Michael and Brandon Keilen

[Melissa1977]

11 hours ago, jacduggar said:

I think JB has more of a controlling personality in general. I'm sure Josh's molestations just sent it into overdrive (hence kids living very close and working for daddy Duggar). I really think that Kelly and Gil let their kids have more room for their own 'Godly' interests, whereas JB and Michelle wanted their kids to do this, this, and this-no fuss, no fun, no outside interests. 

 

I I have no doubt Gil would keep his kids right in his pocket if they went through the same sh*t the Duggars covered up. Absolutely. But I also think KJ and Gil would have given their kids more room to explore their personal interests (within the Gothard parameters, of course). 

Gil and Kelly are control freaks, but I see a difference with Duggars. JB is insanelly controlling and feels deeply insecure when kids take their own way. Plus JB wants to be the leader and the "superior" (so no kids at college, no kids with important jobs, no son-in-law richer than them, etc). On the other hand, Bates LOVE to have kids with degrees, with music careers,having a congresman in-law, because these things make them feel them succesful and because they love money and power, in their fundie way.

So despite both families are controlling,, Bates encourage kids to go out if it's a way to success (in a fundie way), but Duggars prefer unsuccesful kids staying at home. 

Of course, limiting their kids choices and allowing only a few decissions, makes Bates parenting awful. But in that suffocating world, they have better future than Duggars.

[formergothardite]

I also think that since JB was able to be successful without a college degree, he probably doesn't see the value of it. 

[Exjw2015deed]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I also think that since JB was able to be successful without a college degree, he probably doesn't see the value of it. 

Agreed. He has said it so many times in so many different words. I remember him saying most people go to school and work in a field that they didn't even study. That's true to some extent but many jobs require a degree no matter what. The world is not the same as it was in 1986 when he was 18. If Josh Duggar was never on tv, there's no way he would be qualified to even work at that hate group in D.C. They need to admit it is tlc, not god, who has given them all that they have. 

Gil and Kelly both have degrees that they don't use, which is why im surprised they encourage their children to even spend their money on clown college. 

[alba]

Agreed. He has said it so many times in so many different words. I remember him saying most people go to school and work in a field that they didn't even study. That's true to some extent but many jobs require a degree no matter what. The world is not the same as it was in 1986 when he was 18. If Josh Duggar was never on tv, there's no way he would be qualified to even work at that hate group in D.C. They need to admit it is tlc, not god, who has given them all that they have. 

Gil and Kelly both have degrees that they don't use, which is why im surprised they encourage their children to even spend their money on clown college. 

What JB doesn't seem to realise is that just because you work in a field different to what you studied doesn't mean you don't use your degree. I have an undergrad MA in English and a one-year MSc. in computing, and I'm a programmer.

The MSc. landed me the job. The MA gave me the critical thinking and communication skills to do the job.

[SassyPants]

Back when Gothard was still in the picture, someone described the difference between Gil/family and JB/family

Gil's Family worships at the altar of Gothard.

JB's Family worships at the altar of JB.

In terms of schooling and working in a field, the Duggars, minus JD, really strike out on both. JB's ideas might hold some weight, IF more of his 10  adult offspring were working in ANY field. No education and no jobs does not make for success and does not substantiate your claims, JB.

[Arix]

3 hours ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Agreed. He has said it so many times in so many different words. I remember him saying most people go to school and work in a field that they didn't even study. That's true to some extent but many jobs require a degree no matter what. The world is not the same as it was in 1986 when he was 18. 

Gil and Kelly both have degrees that they don't use, which is why im surprised they encourage their children to even spend their money on clown college. 

Doesn't Kelly have a special ed degree? I can see how that would be valuable in homeschooling.

[Granwych]

5 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I also think that since JB was able to be successful without a college degree, he probably doesn't see the value of it. 

My father was very anti-education himself, but I think that was due to being his being a poor student.  He was able to work at a financially rewarding job and thought that everyone could do the same.

 

1 minute ago, Arix said:

Doesn't Kelly have a special ed degree? I can see how that would be valuable in homeschooling.

Does (or did) Kelly ever actually teach her children?

[Diana]

42 minutes ago, Granwych said:

My father was very anti-education himself, but I think that was due to being his being a poor student.  He was able to work at a financially rewarding job and thought that everyone could do the same.

 

Does (or did) Kelly ever actually teach her children?

Arent all the kids homeschooled? then at least she had to teach the older ones until they were old enough to be teachers of the youngers themselves.

[Exjw2015deed]

1 hour ago, Arix said:

Doesn't Kelly have a special ed degree? I can see how that would be valuable in homeschooling.

Not that I know of. I thought the mom from the willis family had one. I could be wrong. I think she had a major in chemistry or something. I'll look it up.

