Duggars by the Dozenty!!11!- Part 19 and counting

[EmmieJ]

18 hours ago, calimojo said:

I don't really like Josh much nor Anna for that matter, but I do have empathy for him.  He is damaged and Anna is too weak to protect her own children.  I don't believe that Josh is really a direct danger to her kids, but I think the whole lifestyle is bad for them, and I think that it is likely that Josh will be very unhappy and I don't think he is the type to suffer silently.  I think the life that he and Anna will have is going to be unhappy and the poor kids are going to suffer. 

You are not alone in feeling at least some empathy for Josh.  I agree with your assessment above.  While this fundamentalist belief system may work for a few people, I think it does a great deal of harm to most people who are involved through no choice of their own (the children).  It's sort of ironic to me that Gothard is so worried about the sins of the father being passed onto offspring (which is why he apparently is anti-adoption), when the sins of the father/mother (JB and Michele) have a direct bearing on the actions of their first born child. 

[EmCatlyn]

21 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

They've done studies that show teenage boys on average think about sex/girls,boys etc many times a minute. Just how the brain is wired. I doubt one can 100% repress it unless as @EmCatlyn above noted some people are outliers.  Some are naturally asexual so it wouldn't be an issue. But for the boys who fall in the average end of the spectrum- ones who are very sexual beings at that age- it will take a lot more than self discipline to control it.  They may be able to control actions- not masturbate, not actively fantasize, not pursue girls etc.  But they probably can't really control the physiological stuff- the night emissions, random erections (which can happen to any boy during puberty apparently), sexual dreams or fleeting thoughts/images etc.  There's a point where you just can't fight biology.  Emcatlyn is right about extreme cases of repression but the way jboob and mchelle behave around them, and how sex obsessed their religion is, I'm thinking they think on sex a lot.  I do wonder how they deal with that, and how they merge the cognitive which tells them those thoughts are evil and the primitive which screams SEX! MATE!

I'm thinking they distract themselves a lot, confess a lot, and perhaps fantasize about getting married and finding a girl to court so they can have "righteous fulfillment". 

Jboob must be some kind of stupid if he honestly thinks avoiding looking at knees and shoulders or dancing will prevent "desires being stirred up".  The desires are built in by nature.

Yes, JB is incredibly stupid.   He had desires as a boy. Why does he assume his sons won't?  Or does he think that with enough guilt you can prevent a person from acting on those desires?

The hyper-attention to sexual feelings and behaviors is, ironically, going to have the opposite effect -- instead of turning off sexual thoughts, making these thoughts forbidden shifts more attention to them.

I think in that family, even the girls (who historically have been easier to keep ignorant about their own sexual desire) know about and are aware of their own sexual urges. I can't imagine any of them being, as Anna reportedly was, uninformed about what happens in the marriage bed until a week or so before the wedding.

In the few episodes I have watched in full, the  family environment seems to have a sexual vibe/tension that I have not noticed with in other "religious" large families I have known well enough to observe the dynamics. (Mostly Catholic, but one Lubavitcher).

I think you are right, @quiverofdoubt that the boys (even the ones with atypically low libidos) must spend a lot of time thinking about sex or experiencing sexual desire even if they tell themselves it is something else. (I can imagine their prayers: "Dear Jesus, you know I want to be pure. Please tell Satan to stop stirring my penis to desire that I cannot righteously fulfill.")

There is something very wrong in that family.  Josh was only the symptom.

[quiverofdoubt]

1 minute ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yes, JB is incredibly stupid.   He had desires as a boy. Why does he assume his sons won't?  Or does he think that with enough guilt you can prevent a person from acting on those desires?

The hyper-attention to sexual feelings and behaviors is, ironically, going to have the opposite effect -- instead of turning off sexual thoughts, making these thoughts forbidden shifts more attention to them.

I think in that family, even the girls (who historically have been easier to keep ignorant about their own sexual desire) know about and are aware of their own sexual urges. I can't imagine any of them being, as Anna reportedly was, uninformed about what happens in the marriage bed until a week or so before the wedding.

In the few episodes I have watched in full, the  family environment seems to have a sexual vibe/tension that I have not noticed with in other "religious" large families I have known well enough to observe the dynamics. (Mostly Catholic, but one Lubavitcher).

