Stockdale family murders

[TatiFish9]

5 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

And your point is?

 

You pretty much saw my point, because you addressed it.

There's a lot of double standards going on here and that is okay. Double standards make the world go 'round. How boring would life be if we held everyone to the same marker. 

People who trigger our anger get little to no recourse. People who evoke our sympathy receive understanding. We all do it.

Thank you to everyone who responded. Your comments helped to see the other perspective clearer. I was absolutely appalled when I read this story.

 

[BirdgirlH]

I don't see this as double standards, at all. This is a forum that discusses the dangers of religious fundamentalism, of isolating families from the world, so of course in a case like this that is what is being discussed. 

I absolutely disagree that looking at factors that led to this tragedy is an emotionally triggered double standard. It is the opposite because no shooting is the same as any other shooting and people should, in fact, look at causes and backgrounds. Otherwise you wouldn't need trials, lawyers and basically the whole judicial system, and everyone would receive the exact same punishment for the exact same crime without looking at causes and background (and I certainly don't agree with that!).

[Jug Band Baby]

1 hour ago, amendgitan said:

In fact, much like Andrea Yates who was literally driven insane by the dictates of her Quiverful culture that demanded she continue having as many "blessings" as the lord provided, despite clear advice from her doctors that her post-partum depression would worsen, and then her post-partum psychosis would worsen, and she would be a danger to herself and others with additional pregnancies, I believe the culture within which this young man was raised should act as a mitigating factor. 

I still can't believe Randy wasn't ever charged with anything.  He was warned his wife was unstable, but kept pushing her and pushing her.  What he did should have been manslaughter at least.

3 hours ago, amendgitan said:

But his act of molesting young girls was an expression of his embracing of the patriarchy. It wasn't the result of psychosis or a mental breakdown that caused him to snap in rage or despair. And we know this because he planned, acted in secrecy, confessed when confronted but reoffended, then confessed again and showed he knew it was wrong. 

 I think that is overlooked a lot by people saying he knew no better.  If he didn't, he wouldn't have planned out his attacks to try to not get caught.  This makes me empathize less for him.

[Jug Band Baby]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

There's a lot of double standards going on here and that is okay. Double standards make the world go 'round. How boring would life be if we held everyone to the same marker. 

Explain to us how the DIFFERENT circumstances involved in DIFFERENT situations cause a double-standard.

Let's say I shoot a man and kill him.  Say I did it because I didn't like his face.

Let's say you shoot a man and hilled him.  Say you did it because he had a gun held against the head of a child.

Would you be a murderer the same as I am?  Or do the DIFFERENT circumstances involved in DIFFERENT situations matter?  According to you, either I am just as innocent as you are, or you are just as much a guilty murderer, because we both shot and killed people.

If you think that's different now that you're involved in a set os scenarios, then you're being a hypocrite.

[TatiFish9]

It is a double standard. No one knows if this guy shot his mother and brother because of his isolated lifestyle. It could have been over money or a bad day. Yet there was immediately reconciling of the behavior.

I will not defend Josh just to prove a point. I will say that his early childhood environment could just as well create sociopathic or deviant behavior. If it is the lifestyle of the parents that cause us to sympathize then we should do so for all those who suffer under these unhealthy subcultures that thrive off of group think and control.

Different personalities are susceptible to varying stimuli. It is clear that Josh did not want the fundie lifestyle but was too weak to leave it even as an adult. Why was he weak? The rigid controlling of his parents never allowed him the full consequences and rehabilitation that would have allowed him to enter society as a healthier man. Little to no sympathy there. Only hate. No understanding. Just hate. The same hate that these kind of families are criticized for themselves.

With that said, I am generalizing my counterpoint. I am not saying everyone who has responded here see it this way.

Also, I welcome the down votes you all have for me. One thing that I notice is that any dissenting voice is met with subjugation. It is disappointing to see that we on this side of the fence are no different than the groups we heavily criticize. Different philosophies, but same human behavior that insist we crush opposing viewpoints. Group dynamics 101, I suppose.

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

There's a lot of double standards going on here and that is okay. Double standards make the world go 'round. How boring would life be if we held everyone to the same marker. 

Double standards? Concern trolling is more like it.

 

 

 

[TatiFish9]

Now with the name calling...

Another form of CONTROLLING someone's point of view. Now the definition of troll is someone who does not agree with your double standard? I do not think so. 

