Joy and Austin: dating with a purpose .... or something (part 4)

[Phoenix]

15 hours ago, Helena Handbaket said:

I have serious question. Does anyone know what happens if someone is widowed?  Do you "court" if you are interested in remarriage? I can't imagine having a chaperone at 30, 40, 50 years old!  Do you bring your children? What's the deal? 

That is a really good question. Does the hive vagina know of any widowed and remarried fundies? Or are widows and widowers supposed to "keep sacred" the memories of their departed spouses?  Now that they know about the sex, would they be trusted to follow the rules without chaperones or is it a moot point once your virginity card expires? 

I wouldn't be surprised if some widowed fundies were secretly deeply relieved to be free of their spouses and not remotely interested in being married again under such a restrictive belief system. Granted that happens outside of the fundy world as well, but I suspect it might be more common in the fundy universe. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

23 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

That is a really good question. Does the hive vagina know of any widowed and remarried fundies? Or are widows and widowers supposed to "keep sacred" the memories of their departed spouses?  Now that they know about the sex, would they be trusted to follow the rules without chaperones or is it a moot point once your virginity card expires? 

I wouldn't be surprised if some widowed fundies were secretly deeply relieved to be free of their spouses and not remotely interested in being married again under such a restrictive belief system. Granted that happens outside of the fundy world as well, but I suspect it might be more common in the fundy universe. 

Oh I'm sure the women stay unmarried while the men remarry within a year or two. If you look at stats, men typically remarry sooner than women after divorce. I have a lot of thoughts on why this is and they are all based in sexism and gender roles.

[backyard sylph]

On 1/27/2017 at 8:52 AM, Gillyweed said:

If I ever get married I already know I'll ask one of my cousins to be a bridesmaid, but not my other cousin. She'd just make everything so dramatic and focused on herself. Tbh, I hate hanging out with her but there's like an unspoken rule that the other cousin and I can't do things like sleepover or see a show without her, as it would cause *drama*. I'm already preparing for her outburst when she find out I wouldn't ask her. 

I feel like your wedding is the time you should be allowed to throw down the gauntlet and say, "Sorry, I'm only including people I get along well with/like." But I guess probably not...

[eveandadam]

On 28.1.2017 at 9:22 PM, Phoenix said:

That is a really good question. Does the hive vagina know of any widowed and remarried fundies? Or are widows and widowers supposed to "keep sacred" the memories of their departed spouses?  Now that they know about the sex, would they be trusted to follow the rules without chaperones or is it a moot point once your virginity card expires? 

I wouldn't be surprised if some widowed fundies were secretly deeply relieved to be free of their spouses and not remotely interested in being married again under such a restrictive belief system. Granted that happens outside of the fundy world as well, but I suspect it might be more common in the fundy universe. 

I don't know. would a widow not move in with her oldest brother or father or uncle and help in their household?  I would think that widows are free from the pressure of being a married women in the cult, but I can imagine that she will face a much harder pressure from her family to care for her elderly parents or to help in the household of her siblings, now that she doesn't have her "own life". Look at Anna Duggar. She couldn't live alone. I'm pretty sure she was pressured to move in with JB Duggar and wasn't allowed under "Duggar family law" to live in that house by herself with the kids.

I always asked myself: Does Anna Duggar have a bank account? Does she have access to money? Or is it all JB Duggars account and Josh's account?

[Marly]

1 hour ago, eveandadam said:

 Look at Anna Duggar. She couldn't live alone. I'm pretty sure she was pressured to move in with JB Duggar and wasn't allowed under "Duggar family law" to live in that house by herself with the kids.

I always asked myself: Does Anna Duggar have a bank account? Does she have access to money? Or is it all JB Duggars account and Josh's account?

I've been wondering about this as well, and not only regarding widows, but what about the women who don't marry at all? And if they stay with their parents until the partents die, where do they go then? 
My great aunt and uncle (brother and sister), very devout catholics, both never got married. They lived with their parents until their parents died, and after the death of their parents they stayed in that house where they lived together till they died themselves. My aunt did all the cooking and cleaning and other household chores while my uncle worked. I wonder if after the death of their parents they both never married out of concern for each other; my uncle would probably not have been able to take care of himself, and I'm not sure if their religion would have allowed my aunt to live by herself). 
Looking back at their situation now, and looking at how Anna didn't live alone, and how Jana still lives with her parents, I really wonder what happens to those fundies that never marry, especially those that don't have other unmarried siblings to live together with.

[CharlieInCharge]

Sounds like a glimpse into Jana and John David's future. Not a pretty one, but plausible.

