RC Sproul Jr, 2016 MERGED

[MamaJunebug]

35 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

It's weird to me that these things are going on in the Sproul family. I mean, so many fundies look up to them as perfect, and here Spanky is being such a hot mess all the time. Most fundies don't look into them as much as we do, but if they did, I wonder what they'd think or if they'd just write it off.

Similar things have happened in the Billy Graham and John Piper* families and there's been nary an eyelash blinked. Some men [sic] are just too blessed by God to be the subject of mere mortals' opinions.

@Corntree wrote, 

"God needs to get his message straight. "

With all respect, I think God speaks God's messsges pretty plainly to each person's heart. It's when men [and there have been 99.99% men involved in theology] posture themselves as God's translators, and when people listen to translations rather than their own conscience, that God seems confused.  JHMO, of course. 

*If you haven't heard about John "Flutterhands" Piper, prepare yourself. This one's made a mint off "Christian hedonism" and calls his blog "desiring god." He's infamous for counseling that a woman can endure abuse "for a season" among other wretched inanities.  His son Barnabas recently left his wife & kids and there wasn't so much as a sigh from Piper or his Pipines.

[Schmoopy]

That's a good that's a good point. Although, both ceremonies were before God and approved by both parents and family.  Divorce isn't scandalous when statistics show that half of divorces are among those in the church, it's sad.  I think that's why they picked Ruth and Boaz. Grace and Mercy. Pressure can do many things to a person, just like the tragic loss of great actors/singers  like Robin Williams or Whitney Houston.  We are just recipients of their talents and gifts.  Rarely, do we ever get to know or see the  real stories behind those we see from a distance.  

[FundieFarmer]

29 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

His son Barnabas recently left his wife & kids and there wasn't so much as a sigh from Piper or his Pipines.

Pastors are upheld to the verses in Timothy that govern Deacons and Elders, and more so. Drawing from the passage in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 that sets for the standards for Elders:

"1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap."

So, by those standards, one would hope Barnabas has stopped preaching until he's gotten his personal life in order.

Mmmm, nope. He's tweeting moral platitudes and inspirational quotes about that speak more about his own situation than anybody else's.

Your more extreme Fundie families would even argue that with Barnabas' failures, John should stop preaching until his son got in line. But that won't happen. Just like it didn't happen with Sproul Sr. So maybe this patriarchal situation isn't as strong as it's made out to be.

ETA: People fuck up all the time. I get it. But when you preach the messages that the Pipers do, and you expect the Bible to be followed as stringently as they do, then you best be willing to put your chicken neck on the line for it too– even when that means your career.

[sawasdee]

The problem with that kilt is that it is TOO SMALL! Two sizes larger, and it would have fitted his waist, and been at least 4 inches higher - and would have looked good.

Oh, vanity of vanities! All is vanity! (Ecclesiastes, I think..)

[sawasdee]

22 minutes ago, FundieFarmer said:

ETA: People fuck up all the time. I get it. But when you preach the messages that the Pipers do, and you expect the Bible to be followed as stringently as they do, then you best be willing to put your chicken neck on the line for it too– even when that means your career.

Bbbut -bbbut that would mean their income would suffer! You can't expect that!

I thought I was over being surprised by the sheer hypocrisy of so many fundies. I guess I'm not.

[Anonymousguest]

19 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

The problem with that kilt is that is TOO SMALL! Two sizes larger, and it would have fitted his waist, and been at least 4 inches higher - and would have looked good.

Oh, vanity of vanities! All is vanity! (Ecclesiastes, I think..)

I don't know what you are talking about, he's had the same 32in waist since highschool! 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, Schmoopy said:

Maybe she was worth marrying twice. Ha!

You may be a bit exaggerating with the ass kissing/leg humping. She is a married woman you may have to get over your crush.

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, FundieFarmer said:

Your more extreme Fundie families would even argue that with Barnabas' failures, John should stop preaching until his son got in line. But that won't happen.

Because patriarchal rules don't get exercised on the patriarchs, themselves, in the same way they are exercised on .... everybody else.  

