. In person, I'd say that long hair isn't his best look, but he seemed like a pleasant enough guy to talk to. Having heard both father and son speak, I'd say the son comes across as way more genuine. Maybe he's just a good salesperson, but he did come across as a much nicer person and he appears quieter/more thoughtful than what I have seen of his father. On a more shallow note, he's definitely as cute as his pictures suggest. Even though he's married and very obviously wearing his ring, there were lots of teenage girls slowing down to gaze at him in his booth.

Interestingly to me, I could have sworn I saw Bill Potter walking through the convention several times.  Landmark Events wasn't an exhibitor and I didn't see him listed as a speaker, but I'm pretty sure it was him that I saw. Hmmm...

How recently was the convention? You should check out the JRod thread. They’ve had quite a week.

[GenerationCedarchip]

21 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

How recently was the convention? You should check out the JRod thread. They’ve had quite a week.

Wowzers. I don't usually follow the JRod crew all that closely, but it sounds like they have been up to quite a bit. The convention was a couple weeks ago, so pre-car begging.