[Four is Enough]

I think some people never find the urge to marry. I've had several relatives and inlaws who stayed with a parent, until the parent died, then either remained in the house alone or moved in with a widowed sibling. This would be difficult for some fundies, I suppose, who are destined to marry and have babies, but then we have entire families like the Arndts still living at home. Or certain family members, like Sarah Maxwell, destined to remain home. Was she chosen for the role, or did she walk into it?

 

Do the Arndts and Maxwells fundamentally understand (although never admitting) that this mega family for God thing isn't going to work?

[ScorpiousMalfoy]

On 28.01.2017 at 9:47 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Oh I'm sure the women stay unmarried while the men remarry within a year or two. If you look at stats, men typically remarry sooner than women after divorce. I have a lot of thoughts on why this is and they are all based in sexism and gender roles.

It always baffled me too. I'm not even talking about divorcees, but the widowers vs. widows. I don't know any widow that remarried or even dated. Both widowers I know found a woman within one year after their wives' death (both of those wives had cancers and it was very traumatic for the whole families). Huh. Maybe the woman is expected to be unhappy after spouse's death when there's no such requirement for the men? Alternatively, the men need us more than we need them...

[Bad Wolf]

Getting back to Joy. She's a political intern and taking bible classes. Shouldn't she be preparing to be a good helpmeet instead?

[QuiverDance]

16 minutes ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

It always baffled me too. I'm not even talking about divorcees, but the widowers vs. widows. I don't know any widow that remarried or even dated. Both widowers I know found a woman within one year after their wives' death (both of those wives had cancers and it was very traumatic for the whole families). Huh. Maybe the woman is expected to be unhappy after spouse's death when there's no such requirement for the men? Alternatively, the men need us more than we need them...

 

Men who are used to having wives need wives way more than wives who are used to having husbands need (or want) husbands.  

[ScorpiousMalfoy]

@Bad Wolf she's an intern? I must've missed it...

Oh, it's not like Bible classes she's allowed to take are intellectually challenging or somehow preparing her for the real life or anything. Accounting classes, economics, sociology, history, mathematics, nutrition, anything else - that would be impressive. 

However, that internship is interesting. Where can I read up on that?

 

[nausicaa]

56 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Men who are used to having wives need wives way more than wives who are used to having husbands need (or want) husbands.  

That's a good point. Also, if the marriage was one of traditional gender roles, the man's primary job was to be the breadwinner. The widow now has that taken care of through Social Security and life insurance pay outs. 

I have noticed the phenomenon of (some) widowers remarrying so damn fast. In one case the man still had young kids and I thought it was actually insensitive and disrespectful to the kids who were still grieving their mom. (This man is not exactly known for his emotional intelligence though, so...)

[flycat]

1 hour ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

@Bad Wolf she's an intern? I must've missed it...

Oh, it's not like Bible classes she's allowed to take are intellectually challenging or somehow preparing her for the real life or anything. Accounting classes, economics, sociology, history, mathematics, nutrition, anything else - that would be impressive. 

However, that internship is interesting. Where can I read up on that?

 

The Arkansas house only meets for 60 days or so in the year (so January to early march). So joy would be done in time for wedding planning.

[SamiKatz]

1 hour ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

It always baffled me too. I'm not even talking about divorcees, but the widowers vs. widows. I don't know any widow that remarried or even dated. Both widowers I know found a woman within one year after their wives' death (both of those wives had cancers and it was very traumatic for the whole families). Huh. Maybe the woman is expected to be unhappy after spouse's death when there's no such requirement for the men? Alternatively, the men need us more than we need them...

 

After my stepfather retired he moved to a town just north of the city I live in, and as my Mom still worked she stayed in the city and went to his place on the weekends (best thing to ever happen to them - their marriage improved immensely).  My step dad very sadly did die, and when we asked my Mom about re-marrying (she was only in her mid 50s), she said she had absolutely no interest in getting married again 'cause she was done with having to take care of other people.  

[SassyPants]

Based on GM Mary being a widow, you move in with one of your kids...that's what they do.

[Nicole Jinger Duggar]

I find this topic so depressing. Like, imagine this actually being an issue in your life. You don't get any options or freedom. You don't get to leave unless you're married. You might have to move back in if you can't stay married. I'd feel so trapped. I think it just hit me, I mean I know this isn't a new thing but wow...

[SassyPants]

Maybe this is Joy's thought process on marrying young:

At #9, surrounded by a sea of brothers, and having 4 older sisters, Joy was insulated from the bulk of the work load and major responsibilities. There is only one Jana and there will only be one Jana. I think JB and M have always treated Jana differently. Yes, she had more responsibilities at a much younger age, but I think she also has a different status in terms of JB and M. So, Joy knows that even if Jana were to leave, she herself is never going to be promoted to Jana's position. So, more work, no extra fringe benefits...and Joy decided, hell no. May as well get out. 

The little kids respect Jana and IMO, based on what we are shown, Jana does a nice job with her younger siblings. It's a good fit.

