Duggars by the Dozenty!!11!- Part 19 and counting

[ksgranola1]

Found this on FB; from Intouch:

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/josh-duggar-mother-s-day-101773

Of coarse he looks miserable. He knew some flooky w/a smart phone was snapping pics of him. The shame will never end. Maybe he's on a hotline & someone's talking dirty to him. He also might be thinking, "This is not the life I want." Maybe he'll go out for milk & never come back.

[nst]

42 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

Found this on FB; from Intouch:

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/josh-duggar-mother-s-day-101773

Of coarse he looks miserable. He knew some flooky w/a smart phone was snapping pics of him. The shame will never end. Maybe he's on a hotline & someone's talking dirty to him. He also might be thinking, "This is not the life I want." Maybe he'll go out for milk & never come back.

I want him to suffer. The fact that he is in public now is wonderful for all the cameras out there.  Make him look bad. 

keep it coming Josh, go away 

[albanuadh_1]

I wish Josh would 'go out for milk' because I don't believe he is happy at all. He hasn't seemed happy or content since Michael. He was less than enthusiastic about Marcus and Meredith.

He's not meant for this type of marriage with Gothard bullshit. So if he doesn't move away from the pretense of being a Gothardite, then he is going to continue his messed-up ways. Anna and the kids will be dumped one way or the other.

Josh needs to grow a pair and figure out what he truly wants - marriage with kids or the single life.

 

[devoe364]

1 hour ago, albanuadh_1 said:

I wish Josh would 'go out for milk' because I don't believe he is happy at all. He hasn't seemed happy or content since Michael. He was less than enthusiastic about Marcus and Meredith.

He's not meant for this type of marriage with Gothard bullshit. So if he doesn't move away from the pretense of being a Gothardite, then he is going to continue his messed-up ways. Anna and the kids will be dumped one way or the other.

Josh needs to grow a pair and figure out what he truly wants - marriage with kids or the single life.

 

I think Josh would have been perfectly happy married.

IF....

If he had been allowed to date.

If he had been allowed to go to high school or at least some kind of clown college.

If he had been allowed to have pre-marital sex.

If he had been able to choose his own wife.

If he was older when he was married.

With none of that having happened, Josh is so messed up, I doubt he will be able to leave. 

[EmmieJ]

Josh is just one example of the damage that Gothardism and other extremist religions can cause.  I don't know if there is any way to positively say that it was his upbringing that led to the molestation -- or if he might have had that lying within him no matter what.  But the belief system followed by his parents exacerbated the ugly situation.  Their solution:  marry him off to the first possible Gothardite girl. 

Turns out that being given a compliant young wife, a modest yet decent home probably rent-free, a job at your father's car lot with no set hours and no chance you'll be fired, face time on tv, and lots of fattening food still didn't fill the void inside him. 

He's got no real education, no particular job skills beyond selling used cars, and more importantly, doesn't seem to have real fire and drive to accomplish anything.  (Probably that was "trained" right out of him.)  So yes, I think he's stuck in a life that he doesn't particularly like, married to a wife he isn't passionately in love with, father to four kids that he loves yet probably finds burdensome in terms of how he'll support them,

[BabyBottlePop]

The Duggars have money, but how much? I ask because the money JB has is a lot less when you split it between 19+ kids, spouses, and grandchildren. If JB wasn't so obsessed with control while also clipping his children's wings from the get go, he might do alright because he wouldn't be supporting his adult children as well as his minor ones. But the way they waste money! There's no sign to me they have changed their spending habits since the scandal. I wonder if JB is in denial. 

JB's real estate, the show, magazine covers, perhaps donations from leghumpers... I don't think their family can continue like this. Even if the scandals hadn't happened, did JB really think the show would last forever? Does he have investments somewhere? 

If there is a thread about this already I apologize.

Mods, I hit enter and it looks like I duplicated my post while trying to correct my misspelling of "situation". Could someone please merge this topic, please?

[choralcrusader8613]

49 minutes ago, BabyBottlePop said:

The Duggars have money, but how much? I ask because the money JB has is a lot less when you split it between 19+ kids, spouses, and grandchildren. If JB wasn't so obsessed with control while also clipping his children's wings from the get go, he might do alright because he wouldn't be supporting his adult children as well as his minor ones. But the way they waste money! There's no sign to me they have changed their spending habits since the scandal. I wonder if JB is in denial. 