52 minutes ago, Anonymousguest said:

I don't know what you are talking about, he's had the same 32in waist since highschool! 

Ermagherd my ex- waist measurement was 47" but he still bought 36" pants! Sling that waistband low!!!!!  To his credit (one of the only times I will) he knew he'd never be able to wear a kilt, since it would look for all the world like a lampshade. There's no hitching THAT waistband under the gut, "living in a van down by the river"-style!

[hoipolloi]

Two weddings can often happen in jurisdictions where a civil marriage is required but the couple wants a religious marriage as well. In those cases (think Grace Kelly), the two ceremonies are normally on the same day or, as with the Rainiers, on succeeding days.

[sawasdee]

A kilt is one of the most flattering garments for someone with ample - embonpoint?* Just wear the right size, and you will look good. In fact, slender men don't look very good in a kilt. You need a bit of body mass to fill it out properly!

* definition - Embonpoint is most often used to describe people of heavy, but not unattractive, girth.

Please note: I am NOT saying the Sproul is attractive! But with a well fitting kilt he would have looked better.

 

[hoipolloi]

3 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

A kilt is one of the most flattering garments for someone with ample - embonpoint?

Or "avoirdupois," as a genteel lady of my grandmother's acquaintance used to say!

[Howl]

I've always loved the term zaftig (for women). 

[Corntree]

12 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

With all respect, I think God speaks God's messsges pretty plainly to each person's heart. It's when men [and there have been 99.99% men involved in theology] posture themselves as God's translators, and when people listen to translations rather than their own conscience, that God seems confused.  JHMO, of course.

Do you mean that the whole Bible is just pompous men claiming to know God's will and that we should just listen to what God says in our hearts? Like, Judeo-Christianity was just made up by the men in charge and is therefore irrelevant, but God does exist? Or is Christianity still important to you?

(I already wrote the following novel before I realized you may have meant what I wrote above, but I really don't want to delete all of my beautiful, beautiful thoughts [haha], that took me 5 million years to write out, so here goes. None of the following is meant as an attack on anyone. And yes, it's totally off topic.)

I think the three passages I mentioned have very clear rules for if and when remarriage is allowed, and they do not jibe with each other. It's not something that's open for interpretation IMO. The Biblical message in this situation is inconsistent. How can God's message speak to someone's heart if he has multiple conflicting messages? Do you just pick whatever feels best to you at the time? That's not a rational way to read and understand the Bible. And if you read the Bible in a spirit of faith, I think you don't see the Bible for what it really is. The Bible needs to be read critically with an understanding of what was going on when it was written. Anyway, I think, for instance, that if a woman has an abusive spouse she should be free to remarry after divorce. But the Bible doesn't say remarriage is permissible in that situation. If your conscience tells you that remarriage should be allowed in that situation, your conscience is contradicting the Bible, so why are you even using the Bible as a guidebook for your life? Why not just follow your conscience? Or if you think God is telling you that remarriage is okay in that situation, you have to admit that contradicts the alleged Word of God, so is the Bible really inspired at all by God? What use does the Bible have in my life? I think a lot of Christians are reading the Bible through rose-colored glasses and even when certain beliefs or personal experiences contradict what the Bible says, they still act like the Bible is still so important. I am NOT saying fundies have all the correct ideas about the Bible, but I think liberal Christians esp. are more just inspired by Christianity and have sort of created a new religion based on the parts of the Bible they like. All of this is NOT directed at you; I just feel very strongly about this and based on lots of reading and thinking, I just don't know why I should be Christian or give the Bible a place of importance in my life.

[MamaJunebug]

@Corntree, I know what you mean about hating to waste an inspired essay!  And I tl;dr enough to believe you're not just itching for a fight, but really  wanting to discuss. So am I! But I am off to a long-awaited music lesson (!!!) -- will really read what you've written, later today. 

(I may even log in on a desktop so I can really 'xpress myself!!!)

[DomWackTroll]

23 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

*If you haven't heard about John "Flutterhands" Piper, prepare yourself... He's infamous for counseling that a woman can endure abuse "for a season" among other wretched inanities.  