[Melissa1977]

5 hours ago, Granwych said:

My father was very anti-education himself, but I think that was due to being his being a poor student.  He was able to work at a financially rewarding job and thought that everyone could do the same.

 

Does (or did) Kelly ever actually teach her children?

I think Kelly did a relatively fine homeschooling with the older children. Of course, when #10 learned to read, she was probably fed up and homeschooling level went down. She has a degree in education and as she didn't spend time with her babies, and blanket trained toddlers, and older girls cleaned the house, she had time enough for homeschooling. 

[VelociRapture]

16 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think Kelly did a relatively fine homeschooling with the older children. Of course, when #10 learned to read, she was probably fed up and homeschooling level went down. She has a degree in education and as she didn't spend time with her babies, and blanket trained toddlers, and older girls cleaned the house, she had time enough for homeschooling. 

Except now she doesn't even do that. Tori homeschools the younger kids. They claim to pay her, but who knows.

[Palimpsest]

23 hours ago, Arix said:

Doesn't Kelly have a special ed degree? I can see how that would be valuable in homeschooling.

Goodness knows.  At least both Gil and Kelly may have degrees in something, went to an accredited college, and have studied chemistry. From the horses' mouths.  

Quote

 

We met at Anderson Junior College (Currently Anderson University) in 1984. We were first introduced by a friend, but really began to form a friendship after we joined a campus ministry team that traveled to churches to sing, testify, and preach. Before long, glances were being exchanged and admiration was growing. It was in chemistry class that sparks began to fly. I was the chemistry lab assistant, so Gil cunningly decided to ask for some extra tutoring after class. I was certainly attracted to his humor and outgoing personality, but most of all, I was fascinated by his desire to love and serve God.

We began dating seriously in the summer of 1986 before transferring to Carson Newman College in Jefferson City, Tennessee. 

 

http://uptv.com/shows/bringing-up-bates/news/gil-and-kelly-jo-bates-on-how-they-fell-in-love/

They don't actually say they were graduated from Carson Newman College with degrees in anything at all.  Perhaps they dropped out. 

If Zach's lack of writing skills are anything to go by, then Kelly wasn't a very good grammar teacher.  He did get through Police Academy.

AFAIK, none of the Bates boys have done any college courses at all.  Or have I missed something?

[imokit]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Goodness knows.  At least both Gil and Kelly may have degrees in something, went to an accredited college, and have studied chemistry. From the horses' mouths.  

http://uptv.com/shows/bringing-up-bates/news/gil-and-kelly-jo-bates-on-how-they-fell-in-love/

They don't actually say they were graduated from Carson Newman College with degrees in anything at all.  Perhaps they dropped out. 

If Zach's lack of writing skills are anything to go by, then Kelly wasn't a very good grammar teacher.  He did get through Police Academy.

AFAIK, none of the Bates boys have done any college courses at all.  Or have I missed something?

They've said they've offered all the children the opportunity to go for a semester and see if they like it.  I think all the older boys (18+) were working by necessity before they turned 18 either on their own or in Gill's tree business and thus have had little reason to want to go.

[formergothardite]

I'm not sure Kelly actually did much teaching, even with the older ones. If you read the old blog, the mornings were spent with memorizing Bible verses and singing hymns(they also spent an hour at night doing this). They didn't start school till 12:45 and apparently some days they went to hand out tracts or sing at nursing homes. 

[BeccaGrim]

23 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Goodness knows.  At least both Gil and Kelly may have degrees in something, went to an accredited college, and have studied chemistry. From the horses' mouths.  

http://uptv.com/shows/bringing-up-bates/news/gil-and-kelly-jo-bates-on-how-they-fell-in-love/

They don't actually say they were graduated from Carson Newman College with degrees in anything at all.  Perhaps they dropped out. 

If Zach's lack of writing skills are anything to go by, then Kelly wasn't a very good grammar teacher.  He did get through Police Academy.

AFAIK, none of the Bates boys have done any college courses at all.  Or have I missed something?

Did I miss where we saw Zach's writing? 

As for the girls and going to school, what else are they going to do? Michaella nannied for years.  But, I think if the option was to stay home all day and see no one but my own family,  homeschool all the kids my parents kept having, and clean the house and/or nanny other people's children and do the same or go to school, I'd go to school.  IMO.  The other thing, is I think Gothard taught that they had to work for themselves.  Gil had, I think, a pretty good job pre-Gothard and then he stopped to do the tree business so he could work for himself.  The boys, who need employment, aren't going to be encouraged to go into careers that A-would mean they have to work for others and B-might put them into interacting with people who would change their mind. Can you imagine Med School?

 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, BeccaGrim said:

Did I miss where we saw Zach's writing? 

You had to have been around when he ran for County Commissioner and Anderson County Mayor.  The websites and Facebook pages have been taken down now but literacy was not a strength. That is putting it mildly.