 

[BirdgirlH]

14 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

 

Also, I welcome the down votes you all have for me. One thing that I notice is that any dissenting voice is met with subjugation. It is disappointing to see that we on this side of the fence are no different than the groups we heavily criticize. Different philosophies, but same human behavior that insist we crush opposing viewpoints. Group dynamics 101, I suppose.

Interesting you should say that. I just had a look at your other posts where you expressed different opinions to most others here. All upvoted! So why the downvotes for that other post, what could be the problem? Could it be that your other posts made sense and people applaud logic and a solid argument? And that they don't like arguments that don't make sense and come across as a bit condescending, frankly? Some people express their disagreement with downvotes, others choose to respond in writing. And everyone is entitled to their opinion and shouldn't have other explain downvotes.

I think one problem is that you don't seem to grasp the concept of double standards. Were it possible to replicate the family's exact living situation from birth of their kids down to the last spoonful of cod liver oil - shudder - and you would look at Jacob A with sympathy, but no real sympathy for jacob B because, to borrow an example from above, you didn't like his face - THAT would be double standard. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.

23 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Now with the name calling...

 

You can't really call it name calling when literally no name was called. Trolling is an activity.

[nickelodeon]

you, in a thread about fundamentalists literally murdering their own families: i got 5 downvotes, fj is no different from fundamentalists >:(

[BirdgirlH]

Also, I haven't downvoted any of your posts, TatiFish9, but I have to say there has been a drop in quality, starting with this page. You literally went from wondering why there was sympathy for Jacob (which is a valid question and has been answered in different ways by different posters) to saying there was "immediately reconciling of the behaviour" even though we can't be sure what triggered it (potential causes and reasons are literally what we are discussing) and telling people who didn't agree with you that their arguments were emotionally triggered and double standard.

[amendgitan]

45 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

 It is a double standard. No one knows if this guy shot his mother and brother because of his isolated lifestyle. It could have been over money or a bad day. Yet there was immediately reconciling of the behavior.

I will not defend Josh just to prove a point. I will say that his early childhood environment could just as well create sociopathic or deviant behavior. If it is the lifestyle of the parents that cause us to sympathize then we should do so for all those who suffer under these unhealthy subcultures that thrive off of group think and control.

 It is clear that Josh did not want the fundie lifestyle but was too weak to leave it even as an adult.

Little to no sympathy there. Only hate. No understanding. Just hate. The same hate that these kind of families are criticized for themselves.

Also, I welcome the down votes you all have for me. One thing that I notice is that any dissenting voice is met with subjugation. It is disappointing to see that we on this side of the fence are no different than the groups we heavily criticize. Different philosophies, but same human behavior that insist we crush opposing viewpoints. Group dynamics 101, I suppose.

The down voting isn't about "group dynamics" or an attempt to subjugate a dissenting opinion.  It's due to a smug arrogance of the opinion that those who sympathize and immediately suspect the lifestyle is related to the murders/suicide attempt, are illogical and hypocritically employing a double standard. 

That's what the Down votes are for. 

There was and is no evidence that Josh Duggar was insane. But there might be here.  

Many of us either have firsthand experience or have studied extreme fundies for years and are well aware of the abuse and violence and annihilation of identity that occurs among such groups and families. It is not unreasonable to look at the extreme control and domination presented by the suffocating mother here, and suspect a connection. And suspect a mental breakdown.  That's just based on years of looking at families like these and at young people who kill their families. 

The fact is that all forms of violence including domestic violence and abuse, are high in religious patriarchies. That's reality. And we have a window into this particular, disturbing family. 

Many of us are fearfully waiting for the day when one of the Arndt boys commits mass murders of one of the Maxwell sisters kills herself. Due to the intense control and isolation.  It's not normal and it can cause people to lose it. 

And there is a difference, as the law demonstrates, between someone who makes a conscious decision to commit a crime with the knowledge that they are doing just that, and someone who commits a crime while in the throes of a mental breakdown. 

I don't believe it's illogical to assume the latter in this instance, even without knowing more. 

Further, the crimes of Josh Duggar were a reification of the constructs of the ultra right-wing Christian patriarchy he was raised in- children can be used and abused, women and girls are the property of men, females are less than, females are sexual objects. It's always the female's fault. So unlike you, I don't think it's clear at all that he didn't want the fundie lifestyle. He's acting like many men do within that culture. He just got caught. 

But the crimes of Jacob, in killing his own mother and his brother, are not part of the patriarchy narrative. Instead, at least when it comes to his domineering and inflexible mother, his crimes appear o be a scream of rage and anguish against the system that controlled him. 

