Joy and Austin: dating with a purpose .... or something (part 4)

[feministxtian]

My husband married his high school sweetheart...it lasted about 10 years. Of course it didn't help that she went whacko Jehovah's Witness after their kids were born...

I have an amazingly shitty track record with marriage...#1 I was 20...turns out he was a jerk. When kid #2 was 3 months old he told me "I don't love you anymore, I don't want to be married to you anymore"...he already had a piece on the side...whom he married when our divorce was final. #2 was an abusive asshole who fucked me and the kids up bigtime. THEN...I met the man who, even with the problems we've had, has been the love of my life. We'll celebrate 20 years together this fall, 19 years married. 

So...I don't think it's age that has much to do with a successful marriage or not, I think there's a lot more to it...like the ability to learn to live with someone, grow together or apart, and work through the shit. 

[Four is Enough]

i think age, maturity level, knowledge of the other person, the times, and the location, and the family all factor into "when" someone is ripe to be married.. some are ready at 20, like my parents in 1949. some aren't ready at 60, like my cousin who died engaged, but never married.

 

Expectations differ. When my parents married, they expected to live on their own and make do with things they could afford. If any of my kids got married today, I think they' d expect, like so many people, a new home completely filled with things of their choosing.  My parents worked UP to the house.. and got it after 23 years of saving and living in rental homes.

I think having family nearby can make or break a marriage. Sometimes, the family wants to engulf the couple.. I think "enmeshed" is the word. Other times, the family expects the couple to navigate on their own, which can be a little "too" much independence for some couples.

I could go on, but Mr. Four just got home. Gotta make the leftovers!

[DaniLouisiana]

@feministxtian, you give me hope for my daughter! We just have to keep her from "getting lonely and stupid" in the meantime....

[closetcagebaby]

I can definitely get a little defensive when it comes to the subject of marrying young, because like many of us here, it is a personal subject. I'm 22 and chances are I'll be getting married in the next year or two (plans moving up due to Trump's insistence on me not having insurance) to my boyfriend, who is quite a bit older than me. On "paper", our relationship seems weird and unlikely to work out. Heck, we didn't expect it to either. But somehow it just works for us. 

But I have absolutely no trouble saying that I think Joy and Austin aren't anywhere near close to being ready for marriage. At 22, I've been living on my own for over six years, sown my wild oats, spent time getting to know who I am, and created a good life for MYSELF, before anything else. My relationship with my boyfriend is one of financial and social equality. It's a completely black and white situation when compared to any of the Duggar daughters.

[Ampak]

I got married at 24. I had a degree but, I graduated college in the middle of the mortgage/financial collapse so I had a hard time getting a good job. My fiancée lost his job and had a hard time finding gainful employment. Looking back, I would probably tell someone in a similar situation to wait but, somehow it all worked out. We did have A LOT of support financially and otherwise from family in the beginning.

[Tangy Bee]

This is such a complicated issue. Joy has actually traveled outside the U.S. several times throughout her life. She is very aware of how different others live their life. For some reason she "might" feel like her life is the best. Hundreds of fundies  flock to Austin's family retreat all the time. Business will probably pick up when he marries Joy, because she is a famous fundie. People will sign up just to catch a glimpse or brag about being good friends with a Duggar. I think we should have higher hopes for Hannie and her little sisters. For some reason I was ok with Alyssa Bates marrying at 19. But Joy...I'm still trying to figure this one out. Yes, there are plenty of people who marry young and do just fine. Joy has not had a normal life. Then again...it's probably normal to her and we are the nuts.

[December]

1 hour ago, Tangy Bee said:

She is very aware of how different others live their life.

I wonder how much interaction they genuinely have with people who hold other beliefs, beyond pleasantries with fans and interviews for puff pieces. Especially the young women. 

[killingxspree]

Yeah i personally don't think joy is too young to be courting im pretty sure she's at least 19? 19 is a little late to be courting (dating) if you ask me but in some ways the older the better because then they will have fewer fertile years = fewer children.