I think you are right, @quiverofdoubt that the boys (even the ones with atypically low libidos) must spend a lot of time thinking about sex or experiencing sexual desire even if they tell themselves it is something else. (I can imagine their prayers: "Dear Jesus, you know I want to be pure. Please tell Satan to stop stirring my penis to desire that I cannot righteously fulfill.")

There is something very wrong in that family.  Josh was only the symptom.

I was thinking the exact same thing about JB- he was a boy, and he's clearly obsessed with sex as an adult.  unhealthily so. how can he have these insane expectations of his sons? Has he forgotten being 15/16, can he not empathize with his sons and allow them an outlet?

And you are exactly right- the environment is toxic, especially in regards to sex. So much focus on repression emphasizes it and builds it up rather than letting it be a natural, but not huge, part of life. Instead sex is life there- once you're married!

I think there are more symptoms than josh, they are just more subtle or haven't fully reared their heads yet.  For one thing the girls agreeing to marry so young, to people they hardly knew who also weren't ready for marriage- and then getting pregnant out the gate. That's a sign to me that something isn't right.  Girls have desires too.  And as a girl if i had had to wait till marriage to fulfill any of them (even self pleasure) then I would have agreed to a young marriage to just about anyone. We'll see what shakes out with the rest of the kids, but I can't imagine any of them have a healthy attitude in regards to sex, sexuality, pleasure (self and otherwise) and any recreational sex in general.

[BabyBottlePop]

On 5/12/2016 at 3:56 PM, EmCatlyn said:

Anna reportedly was, uninformed about what happens in the marriage bed until a week or so before the wedding.

In the few episodes I have watched in full, the  family environment seems to have a sexual vibe/tension that I have not noticed with in other "religious" large families I have known well enough to observe the dynamics. (Mostly Catholic, but one Lubavitcher).

I think you are right, @quiverofdoubt that the boys (even the ones with atypically low libidos) must spend a lot of time thinking about sex or experiencing sexual desire even if they tell themselves it is something else. (I can imagine their prayers: "Dear Jesus, you know I want to be pure. Please tell Satan to stop stirring my penis to desire that I cannot righteously fulfill.")

There is something very wrong in that family.  Josh was only the symptom.

With the way Michelle and Boob talk blatantly about sex and dry hump on golf courses (and the like) I don't know how anyone in that family couldn't be aware of how babies come to be, espessically before they built their compound.

And it's just like how extreme homophobic people are said to have underlying homosexual feelings. The way these cults focus on sex being bad makes it obvious they are thinking about it all the time!!!!

The first time I learned the way people had sex (accidentally, fifth grade, I opened a children's encyclopedia that I bought at a yard sale. The body parts were illustrated as robots or machinery or some messed up thing like that. I remember the penis was a metal spring-- like, WHY i s that in a KIDS BOOK) 
I was traumatized. I went around wincing as I thought, "My parents had to do that 3 times" (me and my brothers) "Grandma and Grandpa" "Mom Mom and Pop Pop" .... I was so horrified. I cannot imagine those feelings coming on as you are riding to your honeymoon suite.

[quiverofdoubt]

31 minutes ago, BabyBottlePop said:

With the way Michelle and Boob talk blatantly about sex and dry hump on golf courses (and the like) I don't know how anyone in that family couldn't be aware of how babies come to be, espessically before they built their compound.

And it's just like how extreme homophobic people are said to have underlying homosexual feelings. The way these cults focus on sex being bad makes it obvious they are thinking about it all the time!!!!

The first time I learned the way people had sex (accidentally, fifth grade, I opened a children's encyclopedia that I bought at a yard sale. The body parts were illustrated as robots or machinery or some messed up thing like that. I remember the penis was a metal spring-- like, WHY i s that in a KIDS BOOK) 
I was traumatized. I went around wincing as I thought, "My parents had to do that 3 times" (me and my brothers) "Grandma and Grandpa" "Mom Mom and Pop Pop" .... I was so horrified. I cannot imagine those feelings coming on as you are riding to your honeymoon suite.