No, it's not your dissenting opinion that's the problem. It's the arrogance of it when considering the opposing view. It's the condescending scolding of  those who quickly see a possible connection between the young man's oppression and his crimes and view that oppression as a mitigator of those crimes, accusing us of a knee-jerk and irrational herd mentality. I for one don't appreciate that. Especially as I pride myself on my sense of logic, fair play and ability to set aside my biases in order to consider and analyze all sides of a subject. 

[Snarkle Motion]

44 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

It is a double standard. No one knows if this guy shot his mother and brother because of his isolated lifestyle. It could have been over money or a bad day. Yet there was immediately reconciling of the behavior.

I will not defend Josh just to prove a point. I will say that his early childhood environment could just as well create sociopathic or deviant behavior. If it is the lifestyle of the parents that cause us to sympathize then we should do so for all those who suffer under these unhealthy subcultures that thrive off of group think and control.

Different personalities are susceptible to varying stimuli. It is clear that Josh did not want the fundie lifestyle but was too weak to leave it even as an adult. Why was he weak? The rigid controlling of his parents never allowed him the full consequences and rehabilitation that would have allowed him to enter society as a healthier man. Little to no sympathy there. Only hate. No understanding. Just hate. The same hate that these kind of families are criticized for themselves.

With that said, I am generalizing my counterpoint. I am not saying everyone who has responded here see it this way.

Also, I welcome the down votes you all have for me. One thing that I notice is that any dissenting voice is met with subjugation. It is disappointing to see that we on this side of the fence are no different than the groups we heavily criticize. Different philosophies, but same human behavior that insist we crush opposing viewpoints. Group dynamics 101, I suppose.

Down votes are hardly subjugation.  They are a form of disagreement but hardly "crushing opposing viewpoints." 

I do feel sorry for what Josh experienced as a child. He didn't get the help he needed and his environment contributed to his actions. Adult Josh has failed to take accountability or responsibility but I still feel empathy for him as a human who has suffered under a terrible environment. 

I think the difference is that in this case, although the outcome resulted in death, it was likely a highly impulsive act from someone who had few resources for support. Does not excuse his actions but I think this is the difference between someone who shoots and kills a spouse who has been historically abusive and repeat sex offender. Both are crimes, but one involves a single act after history of abuse versus planning and repeating "lesser" offenses with premeditation. 

[hoipolloi]

20 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

No, it's not your dissenting opinion that's the problem. It's the arrogance of it when considering the opposing view. It's the condescending scolding of  those who quickly see a possible connection between the young man's oppression and his crimes and view that oppression as a mitigator of those crimes, accusing us of a knee-jerk and irrational herd mentality.

Exactly. As @BirdgirlH pointed out, your initial, valid question about Jacob was answered thoughtfully by a number of folks here. 

Rather than debating the points raised in those comments, you then tried to invalidate all dissenting responses by saying they represented a double standard and were therefore hypocritical. IMO, it appears that you're more interested in derailing this discussion than contributing to it, hence the use of the term concern trolling.

 

[TatiFish9]

37 minutes ago, BirdgirlH said:

1a.And everyone is entitled to their opinion and b.shouldn't have other explain downvotes

2.You can't really call it name calling when literally no name was called. Trolling is an activity.

1b. I didn't say anything about people explaining down votes. a. And with that right, I have give my opinion on the down votes. 

2. Trolling is an activity I am not participating in. Hurling the concept at me for one opposing comment is name calling. I understand exactly what is going on.

 

 

[Howl]

Googled a bit and read an article about teens who murder their parents.  For almost all of the kids who were not considered sociopaths, there were multiple common factors.  The factors they had in common that could be relevant here were social isolation, a sense that there were simply no other options and emotional/physical/sexual abuse.  Granted, this kid was in his early 20s so no longer a teen, but the factors could apply.  A surprising number of the kids couldn't totally remember the murder, had not planned it out and apparently, just couldn't take it anymore.

I also hate fj'ers arguing* and down voting.  I don't think I've ever down voted someone and this is a good reminder to myself not to do so, no matter what. 

*not directed at anyone in particular; it makes me uncomfortable in general 

 

 

[TatiFish9]

32 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

The down voting isn't about "group dynamics" or an attempt to subjugate a dissenting opinion.  It's due to a smug arrogance of the opinion that those who sympathize and immediately suspect the lifestyle is related to the murders/suicide attempt, are illogical and hypocritically employing a double standard. 

That's what the Down votes are for. 