[PainfullyAware]

I met my now husband when I was 21, we started dating when I was 22 and were engaged 6 months later. He's eight years older. We just knew. We stayed engaged for over 6 yrs, delaying the wedding due to circumstances. We already felt married by then, after living together for years. We got married two years ago. So I made that commitment at a youngish age and I was absolutely ready. But I'd had a lot more life experience than Joy, and at that age a couple of years makes a big difference in maturity. I would say the whole Joshgate experience may have taken some of the wool from her eyes about fundie marriage. It would have been overwhelming to deal with being in the national spotlight as a family. So she may be a little more mature than her older sisters at that age. Maybe Austen seems like a sure bet...A safety blanket for a better life. I still think they may delay an engagement til the spring or early summer. When is she turning 20? I feel like she won't be married before then, because they won't want teenage bride headlines. They also don't seem to care about delaying storylines and producing a boring show.

[Carm_88]

12 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

This is such a complicated issue. Joy has actually traveled outside the U.S. several times throughout her life. She is very aware of how different others live their life. 

They don't exactly have interactions with people who live differently than them. Do you think that Joy hangs out with atheists? They wouldn't even try the food in Asia, they turned up their noses at other people's culture. They might have traveled but there's a difference between traveling and learning. Do you think they knew why the Great Wall of China was there or how old it was? They certainly didn't learn about Buddhism. They traveled so that they would have material for the show, they didn't travel because they had a yearning to learn about different cultures. They still stayed in their little Arkansas bubble.

[Imrlgoddess]

It's always interesting to me to see what age various folks consider young or old to marry.  I was 21 when I got married originally.  I didn't think that was young at all...I thought I was a little on the older side of the house and it was a good age.  But I come from a really small town where babies and weddings happen when folks are still technically teenagers and it's not taboo at all.  It was always said in our family that the women married late since we were all pretty much over 20 when we jumped the broom.  I've seen some marriages that began at 18 or so remain for 30 years.  Others have crashed and burned before 5.  I take it as the people involved:  how compatible they are, how responsible, and how serious (abuse not withstanding, that's an obvious GTFO).  

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

11 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

They still stayed in their little Arkansas bubble.

This isn't aimed at you personally, it just gives me the opportunity to say it.  The new political word it bubble, your bubble is to this their bubble is too that. These "bubbles" aren't new, we've always lived in them, my life in Des Moines is very different than my good friends like in Chicago, but not much different than someones in Omaha or Cleveland. there are various bubbles in everyone life, there is my geographical bubble, my social bubble and my family bubble, and lastly my personal bubble. Everyone lives in a multi layered bubble, and we as a society need to stop focusing on who's bubble is the best or most important.  Because to me MY bubbles are most important, to you YOUR bubbles are most important. Popping these bubbles are not the answer to make everything better but making them more transparent and easier to see through so we can acknowledge that others are important and necessary even if they seem weird to us. 

As for the Duggar's their bubbles are a 1 way mirror, they don't want to see through them and they only want others to see them. Therefor rendering them blind to the wants, needs and desires (not sexual) and making theirs the only wants, needs, desires in the universe.  Most people who have traveled like the Duggar's have do so to expand THEIR minds and world views, not narrow others into their bubbles. 

I'm just sick of hearing people say "you live in your silly bubble" well yeah, so do you, welcome to humanity, this isn't a new thing.  I want people to have safe bubbles 10,000 miles away others only care about their immediate 10 mile bubble so what happens out side of that isn't their problem. This isn't new eihter, just with the advent of social media and the internet, 24/7 connection to "the world" peoples bubbles are getting smaller and bigger depending on ones personal beliefs. 