Not to mention jbob and michelle talking about it on tv and publicly.  I remember on an episode during a lamaze class the teacher mentioned sex can be good before deliver- good for the cervix.  jbob grinned like an idiot and said something about doing it every night.  Plus there's the whole "mom and dad's door is locked....again" thing.  before the tth there was even less privacy. You have to wonder what the kids have seen/heard in that family.  Actually  you don't.  Don't wonder that. 

[EmCatlyn]

32 minutes ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I was thinking the exact same thing about JB- he was a boy, and he's clearly obsessed with sex as an adult.  unhealthily so. how can he have these insane expectations of his sons? Has he forgotten being 15/16, can he not empathize with his sons and allow them an outlet?

And you are exactly right- the environment is toxic, especially in regards to sex. So much focus on repression emphasizes it and builds it up rather than letting it be a natural, but not huge, part of life. Instead sex is life there- once you're married!

I think there are more symptoms than josh, they are just more subtle or haven't fully reared their heads yet.  For one thing the girls agreeing to marry so young, to people they hardly knew who also weren't ready for marriage- and then getting pregnant out the gate. That's a sign to me that something isn't right.  Girls have desires too.  And as a girl if i had had to wait till marriage to fulfill any of them (even self pleasure) then I would have agreed to a young marriage to just about anyone. We'll see what shakes out with the rest of the kids, but I can't imagine any of them have a healthy attitude in regards to sex, sexuality, pleasure (self and otherwise) and any recreational sex in general.

Oh, I didn't mean that Josh was the only symptom.  I was thinking more that he is the symptom that can't be overlooked.

Some time last year there was a Reddit AMA where someone with some connection to ATI was answering questions about how the ATI families have responded to the Gothard and Josh Duggar scandals, and the ATI informant said that there was a lot of denial but because Josh admitted it all publicly they were forced to confront that there was a real problem there.  He also said tjat some ATI families were beginning to reconsider their courtship rules and so forth because of Josh. 

Other families seem to see a cause-effect relationship, so why can't the Duggars? 

Anyway, yeah, I agree.  There are lots of other symptoms.  It is a tragedy, in its own way.

[kjmackin]

3 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Oh, I didn't mean that Josh was the only symptom.  I was thinking more that he is the symptom that can't be overlooked.

Some time last year there was a Reddit AMA where someone with some connection to ATI was answering questions about how the ATI families have responded to the Gothard and Josh Duggar scandals, and the ATI informant said that there was a lot of denial but because Josh admitted it all publicly they were forced to confront that there was a real problem there.  He also said tjat some ATI families were beginning to reconsider their courtship rules and so forth because of Josh. 

Other families seem to see a cause-effect relationship, so why can't the Duggars? 

Anyway, yeah, I agree.  There are lots of other symptoms.  It is a tragedy, in its own way.

Could you link to that AMA? Sounds like it would an interesting read

[EmCatlyn]

19 minutes ago, kjmackin said:

Could you link to that AMA? Sounds like it would an interesting read

I'll see.  But there wasn't much to it.  Mostly the guy said things we already know, like the girls are supposed to do the domestic work and Gotthard discourages higher education because it exposes you to sinful ideas.   People asked him a lot of questions he couldn't or wouldn't answer.  But the statement about some ATI families reconsidering the courtship rules was interesting especially since JB doesn't seem to have reconsidered anything.

[CorruptionInc.]

It is worrying to me that JB sexual attitude means Mullet probably suffers a lot. The fact that he would want to have sex most nights (if not all) and say she didn't want to is so sad because here she is being attacked; and she can't do a damn thing about it because it's what she's "meant" to do.

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

5 minutes ago, CorruptionInc. said:

It is worrying to me that JB sexual attitude means Mullet probably suffers a lot. The fact that he would want to have sex most nights (if not all) and say she didn't want to is so sad because here she is being attacked; and she can't do a damn thing about it because it's what she's "meant" to do.

Yeah to make worse, Michelle preaches this toxic rhetoric to her daughters. No wonder Jana is still unmarried. A life where you have to meet all your husband's sexual needs no matter how you are feeling seems like hell. Granted, living in TTH seems like hell also.  

[CorruptionInc.]