JB's real estate, the show, magazine covers, perhaps donations from leghumpers... I don't think their family can continue like this. Even if the scandals hadn't happened, did JB really think the show would last forever? Does he have investments somewhere? 

If there is a thread about this already I apologize.

Mods, I hit enter and it looks like I duplicated my post while trying to correct my misspelling of "situation". Could someone please merge this topic, please?

Check this tag for some more info on the Duggars' money flow (keep in mind some of this is a good bit before the scandals):

http://www.freejinger.org/tags/buy%20used%20save%20the%20difference/

Hope this helps!

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, BabyBottlePop said:

The Duggars have money, but how much? I ask because the money JB has is a lot less when you split it between 19+ kids, spouses, and grandchildren. If JB wasn't so obsessed with control while also clipping his children's wings from the get go, he might do alright because he wouldn't be supporting his adult children as well as his minor ones. But the way they waste money! There's no sign to me they have changed their spending habits since the scandal. I wonder if JB is in denial. 

JB's real estate, the show, magazine covers, perhaps donations from leghumpers... I don't think their family can continue like this. Even if the scandals hadn't happened, did JB really think the show would last forever? Does he have investments somewhere? 

If there is a thread about this already I apologize.

Mods, I hit enter and it looks like I duplicated my post while trying to correct my misspelling of "situation". Could someone please merge this topic, please?

Honestly, I think JB is so narcissistic that he probably thinks that there will still be a show when Josie is ready to court. Given how much the restaurant that hosted to the " girls' retreat" was trashed on social media, the Duggars aren't going to be able to get the speaking gigs they once had. They can speak at Gothard events, but with the way ATI/IBLP is losing member, the group may not be around in a few years. JB's need to control his children and their spouses mean that household expenses keep increasing because no one is actually leaving the nest. Plus, there are expenses from disposable plates, gas guzzling cars, and re-education boot camps and retreats. The Duggars may be pretty comfortable now, but their lifestyle is not sustainable long-term. Even hardcore leghumpers think that Counting On was a bore with no payback, and fewer people want to be associated with the family.

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, devoe364 said:

I think Josh would have been perfectly happy married.

IF....

If he had been allowed to date.

If he had been allowed to go to high school or at least some kind of clown college.

If he had been allowed to have pre-marital sex.

If he had been able to choose his own wife.

If he was older when he was married.

With none of that having happened, Josh is so messed up, I doubt he will be able to leave. 

If he could use birth control.

[BabyBottlePop]

@Cleopatra7 that is exactly what I mean! You did a better job of explaining my question than I did.   Jim Bob is creating a pyramid scheme of sorts, with his children and grandchildren in my opinion. He makes money off them, while they learn/do nothing to become a real adult. 

Control must be one sweet drug, because if I had to go through the stress of raising a truckload of children on one budget (and it was all on me, because my spouse couldn't work due to religious reasons) *eyeroll* and then I came into money, I wouldn't be so quick to throw money at each and every thing I wanted. I think I would worry one day i would be back where I started. Is it really that easy to go from counting coupons to throwing money away?

[calimojo]

I might be the only one on here, but I actually feel sorry for Josh.  He is bearing the sins for the whole family.  JB and M messed up.  They chose to follow this ridiculous path and to do it in a very public way.  They sacrificed the individual needs of their children to morph them into a full unit. 

 

Josh did terrible things.  He needed real and sincere help.  I imagine that long before the molestations happened, Josh had issues with his siblings.  As the oldest, he may have tried to control them to mimic his father.  As was said above,  Josh may have had these inclinations in him all along, but the way he was raised is responsible for nurturing that darkness and forcing it to come out.    As to his actions as an adult,  well, I think it is a continuation of his sexual repression and confusion and misunderstanding that he has had since childhood.  I don't think the 'treatment' he had is going to have any lasting effect.  

 

I don't really like Josh much nor Anna for that matter, but I do have empathy for him.  He is damaged and Anna is too weak to protect her own children.  I don't believe that Josh is really a direct danger to her kids, but I think the whole lifestyle is bad for them, and I think that it is likely that Josh will be very unhappy and I don't think he is the type to suffer silently.  I think the life that he and Anna will have is going to be unhappy and the poor kids are going to suffer. 