[MargaretElliott]

I've always gotten a vibe that Joy is a bit more mature (or at least less insipid) than her sisters. In that contrived outdoor survival episode, they all agreed that she was the most prepared for the situation, while Jinger was just on the phone with "Baaaaaaaaabe." She's lightly mocked Jinger this whole time, especially when on the phone with Jeremy. I think she did so with Jessa as well (I can't remember specific examples, and I could definitely be wrong). When she talks, she just seems more real and earnest. These are all just little things I've picked up on, and I could be totally, 100% wrong, but perhaps this signifies that at 19, she's more ready to marry than Jill was at 23. Maybe I'm projecting because Joy is most like me, and I want her to be less of an asshole than her siblings/parents. Maybe I'm being blindly hopeful. I know she's just as steeped in kool-aid as the rest of them, but she seems more... human. Of course, we'll see if she devolves into a mindless, phone-addicted zombie as soon as the courtship is announced, capable of nothing but pandering to her man. If that happens, I will be sad. We'll just have to wait and see.

That being said, I think that the way the Duggars raise their daughters makes them completely unprepared for marriage, regardless of their age. They set them up for failure, providing no emotional safety net and laying on blame on women (who were told that their lives would be perfect if they kept sweet and had babies.) So I'm kind of talking about a sliding scale of readiness, where all the Duggar girls aren't ready (thanks to their parents), but perhaps some are more ready than others. While being simultaneously still not ready. I think. Does that make sense?

[Exjw2015deed]

The way Austin looks at joy in pictures is so staged that it's obnoxious. It's like they're programmed early that since they can't touch you can stare at them adoringly to show affection. He's never looking at the camera and it's annoying.  its so awkward and unnatural. Do they give a seminar at ATI "how to stare at your spouse like a serial killer" or "how to make crazy bug eyes when talking". ? #getoutofjoyscountenanceaustin 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

19 minutes ago, MargaretElliott said:

I've always gotten a vibe that Joy is a bit more mature (or at least less insipid) than her sisters. In that contrived outdoor survival episode, they all agreed that she was the most prepared for the situation, while Jinger was just on the phone with "Baaaaaaaaabe." She's lightly mocked Jinger this whole time, especially when on the phone with Jeremy. I think she did so with Jessa as well (I can't remember specific examples, and I could definitely be wrong). When she talks, she just seems more real and earnest. These are all just little things I've picked up on, and I could be totally, 100% wrong, but perhaps this signifies that at 19, she's more ready to marry than Jill was at 23. Maybe I'm projecting because Joy is most like me, and I want her to be less of an asshole than her siblings/parents. Maybe I'm being blindly hopeful. I know she's just as steeped in kool-aid as the rest of them, but she seems more... human. Of course, we'll see if she devolves into a mindless, phone-addicted zombie as soon as the courtship is announced, capable of nothing but pandering to her man. If that happens, I will be sad. We'll just have to wait and see.

That being said, I think that the way the Duggars raise their daughters makes them completely unprepared for marriage, regardless of their age. They set them up for failure, providing no emotional safety net and laying on blame on women (who were told that their lives would be perfect if they kept sweet and had babies.) So I'm kind of talking about a sliding scale of readiness, where all the Duggar girls aren't ready (thanks to their parents), but perhaps some are more ready than others. While being simultaneously still not ready. I think. Does that make sense?

I think Jessa and Joy have similar alpha female tendencies, Jessa comes across as more bitchy and Joy more laid back and snarky. Joy took over all the jurisdictions, when shew as 15/16 from Jessa (apprently DQ doesn't NOTHING in that house)  she is able to speak to large groups and convey her wishes with out being rude about it, where Jessa can't/can't be bothered too, and seems to be somewhat personable where Jessa just comes across as vain and selfish. Not sure if it is because Joy is nicer & or she's better at hiding it or if Jess just gives no fucks what others think about it.  

Also Joy was the 1st kid handed off to a sister mom, then had 2 more littles added, we've all seen how useless Jill is, Joy probably learned very young how to take care of herself, and when James and Jenni were added she was caring for them as well.  it appears Joy and Jenni have very little connection with MEchelle, but were visibly upset when Jill left. Joy seemed to 'get over it' pretty quick, not sure about Jenni she just seems over all of it at a VERY young age. It will be interesting to see the dynamic once Joy is out as well, with there being only ONE older sister there with all those males, and womin folk not having any saw over the min folk. Is Boob taking charge now because we all know MEchelle is just a shell with brown frizzy Aqua Net and a hideous green shirt, ugly skirt & sensible shoes. 