1 minute ago, Eatingintheprayercloset said:

 Granted, living in TTH seems like hell also.  

 

Lesser of two Evils?

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

It is worrying to me that JB sexual attitude means Mullet probably suffers a lot. The fact that he would want to have sex most nights (if not all) and say she didn't want to is so sad because here she is being attacked; and she can't do a damn thing about it because it's what she's "meant" to do.

Yet JB always claimed that he left the number of children up to Michelle.  Since they're not allowed to use BC, it's implied that Michelle had veto power.  Something doesn't add up.

[pamplemousse]

2 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Yet JB always claimed that he left the number of children up to Michelle.  Since they're not allowed to use BC, it's implied that Michelle had veto power.  Something doesn't add up.

I seem to remember that once Michelle was being interviewed and she said that if it were up to her, she wouldn't have had as many children as she did.  Not sure if it was on something like the Today show, on TLC, or somewhere else.  Who knows, maybe I imagined it.  But that wouldn't surprise me.  Didn't she say that after the first miscarriage, she and JB prayed to God to help them love children as much as He loves children?  That tells me that at first, they may not have been crazy about the idea of "leaving (the size of their family) up to God".

I would also all but put money on the possibility that JB had Michelle track her cycles so he would know when she was most fertile.  Then, knowing she was quite likely to get pregnant (thanks to her freaky fertility), and knowing that per the dictates of Gothardism, she wouldn't say no, he would take advantage of it. After all, more children = more status, more arrows in the quiver, and greater proof of his virility.  

I see JB as the puppet master of that family.  IMO, nothing will change as long as he is running the show.  That pisses me off.

[calimojo]

7 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

Not to mention jbob and michelle talking about it on tv and publicly.  I remember on an episode during a lamaze class the teacher mentioned sex can be good before deliver- good for the cervix.  jbob grinned like an idiot and said something about doing it every night.  Plus there's the whole "mom and dad's door is locked....again" thing.  before the tth there was even less privacy. You have to wonder what the kids have seen/heard in that family.  Actually  you don't.  Don't wonder that. 

Well, in that last show of the original series where they all sat down for the interview, it was clear that the kids knew what their parents were doing all the time.  Remember that whole long drawn out section about Jimbob saying "Hey Hey" as a hello but if he said "hey hey hey" it meant he wanted Michelle for sex.  All of the older half of the kids clearly knew this, and even imitated how JB would say this. 

 

As to the comment that JB has made that he leaves the number of kids up to Michelle, I always took that to mean, it was up to her in terms of what her body was capable of, not that she would abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy or use some sort of NFP.     But, and this is important,  Michelle is addicted to having babies.  I see no way in hell that she would ever do anything to avoid being pregnant.  I mean, this woman takes her sweet babies off the breast asap so that her fertility would return.  This is not a woman who would ever refuse the possibility of getting pregnant.  So for JB to say that is a pretty safe statement on his part.

 

And as to JB demanding sex all the time,  what we don't know is how Michelle feels about it.  For all we know, she is a horny little minx in private and JB is the one who can't keep up with her needs.  

 

I think that Josh avoided pregnancy with Anna, either by avoiding sex with her ( while he sought it elsewhere) or by some sort of NFP.  I remember an episode around the time of Jessa's wedding where Anna was practically begging him to let her get pregnant again.  I found it odd at the time, given that we have all be led to believe that they leave it up to God, but of course now, I wonder if they were just not having sex often enough to increase the chances of a pregnancy. 

[Bad Wolf]

The girls used to keep track of M's cycle, which I always thought was strange.

[calimojo]

9 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

The girls used to keep track of M's cycle, which I always thought was strange.

Ugh,  very inappropriate.  I don't think this family has a clue about boundaries. 

[Bad Wolf]

14 minutes ago, calimojo said:

Ugh,  very inappropriate.  I don't think this family has a clue about boundaries. 

And they let the viewing audience know too. 