[SassyPants]

9 minutes ago, BabyBottlePop said:

@Cleopatra7 that is exactly what I mean! You did a better job of explaining my question than I did.   Jim Bob is creating a pyramid scheme of sorts, with his children and grandchildren in my opinion. He makes money off them, while they learn/do nothing to become a real adult. 

Control must be one sweet drug, because if I had to go through the stress of raising a truckload of children on one budget (and it was all on me, because my spouse couldn't work due to religious reasons) *eyeroll* and then I came into money, I wouldn't be so quick to throw money at each and every thing I wanted. I think I would worry one day i would be back where I started. Is it really that easy to go from counting coupons to throwing money away?

 

And the kids will be the biggest losers (they already have been) and not the parents. JB and M can cut those adult families off at any time- and that might eventually become a reality.

If every one of those kids has a spouse plus 5 kids, that's an additional 114 people for JB and M to support. No way does JB have that kind of dough for long term survival.

Someone (lots of someones) needs to get a real education, skills and jobs-

In this regard, the Bates have done a much better job with their adult kids, thus far-

[anotherone]

1 minute ago, calimojo said:

but I think the whole lifestyle is bad for them, and I think that it is likely that Josh will be very unhappy and I don't think he is the type to suffer silently.  I think the life that he and Anna will have is going to be unhappy and the poor kids are going to suffer. 

Im with you on this. I do feel bad for him, even as i believe he should be held accountable.

[calimojo]

Oh yes, he should be held accountable.  His parents should be held accountable for much of it as well.  It smokes me that they are really not being held accountable by most people.

 

Josh did apparently go to his parents for help with the first round of molestations.  He knew he was doing wrong, and he tried to get some help.  Well we all know how that turned out.    The affairs, porn use, and perhaps even the abuse of the porn star are all Josh's to be accountable for. 

 

And I hate that josh has sat in the background while his sisters and wife were put on the spot over his sins.  Again, though that was probably a decision made by JB and M, than it was by Josh. 

[BabyBottlePop]

Just checked Facebook and this was a suggested post, I guess cause I recently followed Pickles...

i guess TLC is looking for some new families!

[albanuadh_1]

And as far as Josh on the phone during the meal, well, that says a lot to me. He's been back about 2 months and already he is bored with family. Even if he was pretending to be on the phone to look busy, it's disrespectful.

To me, Josh is empty. He enjoyed being #1 son, being waited on, kowtowed to, and the camera. That's it. When the applause goes, who is he?

Marriage and kids don't make him happy and I have the feeling that even if he could have all the women he wanted, in the end, he still wouldn't be happy.

[EmCatlyn]

39 minutes ago, calimojo said:

I might be the only one on here, but I actually feel sorry for Josh.  He is bearing the sins for the whole family.  JB and M messed up.  They chose to follow this ridiculous path and to do it in a very public way.  They sacrificed the individual needs of their children to morph them into a full unit. 

Josh did terrible things.  He needed real and sincere help.  I imagine that long before the molestations happened, Josh had issues with his siblings.  As the oldest, he may have tried to control them to mimic his father.  As was said above,  Josh may have had these inclinations in him all along, but the way he was raised is responsible for nurturing that darkness and forcing it to come out.    As to his actions as an adult,  well, I think it is a continuation of his sexual repression and confusion and misunderstanding that he has had since childhood.  I don't think the 'treatment' he had is going to have any lasting effect.  

I don't really like Josh much nor Anna for that matter, but I do have empathy for him.  He is damaged and Anna is too weak to protect her own children.  I don't believe that Josh is really a direct danger to her kids, but I think the whole lifestyle is bad for them, and I think that it is likely that Josh will be very unhappy and I don't think he is the type to suffer silently.  I think the life that he and Anna will have is going to be unhappy and the poor kids are going to suffer. 

I too feel sorry for Josh.  I feel sorry for all the Duggar kids, but Josh, before he victimized others, was his parents' first victim.

When you suppress normal, healthy impulses, the result is unhealthy and even perverted behavior.  

Not all adolescents who molest younger children do it because their parents have denied them other sexual outlets.  And not all adolescents whose parents repress them sexually end up molesting younger children.  