There was and is no evidence that Josh Duggar was insane. But there might be here.  

Many of us either have firsthand experience or have studied extreme fundies for years and are well aware of the abuse and violence and annihilation of identity that occurs among such groups and families. It is not unreasonable to look at the extreme control and domination presented by the suffocating mother here, and suspect a connection. And suspect a mental breakdown.  That's just based on years of looking at families like these and at young people who kill their families. 

The fact is that all forms of violence including domestic violence and abuse, are high in religious patriarchies. That's reality. And we have a window into this particular, disturbing family. 

Many of us are fearfully waiting for the day when one of the Arndt boys commits mass murders of one of the Maxwell sisters kills herself. Due to the intense control and isolation.  It's not normal and it can cause people to lose it. 

And there is a difference, as the law demonstrates, between someone who makes a conscious decision to commit a crime with the knowledge that they are doing just that, and someone who commits a crime while in the throes of a mental breakdown. 

I don't believe it's illogical to assume the latter in this instance, even without knowing more. 

Further, the crimes of Josh Duggar were a reification of the constructs of the ultra right-wing Christian patriarchy he was raised in- children can be used and abused, women and girls are the property of men, females are less than, females are sexual objects. It's always the female's fault. So unlike you, I don't think it's clear at all that he didn't want the fundie lifestyle. He's acting like many men do within that culture. He just got caught. 

But the crimes of Jacob, in killing his own mother and his brother, are not part of the patriarchy narrative. Instead, at least when it comes to his domineering and inflexible mother, his crimes appear o be a scream of rage and anguish against the system that controlled him. 

No, it's not your dissenting opinion that's the problem. It's the arrogance of it when considering the opposing view. It's the condescending scolding of  those who quickly see a possible connection between the young man's oppression and his crimes and view that oppression as a mitigator of those crimes, accusing us of a knee-jerk and irrational herd mentality. I for one don't appreciate that. Especially as I pride myself on my sense of logic, fair play and ability to set aside my biases in order to consider and analyze all sides of a subject. 

I for one do not appreciate your perception of my point of view as smug arrogance. I pride myself in looking at points fairly from an objective lens as well as admitting when I am apart of the problem which I did.

Here we are disagreeing with each other's approaches. What else is there to do but to continue to see it the way we do.

 

 

[BirdgirlH]

3 minutes ago, Howl said:

Googled a bit and read an article about teens who murder their parents.  For almost all of the kids who were not considered sociopaths, there were multiple common factors.  The factors they had in common that could be relevant here were social isolation, a sense that there were simply no other options and emotional/physical/sexual abuse.  Granted, this kid was in his early 20s so no longer a teen, but the factors could apply.  A surprising number of the kids couldn't totally remember the murder, had not planned it out and apparently, just couldn't take it anymore.

 

 

Interesting, do you have a link to that article (if that's allowed)? Certainly sounds like those factors played a role in this case. Particularly when you look at their Facebook history, or basically just the days/weeks beforehand. All just regular "we have a concert on Sunday, check us out". The wife of the fourth band member posted a caricature of the four, grinning broadly, which had been drawn the weekend before. All good on he surface level! I wonder what happened that made him snap

[TatiFish9]

2 minutes ago, Howl said:

Googled a bit and read an article about teens who murder their parents...

I also hate fj'ers arguing* and down voting.  I don't think I've ever down voted someone and this is a good reminder to myself not to do so, no matter what. 

*not directed at anyone in particular; it makes me uncomfortable in general 

 

 

I totally get what you're saying about the research. I think similar patterns same can be seen with people who murder their employers after fire or abusive spouses or even people who commit sexual crimes.

There is a strong occurrence of generational molestation in families. Often abusers were victims themselves. I can not say that is the case with Josh. I honestly do not think the public received the full details about the matter anyhow. 

In this thread, I was shocked that posters were having sympathy. Murder- (attempt) suicide is a coward's act just like sexual assault especially in regards to a child. This young man had three brothers who faced the same parenting. None of them shot their parents and siblings dead. I taken aback that people were not as harsh on this guy as they have been of other fundie criminals. Too each their own

Also, it is rare that I down vote. Maybe never. I noticed a pattern on this site that when a person boldly steps outside of the basic ideology of the site they're down votes. I don't mind a good debate, but arguing doesn't seem to really get anywhere. 

I do appreciate your response.

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

It is a double standard. No one knows if this guy shot his mother and brother because of his isolated lifestyle. It could have been over money or a bad day. Yet there was immediately reconciling of the behavior.