And Wartburg Watch is now reporting that Piper recently advised some guy that his wife may have miscarried their child because of his porn viewing. Maybe. Hard to say, because God doesn't come flat out and tell us, but maybe. 

[MamaJunebug]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:52 PM, Corntree said:

Do you mean that the whole Bible is just pompous men claiming to know God's will and that we should just listen to what God says in our hearts? Like, Judeo-Christianity was just made up by the men in charge and is therefore irrelevant, but God does exist? Or is Christianity still important to you?

(.....

I think the three passages I mentioned have very clear rules for if and when remarriage is allowed, and they do not jibe with each other. It's not something that's open for interpretation IMO. The Biblical message in this situation is inconsistent. How can God's message speak to someone's heart if he has multiple conflicting messages? Do you just pick whatever feels best to you at the time? That's not a rational way to read and understand the Bible. And if you read the Bible in a spirit of faith, I think you don't see the Bible for what it really is. The Bible needs to be read critically with an understanding of what was going on when it was written. ...... I am NOT saying fundies have all the correct ideas about the Bible, but I think liberal Christians esp. are more just inspired by Christianity and have sort of created a new religion based on the parts of the Bible they like. All of this is NOT directed at you; I just feel very strongly about this and based on lots of reading and thinking, I just don't know why I should be Christian or give the Bible a place of importance in my life.

Hi, @Corntree -- I've finally made it to a desktop!

The questions you ask show a great amount of thought and concern.  Many people never get to this point - indeed, it's taken me way longer than it has you (I'm presuming you're younger than me.  Almost everybody is!!!)

I've left up the questions I can answer, in hopes of not quoting too much.  Here we go.

It's probably helpful to know where I'm coming from.  For decades, I've questioned the doctrine that good people of faith who don't accept Jesus don't go to heaven.  I was raised Lutheran in the 1950s and taught to use both heart and mind in life -- about everything.  (I don't know what the church is teaching young people now.)  In my strain of Lutheranism, clergy are all men, and when I figured out that some men consider the "calling" of the pastorate to be a career with ambitions of executive glory more than ministering to people looking for guidance, it was a shock. That would've been about 40 years ago, when the church survived a schism.

Anyhoo, in recent years as I've investigated fundamentalism and extremism in all walks of life and faith, it's been distressing to see what ambitions of celebrity and ease have done to faiths in general.  The ayatollahs, the faith healers, the swamis, the rebbes, the megachurch celebs ... any faith system you look at, there's people in it for themselves, and the results stink.

I probably spend way too much time at The Wartburg Watch, for instance, aghast at what "leaders" have turned into and how their selfishness hurts so many.

All that said, I keep studying Christianity and Judaism.  IIRC - and I often don't - the wise man Hillel was asked to explain the Torah.  He said he could do it while standing on one foot: "That which you wouldn't want done to you, do not do to others."

That's a version of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto  you," which I forget if Jesus of Nazareth actually said, or similar.

Somebody distilled the 10 Commandments into two: Honor God and be good to people.

These may be oversimplifications but ISTM that we can clarify a lot of situations by thinking through them thusly.  A husband beats a wife  and she is powerless to stop it, and wants away from him: would a pastor want to be beaten, and repeatedly? No. The husband won't stop beating the wife: would he want that done to him? Would any one want to be free of a life of being beaten? Is beating someone good for them? Is a person who beats another person acting in a way that shows s/he honors God? 

Of course human nature is such that we want to get our way by any means available, so we argue and split hairs and wheedle and look for loopholes.  And so laws and more laws have come about.  But at the very simplest heart of it: to say to a beaten spouse (for example), "there are three passages in scripture and 2 don't seem to address beatings as a reason to divorce, so sit tight, eh?" makes no sense.

I've rambled, but there it is.  We use heart and head in learning about our faith and other faiths.  We approach life based on some beautifully basic rules.  When "leaders" make cruel, heartless little bon mots like John Piper does, or preach nastily like the guy at Mars Hill used to (he's in AZ now), or spend thousandfold more hours on how to take over churches than how to minister to those in the churches like leadership of some Baptist entities do .... those are the pompous men who are in religion for something other than Christ taught.