But in Josh's case, the combination of JB's subtle sexual boasting, Gothardite teachings about sexual temptation, his own adolescent desire and curiosity, etc. plus narrow quarters and a sense of superiority and entitlement due to being the first born son, all resulted in not just inappropriate but criminal behavior.  

His parents' response to the molestations, as we all agree, only made things worse. And when in the fullness of time, as an adult, he was tempted to watch porn, have affairs, etc. he had no individual moral sense, only the fear of punishment from the God who forgives everything if you are repentant enough. (When you think about it, Duggar theology sees God as the ultimate enabling parent who may decide to stop enabling and "break" you one day, only to compassionately let you come under His protection again and restart the cycle after you repent enough.)

We often remark that Josh has not been sufficiently punished for the molestations. And that is true.

But neither have JB and Michelle been punished for the many ways in which they have abused their children beginning but unfortunately not ending with Josh.

[anotherone]

11 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

But neither have JB and Michelle been punished for the many ways in which they have abused their children beginning but unfortunately not ending with Josh.

So what do you think is going on with the other boys?  Are they still forbidding them to think about girls or to, um, spend too much time in the shower?  I just wonder how it really works in that house.  A bunch of pre-teen boys, told not to think about, look at, desire, females? Or even themselves?  Do they all have this superhuman self control?  If Josh cracked, as others I've read about on recoveringgrace, who's next?  Could they all really be so disciplined?  Personally I don't believe it.  But don't you kind of wonder how they're handling it, like do some of them confide in each other or find ways to "cheat."

[gustava]

22 minutes ago, anotherone said:

So what do you think is going on with the other boys?  Are they still forbidding them to think about girls or to, um, spend too much time in the shower?  I just wonder how it really works in that house.  A bunch of pre-teen boys, told not to think about, look at, desire, females? Or even themselves?  Do they all have this superhuman self control?  If Josh cracked, as others I've read about on recoveringgrace, who's next?  Could they all really be so disciplined?  Personally I don't believe it.  But don't you kind of wonder how they're handling it, like do some of them confide in each other or find ways to "cheat."

I'm guessing they ask the Arndt manboys for advice.

[devoe364]

1 hour ago, anotherone said:

So what do you think is going on with the other boys?  Are they still forbidding them to think about girls or to, um, spend too much time in the shower?  I just wonder how it really works in that house.  A bunch of pre-teen boys, told not to think about, look at, desire, females? Or even themselves?  Do they all have this superhuman self control?  If Josh cracked, as others I've read about on recoveringgrace, who's next?  Could they all really be so disciplined?  Personally I don't believe it.  But don't you kind of wonder how they're handling it, like do some of them confide in each other or find ways to "cheat."

Jim Bob and Michelle have fostered a culture with their children where accountibility is everything. And by accountability, I mean tattling. It would not surprise me at all if the children weren't rewarded for tattling, and with how favoured Jill is by her father, it wouldn't surprise me if she wasn't the worst of the bunch. 

[LadyCrow1313]

Sorry for the topic interruption, but I didn't know where else to put it & didn't think it warranted its own thread.

I saw an odd thing online earlier. I was on a site that showed weird historical pictures, & it had ads @ the bottom of the page (like most pages will). One of the things I saw was a pic of JB & Michelle, & the heading stated something along the lines of "10 things about the Duggars that will make your skin crawl". I was on automatic page speedthru, so it didn't register (until I'd gone past it) that it'd be something I'd want to look @.

Haven't seen it since then, of course, but I'll check it out next time I see it. Anyone else see this?

[Mothership]

2 hours ago, LadyCrow1313 said:

Sorry for the topic interruption, but I didn't know where else to put it & didn't think it warranted its own thread.

I saw an odd thing online earlier. I was on a site that showed weird historical pictures, & it had ads @ the bottom of the page (like most pages will). One of the things I saw was a pic of JB & Michelle, & the heading stated something along the lines of "10 things about the Duggars that will make your skin crawl". I was on automatic page speedthru, so it didn't register (until I'd gone past it) that it'd be something I'd want to look @.

Haven't seen it since then, of course, but I'll check it out next time I see it. Anyone else see this?