Can you guys imagine if Jessa was running the TTH? No, just no.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

22 hours ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

It always baffled me too. I'm not even talking about divorcees, but the widowers vs. widows. I don't know any widow that remarried or even dated. Both widowers I know found a woman within one year after their wives' death (both of those wives had cancers and it was very traumatic for the whole families). Huh. Maybe the woman is expected to be unhappy after spouse's death when there's no such requirement for the men? Alternatively, the men need us more than we need them...

I get this too, my grandfather died before I was born & she died 30 years later, she never dated, never remarried, not for 30 years. My parents divorced almost 17 years ago, my dad remarried 2 years later, my mom hasn't had so much as a date, doesn't want one, but then again my mom isn't fit to live with any living organism, she's not a nice compassionate or flexible person. My coworker just remarried over new years, his wife of 25 years had died about 3 years ago. My friend died 2 1/2 years ago if cancer she had just turned 48 & her husband of 30 years (she was buried on their 30th wedding anniversary)  was 49. She did tell me that she told him he had to remarry because he needed someone to take care of him, they are/were both very churchy people they are what I would call fundy light people) he started dating someone about 6 months ago, but I know had the rolls reversed she wouldn't have remarry, after years of talking in Dr. Phil speak, she made her decision now she had to make her decision right, she married 3 weeks after she turned 18, because they were having sex and she didn't want to be a sinner anymore. I don't know any widows who have remarried but I know several widowers.  My husband is 10 years older than I am and honestly I don't see myself marrying again after he dies (assuming he dies before me) bu tI could see him remarrying after I die. 

 

Wait my uncle  never remarried, after my aunt died, she died in 1993 and he died in 2016 so he was a widower for 23 years, that is the ONLY widower I know that never remarried. 

[emscm]

This is slightly off topic, but Mr. & I visited an old coal mine this summer. Our tour guide told us about how when one of the miners died, his wife and children needed to vacate the mining company's town after a ridiculously short period, I forget how long but it was about a month or something. He said that what ended up happening was that the widows would often remarry within that time to one of the single miners so that they would still be taken care of and not displaced.

I wonder if since social security and life insurance are now commonplace, not remarrying is a form of freedom for widows. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I found an interesting article that deals with widowers who remarry vs. widows who don't remarry:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3655111/The-world-is-full-of-remarried-men....html

It includes this, that is similar to things I've heard or read elsewhere:

Quote

Many studies have claimed that for a man to remarry is a compliment both to his late wife, and to the experience of marriage. It made him happy before, and will do so again.

But this part make me smile, because it explains a widow's perspective so well:

Quote

Thus, while many women would like to remarry, they are inclined to approach it more carefully – since the personal investment by women is much higher, the rewards must be commensurate.

 

One widow I encountered put it like this: "Another husband would have to be well worth ironing eight shirts a week for."

[nst]

now Joy is speaking in the latest People magazine article. 

nothing new except they remodel houses together

she has know him for 15 years since he joined her home church 

she is excited for what God has in store for her and him 

you have to ask him and her dad if they will get married 

yawn 

 

[Four is Enough]

One thing I think is different about Joy's courtship: If she and Austin have truly known each other all these years, they may in fact have the best possible start to their relationship of all the currently married/courting siblings. They could actually have PLAYED together as young children, before the sexes were segregated. They have seen each other's families at work. They know the parents well-ish. One positive I see is that the Forsyths, for whatever reason, stopped at two (or was it 3) kids. The camp is an outdoorsy kind of place, and I think Joy would thrive there. Wasn't she the "tomboy" to begin with? So she'll get to do outdoorsy stuff at the camp. I'm betting their married life will at least start there.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I'm more than a little shocked that he was allowed to put his arm around her. And yes @Four is Enough I do think it will be beneficial at least at the beginning that they have known each other for so long, in so much as these girls are SO sheltered that I'm sure Jill, Jessa & Jinger might have been more than a little nervous being alone with their spouses for the 1st time EVER, not only were they alone they were expected to have sex, they had not so much as kissed but a few hours ago now they have to get naked and bump uglies? I can't imagine going from the extreme of NO TOUCHING to shagging (do people still say that? I don't want to be vulgar and use the word I want to) in the span of a few hours, with someone you've only known for a few months. When you've never been allowed to be alone in your life prior to this night/afternoon.  But other than that if Austin and Joy are chin deep in the Kool aid they'll have 20 kids if they follow her parents lead and that is no life for ANYONE. 

[nickelodeon]

3 hours ago, nst said:

you have to ask him and her dad if they will get married 

 

Well...that's super depressing.

[QuiverDance]

I am in my early 40's, and my fiance is in his early 50's.  Thinking about this stuff scares the living daylights out of me.