Now, you write don't know why you should be Christian or give the Bible a place of importance in your life.  I personally think that God loves these questions and has given you intellect and emotions to explore them.  I'm actually wondering the same things!, yes, even at this late date.  What does it mean to "be Christian"? What importance should any book that's held in high esteem by so many, have in one's life?

I don't think it's ever bad to question, to search, to wonder.  Perhaps it will help you to focus on the good you see in Christianity, among Christians on the ground floor, not the ones in the penthouse offices or even in the pulpits without really listening to what they preach and what they do and encourage us to do.  Look for the Christians - clergy or laity - who seem to be doing what Jesus told us to do for others.  And pray and continue to use your wonderful mind to think about what makes sense to you; what actions bring peace, justice, food and shelter, hope and confidence, healing.  My instinct and experience hint that you will find people of good will and effectiveness on the ground.  And sometimes in the pulpit, and you'll have more an idea of the A's to your Q's.  And that when the experts give their opinions on what the Biblical options are, for those in need, you'll be able to reflect on what they say, and whether or not it really makes a difference in real-world scenarios.  It may not, or it may! 

Talk about a long response.  I hope the mods don't mind it.  All my heart goes out to you, dove.

[CyborgKin]

17 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

That's a version of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto  you," which I forget if Jesus of Nazareth actually said, or similar.

Somebody distilled the 10 Commandments into two: Honor God and be good to people.

Yeah, that was Jesus.  Quoting Luke chapter 6 from the NKJV

Quote

27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

The 10-commandment-distilling bit was Jesus too, in Matthew 22.

Quote

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[MamaJunebug]

@CyborgKin, my heartfelt thanks. I'm in your debt.

[jojo]

Were Spanky and wife at the recent Phillips/Sproul wedding?

And, if my research is correct, it appears the new wife is no stranger to criminal-minded husbands. Her former one committed some seroius crimes...unless the names and dates are just a coincidence.

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, jojo said:

Were Spanky and wife at the recent Phillips/Sproul wedding?

They are not visible in any of the public photos.

 

2 hours ago, jojo said:

it appears the new wife is no stranger to criminal-minded husbands. Her former one committed some seroius crimes

Which former husband? Spanky is reportedly her 4th.

[CrossingRivers]

I’m fairly new to snarking on Sproul Jr. Growing up Fundie, he and his father were admired. Why do some of you call him,”Spanky?”

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, CrossingRivers said:

I’m fairly new to snarking on Sproul Jr. Growing up Fundie, he and his father were admired. Why do some of you call him,”Spanky?”

Hi, and welcome.  While Sproul Senior is comparatively respectable, if not admired, Junior has quite a string of scandals in his wake.  Daddy seems to have bailed him out several times, but the DUI with kids in the car may have been the final straw.

Some of us call him Spanky because he apparently enjoyed exercising Christian Domestic Discipline with his late wife.  We don't know whether she enjoyed it.

My absolute favorite Spanky line is still "I was only online to help my aging parents" when he was caught in the Ashley Madison scandal.

[CrossingRivers]

@Palimpsest thank you. I had no idea! I had friends that did internships at Highland Study Center, they love the experience and Sproul Jr. I was invited to visit them, but I never did because the place gave me the creeps. 

[MamaJunebug]

32 minutes ago, CrossingRivers said:

@Palimpsest thank you. I had no idea! I had friends that did internships at Highland Study Center, they love the experience and Sproul Jr. I was invited to visit them, but I never did because the place gave me the creeps. 

Welcome!

So, HSC was really a place? I thought it was basically Spanky’s basement!

[CrossingRivers]

2 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Welcome!

So, HSC was really a place? I thought it was basically Spanky’s basement!

It was set up similar to Doug Wilson’s “college.” A couple of larger buildings, one with offices for the interns/staff and another used as a church/meeting house. Interns stayed with families in the church and worked on the magazine, email updates, etc. 

Like I said earlier, I had some friends intern there and they sent me pictures. It was weird, in a creepy way.