[sophie10130]

I remember putting two and two together that I could figure out the approximate time that my parents conceived us and it seriously grossed me out at that young age. Sorta like when you first get your period and you start to notice pad and tampon commercials and get really embarrassed.

and that was just me counting backwards 9 months.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, calimojo said:

Well, in that last show of the original series where they all sat down for the interview, it was clear that the kids knew what their parents were doing all the time.  Remember that whole long drawn out section about Jimbob saying "Hey Hey" as a hello but if he said "hey hey hey" it meant he wanted Michelle for sex.  All of the older half of the kids clearly knew this, and even imitated how JB would say this. 

 

As to the comment that JB has made that he leaves the number of kids up to Michelle, I always took that to mean, it was up to her in terms of what her body was capable of, not that she would abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy or use some sort of NFP.     But, and this is important,  Michelle is addicted to having babies.  I see no way in hell that she would ever do anything to avoid being pregnant.  I mean, this woman takes her sweet babies off the breast asap so that her fertility would return.  This is not a woman who would ever refuse the possibility of getting pregnant.  So for JB to say that is a pretty safe statement on his part.

And as to JB demanding sex all the time,  what we don't know is how Michelle feels about it.  For all we know, she is a horny little minx in private and JB is the one who can't keep up with her needs.  

I think that Josh avoided pregnancy with Anna, either by avoiding sex with her ( while he sought it elsewhere) or by some sort of NFP.  I remember an episode around the time of Jessa's wedding where Anna was practically begging him to let her get pregnant again.  I found it odd at the time, given that we have all be led to believe that they leave it up to God, but of course now, I wonder if they were just not having sex often enough to increase the chances of a pregnancy. 

I don't think Michelle always saw her value in life as primarily birthing babies.   I think she gradually got there because it was what got her the attention and approval she craved.   It is possible that Michelle didn't want a lot of kids at first. Certainly she went on the pill for a while when they were first married.  Leaving it up to God wasn't the plan until after the "Caleb" miscarriage. (And isn't it interesting how it was grief over a miscarriage that got her on the quiverful bandwagon?)  

JB is an interesting figure.  He is very controlling, and the ATI/Gothard teachings clearly opened a way for him to have a lot of control.  It isn't just that his wife must be sexually available to him at all times that she isn't having her period. it is that with each child he acquired more status and control.

They are both scary in different ways, but I see her as the victim of accepting Gothard's teachings, while JB has clearly thrived.  

 

[CorruptionInc.]

I remember putting two and two together that I could figure out the approximate time that my parents conceived us and it seriously grossed me out at that young age. Sorta like when you first get your period and you start to notice pad and tampon commercials and get really embarrassed.

and that was just me counting backwards 9 months.

I was born at 42 weeks. I was meant to be born on 15th of November. (I was born on the 29th). When doing counting and numbers it turns out I was conceived on Valentine's Day. I still get annoyed by it haha!

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, sophie10130 said:

I remember putting two and two together that I could figure out the approximate time that my parents conceived us and it seriously grossed me out at that young age. Sorta like when you first get your period and you start to notice pad and tampon commercials and get really embarrassed.

and that was just me counting backwards 9 months.

My friend created an app that did this as part of a programming assignment. It even had a functionality that took preemies into account.

When I realized when I was conceived, I just thought it was funny. My birthday is in September (and I was due a little bit later in the month than when I was born), so I'm a Christmas baby. Makes sense; my parents are Jewish, so they'd have nothing better to do that night.

[HarryPotterFan]

@calimojo WHY FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY WOULD YOU REFER TO THAT WOMAN AS A HORNY LITTLE MINX? There is not enough brain bleach in the world.

  x eleventy million 

[IrishCarrie]

28 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

@calimojo WHY FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY WOULD YOU REFER TO THAT WOMAN AS A HORNY LITTLE MINX? There is not enough brain bleach in the world.

  x eleventy million 

Does that help you any?????

[Fundie Bunny]

I fucking hate you all. I could have spent the rest of my life without realizing I am the result of mom's birthday sex. Seriously, fuck you 

[MadameOvary]

Me: Midsummer conception. Possibly, depending on my mum's cycle, this could well be the first post-wedding ovulation, but guess what? since I'm not a duggar-level sex obsessive, I'm never ever going to ask when they started having sex.
My brother: also midsummer
My sister: new year

I was also a bit eww when I did the math as a teen.