[danni9242]

My husband and I met at 18, married at 22, still together at 28 and hopefully it will carry on. 

My great aunt married at 17 and was married 45 years before her older husband died.

My mum married at 33 and it lasted 2 years.

Her friend married at 42 and lasted a year.

It can work out when you marry young, and I have hope because they have known eachother since childhood so no, 'Hey, here's the stranger you'll be marrying in 6 months time'.

 

Also, Duggar FB has a TBT of Joy. If they post her again I'll bet on an engagement anouncement for Valentine's because they did TBT for the other girls right before anouncing I think.

[nausicaa]

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but one thing I find interesting whenever the young marriage topic comes up is people mentioning how long so and so young couple stayed married, as if that is the definitive proof of a successful marriage. 

Plenty of people stay in unhappy or limiting marriages because they are scared of being alone or just don't believe they deserve better. In fact, I think people who marry young may become more likely to stay in an unhappy marriage (not necessarily abusive but even one that is just unsatisfying or feels insincere as they age and change) since they have no experience with being on their own.

So I don't know if the "my great-grandma Sue-Ellen married at 14 and stayed married for FIFTY years!" is the best evidence in support young marriage, since it's likely GG Sue-Ellen was taught to not have any dreams of her own and discouraged from having the self-esteem to dare to want more from a man.

To address anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence: I've seen this plenty in women of an older generation and from regions where teenage marriage is common.

Just my 

[HarleyQuinn]

Lord, "you'd have to ask Austin what he's thinking, or my dad."

Leave your creepy father out of this. 

[danni9242]

19 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but one thing I find interesting whenever the young marriage topic comes up is people mentioning how long so and so young couple stayed married, as if that is the definitive proof of a successful marriage. 

Plenty of people stay in unhappy or limiting marriages because they are scared of being alone or just don't believe they deserve better. In fact, I think people who marry young may become more likely to stay in an unhappy marriage (not necessarily abusive but even one that is just unsatisfying or feels insincere as they age and change) since they have no experience with being on their own.

So I don't know if the "my great-grandma Sue-Ellen married at 14 and stayed married for FIFTY years!" is the best evidence in support young marriage, since it's likely GG Sue-Ellen was taught to not have any dreams of her own and discouraged from having the self-esteem to dare to want more from a man.

To address anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence: I've seen this plenty in women of an older generation and from regions where teenage marriage is common.

Just my 

I totally agree it's not proof about any particular couple. I've also seen 'young marriages' fail and 'old marriages' last many years. I think the point is that the age you are when you get married does not doom you, nor gaurentee happiness, and actually nor does maturity. The central factors will always be whether you are a good match and whether you are both willing and able to face the bumps in the road together. 

[JesSky03]

11 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but one thing I find interesting whenever the young marriage topic comes up is people mentioning how long so and so young couple stayed married, as if that is the definitive proof of a successful marriage. 

Plenty of people stay in unhappy or limiting marriages because they are scared of being alone or just don't believe they deserve better. In fact, I think people who marry young may become more likely to stay in an unhappy marriage (not necessarily abusive but even one that is just unsatisfying or feels insincere as they age and change) since they have no experience with being on their own.

So I don't know if the "my great-grandma Sue-Ellen married at 14 and stayed married for FIFTY years!" is the best evidence in support young marriage, since it's likely GG Sue-Ellen was taught to not have any dreams of her own and discouraged from having the self-esteem to dare to want more from a man.

To address anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence: I've seen this plenty in women of an older generation and from regions where teenage marriage is common.

Just my 

I'm not sure I agree with you. I mean I'm sure your right in some cases, but I don't think its really the age that is a factor but more personality and life experience. And in my experience, those people who can't imagine living on their own generally jump from relationship to relationship very quickly.

[Coconut Flan]

19 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but one thing I find interesting whenever the young marriage topic comes up is people mentioning how long so and so young couple stayed married, as if that is the definitive proof of a successful marriage. 