[BeccaGrim]

28 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

You had to have been around when he ran for County Commissioner and Anderson County Mayor.  The websites and Facebook pages have been taken down now but literacy was not a strength. That is putting it mildly.

Oh boy. Wow.  That's too bad. (Both for him and that I can't see it...)

[faraway]

I doubt any of those fundie parents who homeschool do a good  job. Their focus is always on jesus and not on the worldly knowledge, that's just a necessary evil to them. I haven't heard anything remotely academic sounding from the mouths of any of those kids.

[nolongerIFBx]

8 hours ago, faraway said:

I doubt any of those fundie parents who homeschool do a good  job. Their focus is always on jesus and not on the worldly knowledge, that's just a necessary evil to them. I haven't heard anything remotely academic sounding from the mouths of any of those kids.

My three siblings and I all went on to get accredited degrees from secular universities as well as some grad school work. It isn't fair to judge all homeschoolers, even all fundie homeschoolers, by the grammar of the Bates and the Duggars. And, I see plenty of public schooled adults whose grammar isn't any better.

[Kak]

3 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

 And, I see plenty of public schooled adults whose grammar isn't any better.

I've seen school teachers with pretty poor grammar. 

[faraway]

49 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

My three siblings and I all went on to get accredited degrees from secular universities as well as some grad school work. It isn't fair to judge all homeschoolers, even all fundie homeschoolers, by the grammar of the Bates and the Duggars. And, I see plenty of public schooled adults whose grammar isn't any better.

I specifically referred to "those fundie parents", meaning the people we talk about around here. And I stand by it. If you have a number of children, chances are they will have different interests. Some will be academically more successful than others, some might have other special talents. The Bates kids all fit a certain scheme: wedding in their early/mid twenties, no education past clown college or online community college in Michael's case and babies, babies, babies. They (and many other fundie kids) are deprived from certain opportunities the moment they are born. Erin had to turn down a scholarship. They really don't give a f***. I will change my opinion about their homeschooling the moment there is some real diversity among the children. One becomes a biologist or something. 

The topic has come up here quite a few times and I'd like to point it out one more time: When we snark about bad fundie homeschooling, it's not criticizing homeschooling as a concept. I'm sure some people do an awesome job!

[nolongerIFBx]

1 hour ago, faraway said:

I specifically referred to "those fundie parents", meaning the people we talk about around here. And I stand by it. If you have a number of children, chances are they will have different interests. Some will be academically more successful than others, some might have other special talents. The Bates kids all fit a certain scheme: wedding in their early/mid twenties, no education past clown college or online community college in Michael's case and babies, babies, babies. They (and many other fundie kids) are deprived from certain opportunities the moment they are born. Erin had to turn down a scholarship. They really don't give a f***. I will change my opinion about their homeschooling the moment there is some real diversity among the children. One becomes a biologist or something. 

The topic has come up here quite a few times and I'd like to point it out one more time: When we snark about bad fundie homeschooling, it's not criticizing homeschooling as a concept. I'm sure some people do an awesome job!

My parents were "those fundie parents" and are the people that we talk about around here. We still got a good enough education to go to accredited universities and colleges. It isn't about being fundie or secular. It is about the priority that you give to schooling. I've seen non-religious and fundie people decide that some other interest or event came before schooling and their kids suffered educationally for it, but it wasn't due to their religion or lack thereof.

[jqlgoblue]

3 hours ago, Kak said:

3 hours ago, nolongerIFBx said:

 And, I see plenty of public schooled adults whose grammar isn't any better.

I've seen school teachers with pretty poor grammar. 

My boyfriend says certain phrases with bad grammar and he got an 800 on the verbal SAT. I always knew he was smart b/c he has a PhD in engineering from a top program ... but figured he wasn't so good at grammar. I guess I was wrong! (He did not get 800 on the math part of the SAT fwiw.)

Not that this has anything to do with homeschooling. I do think it can work though I would be supplementing the hell out of certain subjects. Then again, I will also likely be on the boarder of 'tiger mom'... 

[iweartanktops]

5 hours ago, Kak said:

I've seen school teachers with pretty poor grammar. 

Ugh. I hate this. I dated a teacher, and I was looking through his HIGH SCHOOL students' homework, and it looked like it was written by 6 year olds. The grammar and spelling was atrocious. I actually got really pissed off at him for giving those kids "A" grades for just getting the general answer correctly. I think it's a huge disservice to the students. 

/rant

[faraway]

@nolongerIFBx I said nowhere that all secular homeschoolers are good. I didn't even mention them. I agree with you about priorities and in those families (Duggars, Bates', Rodriguez...) education is not a priority. My point is: someone here said they thought Kelly did a good job homeschooling. I disagree. Clearly your parents did something better than those families when you turned to higher education, so they are different to me. I don't even really care about their spelling, but the fact that people get excited when one of them actually finishes jesus-college is kind of sad.