I've seen this--nothing new.  It's the usual stuff about frumpers and modesty swimwear and courting.  "Skin crawl" is click-bait.  I don't even think that it had the molestation scandal on there, but it might have been updated by now to include that and AM.

[MoonFace]

I watched an episode of the Willis Clan.     Couldn't help but think about the differences between the two families. 

The consider themselves conservative.    The kids were all home schooled - but how much more articulate the Willis kids are compared to the Duggers.    

Didn't notice any sentences with, "like" tossed in 3-4 times.   

The father did lead a discussion and you can see that although he has an idea how he'd like things to go he realizes that his kids have ideas of their own on how they might want their lives to go.   What a big difference.   

Are they so normal compared the the Duggars.    

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, anotherone said:

So what do you think is going on with the other boys?  Are they still forbidding them to think about girls or to, um, spend too much time in the shower?  I just wonder how it really works in that house.  A bunch of pre-teen boys, told not to think about, look at, desire, females? Or even themselves?  Do they all have this superhuman self control?  If Josh cracked, as others I've read about on recoveringgrace, who's next?  Could they all really be so disciplined?  Personally I don't believe it.  But don't you kind of wonder how they're handling it, like do some of them confide in each other or find ways to "cheat."

Individuals respond differently to repression.  I think some of them may act on sexual urges by masturbating in secret.  Then they feel guilty, repent, maybe tell JB who tells them they need to pray more and not think of girls.  Since that's pretty impossible, they "sin" again. But it isn't the end of the world.  Remember that if you repent, all is well, and you can repent as often as necessary.  They may feel guilty and think that they are "bad" all the time, but they are not driven to molest anyone.  

Others may find it easier to avoid masturbation but have a lot of nocturnal emissions.   I actually knew a man (from an ordinary secular family in the northeast) who didn't think of masturbating until after he had had his first sexual experience at age 18.  As he put it, the girl he was with did "nice things" to his penis, and he decided to try doing the same things himself. He had enjoyed seeing sexy women and Playboy centerfolds but . . . apparently he never thought of pleasuring himself. (I met him a good six years after this, and he still was not very imaginative, but a quick learner about his own pleasure.)  

Desire hits different people in different ways.  Sometimes, if you are repressed enough, you may not even recognize it as desire.  It may lead to activity in approved things ("sublimating") or it may lie dormant.  A lot depends on the individual.  

Then too, although the Duggars promote tattling and spying on each other, two brothers who are close may cover for each other.  I have known siblings to keep really important secrets while tattling on the less important ones.

[quiverofdoubt]

5 hours ago, anotherone said:

So what do you think is going on with the other boys?  Are they still forbidding them to think about girls or to, um, spend too much time in the shower?  I just wonder how it really works in that house.  A bunch of pre-teen boys, told not to think about, look at, desire, females? Or even themselves?  Do they all have this superhuman self control?  If Josh cracked, as others I've read about on recoveringgrace, who's next?  Could they all really be so disciplined?  Personally I don't believe it.  But don't you kind of wonder how they're handling it, like do some of them confide in each other or find ways to "cheat."

They've done studies that show teenage boys on average think about sex/girls,boys etc many times a minute. Just how the brain is wired. I doubt one can 100% repress it unless as @EmCatlyn above noted some people are outliers.  Some are naturally asexual so it wouldn't be an issue. But for the boys who fall in the average end of the spectrum- ones who are very sexual beings at that age- it will take a lot more than self discipline to control it.  They may be able to control actions- not masturbate, not actively fantasize, not pursue girls etc.  But they probably can't really control the physiological stuff- the night emissions, random erections (which can happen to any boy during puberty apparently), sexual dreams or fleeting thoughts/images etc.  There's a point where you just can't fight biology.  Emcatlyn is right about extreme cases of repression but the way jboob and mchelle behave around them, and how sex obsessed their religion is, I'm thinking they think on sex a lot.  I do wonder how they deal with that, and how they merge the cognitive which tells them those thoughts are evil and the primitive which screams SEX! MATE!

I'm thinking they distract themselves a lot, confess a lot, and perhaps fantasize about getting married and finding a girl to court so they can have "righteous fulfillment". 

Jboob must be some kind of stupid if he honestly thinks avoiding looking at knees and shoulders or dancing will prevent "desires being stirred up".  The desires are built in by nature.