As night follows day, any issue about marriage, childbirth, weddings, etc, will call forth the anecdata and personal stories of how it was or should be done.  

[nausicaa]

2 minutes ago, JesSky03 said:

I'm not sure I agree with you. I mean I'm sure your right in some cases, but I don't think its really the age that is a factor but more personality and life experience. And in my experience, those people who can't imagine living on their own generally jump from relationship to relationship very quickly.

I definitely agree that personality and life experience play into it as well. I just think there's only so much life experience someone can have under a certain age.

And yeah, I know plenty of people who are very codependent and have had a series of relationships one after the other. And my friend who is probably the worst about turning herself into what her husband wants and not having an identity of her own married at 26, so young, but not teen marriage young. I don't think it's a straight line on the age vs. successful marriage chart.

[Jilli]

My parents got married at 23, but we're together since 15/16. They got engaged at 17. They're still going strong, but they clearly aren't rushers.

 

[HermioneSparrow]

Truth is.. I think (of course I'm not an expert) most of these fundie marriages don't actually work but they stay married because divorce is a sin and all that jazz. Fundie marriages that work are pure luck IMO. Why do I know though? I've never been married and I'm not that keen on marriage maybe because I've had zero luck in the love department but I think there's not a recipe for a functional marriage, people are different, some are toxic, some others not. Depends on the couple I guess. My parents got married when they were really young, they were fundie catholics or whatever and they never cheat on each other or hit but there was psychological abuse going on and my mom one day woke up at 40 years old and realize she went straight outta high school to be married to someone she barely knew, to be pregnant with a honeymoon baby and she got lucky my sister left her unable to have more children cause her sister went through the same and she was on baby number 7 already in a highly disfunctional unhappy marriage (still is) so my mom left my dad, went to college, got a nursing degree and is very successful now but she missed a lot of things and although she doesn't regret us, she says she was very unhappy for the longest time. I don't believe in young marriages unless is really what makes the couple happy, not forced like these situations. Joy doesn't see it as many fundies, she's young and naive like my mom was, she might think she's happy getting the happy ending but reality is very different. I do know some are lucky and get happy marriages but believe me, sadly that is not the norm. Of course this is just my opinion, like I said I'm not an expert.

Sometimes I'm afraid for Jana, my bestie growing up (fundie catholic too) is getting to know a guy her family set her up cause she's "old" already according to the stupid standards, she's truly desperate to get married and have kids and I told her and warned her yesterday to think about it, the guy is a widow and has kids which is fine but I'm not convinced, I told her she's young and she needs to see the world and experience a lot of things but at the end of the day it's her choice. Something like this can happen to Jana.

[AnnaRuk09]

56 minutes ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Sometimes I'm afraid for Jana, my bestie growing up (fundie catholic too) is getting to know a guy her family set her up cause she's "old" already according to the stupid standards, she's truly desperate to get married and have kids and I told her and warned her yesterday to think about it, the guy is a widow and has kids which is fine but I'm not convinced, I told her she's young and she needs to see the world and experience a lot of things but at the end of the day it's her choice. Something like this can happen to Jana.

Possible. But Jana's no dummy. For many years she has claimed that she hasn't found her Prince Charming and that she's "waiting on God." On the other hand, her other sisters entered courtship at 19 (Joy), 20 (Jessa), and 22 (Jill and Jinger). Jana is 27 going on 28(!!). I think that's telling and that she's quite smart and calculated.

Jana, at 27, is the last single adult daughter left in the Duggar household. IMHO the reason she is the last one left is because she truly hasn't found the one yet. She isn't gonna go for a creep like Tim Robertson. She isn't going to settle for less. If she wanted to get married that bad, I'm sure she's had many many times she could have settled for less. But years have passed and she's still waiting. Unlike her sisters, she's not going to settle or the first one that seems interested or compatible. From what can be observed, she's looking for her soulmate and won't begin a courtship/get married once she finds him. I think time has demonstrated that she will not just simply go for someone or settle for less.