Also, I welcome the down votes you all have for me. One thing that I notice is that any dissenting voice is met with subjugation. It is disappointing to see that we on this side of the fence are no different than the groups we heavily criticize. Different philosophies, but same human behavior that insist we crush opposing viewpoints. Group dynamics 101, I suppose.

First I rarely downvote. Mostly only something I find offensive gets a downvote. And second I like to debate on occasion but I try to do it in a respectful way. I didn't agree with you so I wrote why I disagreed and tried to keep it respectful. There will be differing opinions here. I don't think people are trying to be cult like. I believe a couple people probably agree with you actually.

[VVV]

15 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

In this thread, I was shocked that posters were having sympathy. Murder- (attempt) suicide is a coward's act just like sexual assault especially in regards to a child. This young man had three brothers who faced the same parenting. None of them shot their parents and siblings dead.

 

Murder is a horrific act; that does not mean one can't feel sympathy for a perpetrator who perhaps saw no other way out of an intolerable situation. I couldn't even finish reading the family rules posted earlier because I was feeling increasingly upset and suffocated.

No two children in any multi-child family have exactly the same parenting. Parents react differently to children based on the children's personalities or perhaps on what else is going on in the parent's life at the time. Many parents treat sons differently from daughters (not relevant here). In dysfunctional families there is often a "golden child" and a scapegoat. It's possible as an earlier poster suggested that Jacob was the child the mother was trying to keep home forever. We may never know. But I can tell you, as the fourth of five children myself and the mother of three, that while siblings may receive similar parenting, even in the most consistent, healthy families siblings do not receive identical parenting nor do they necessarily respond to similar parenting in identical ways. And I think we can all agree that the Stockdales were very far from a healthy family.

[BirdgirlH]

6 minutes ago, VVV said:

while siblings may receive similar parenting, even in the most consistent, healthy families siblings do not receive identical parenting nor do they necessarily respond to similar parenting in identical ways. And I think we can all agree that the Stockdales were very far from a healthy family.

Totally agree. I do wonder how the older boys managed to escape the mother's/family's clutches and how they live their life now, and treat their children. 

[TatiFish9]

@VVV I understand what you mean.

I think we agree that no one really knows what happened in this case because we do not have all the details yet. I also understand that parental experience is different from child to child. However he also killed his brother. Again the brother could have bullied him. We do not know. But what if he didn't ...

If we understand why people kill out of impulse or conditioning then we should also understand why they commit other crimes. I know all crimes are not committed equal, but taking someone's life's is huge even when it's done within reason.  In this thread, I saw a lot of upbringing referencing that I do not see considered with other criminals. There are people with worse childhoods than this guy (from what we we know ) People survive severe physical,mental and/or sexual abuse, starvation and other forms of neglect etc. without killing their families. 

I think we make excuses for certain people and not others. I am not comfortable with that approach. 

 

[VVV]

1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

There are people with worse childhoods than this guy (from what we we know ) People survive severe physical,mental and/or sexual abuse, starvation and other forms of neglect etc. without killing their families.

Yes. People differ in their resilience and in their response to severe stress. And many people survive abuse who are not from fundamentalist backgrounds. This board exists for the discussion of religious fundamentalism and its damaging effects on people and on societies.

I haven't seen anyone trying to excuse the murders. Nobody is saying, I hope this guy recovers so he can walk free. What he did was horrific. But when an act is *so* unimaginable, such as killing a parent or sibling in cold blood, people tend to try to figure out what could drive another human being to do such a thing.  For less unimaginable acts, we don't necessarily feel so compelled to understand why.

[TatiFish9]

 

2 hours ago, VVV said:

 

But when an act is *so* unimaginable, such as killing a parent or sibling in cold blood, people tend to try to figure out what could drive another human being to do such a thing.  For less unimaginable acts, we don't necessarily feel so compelled to understand why.

We have a group of criminals who were raised under similar standards. We then decide that those who committed unimaginable acts are eligible for our consideration. Those who commit imaginable acts are available for our censure.

You have just admitted to a double standard. That is what I feel uncomfortable with in this particular case. 

I misunderstood the nature of this board. I thought it was open for people to comment on fundamentalism and related sub-cultures. I did not know that excluded commenting on approaches towards them or against them that make be faulty. 

I really do not want to tit for tat this topic. I realize my error now.

 

 

 

[BirdgirlH]

Check it out - bit unusual, the colour, but I sorta like it!