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samurai_sarah

Duggars by the Dozenty!!11!- Part 19 and counting

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CoveredInBees

Hurrah!! 19 threads and counting :) 

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Handmaiden of Dog
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My great-grandmother birthed 17 singles in a 4 room house with no running water or electricity.  All live births.  My grandfather, the oldest left school around the 6th grade to help on  the farm.  Everyone pitched in, with milking, hoeing, planting, drawing water, chopping wood, child care.  They were never hungry, but they worked hard.  When they got old enough, they left.  I doubt my great grandmother had scheduling tools.

Michelle could have been a better mother. 

Gustava,  My Great-grandmother had 14 kids an a farm and I have no idea how well she handled it and I would be willing to bet neither do you.  By your own account the oldest left school at 6th grade to help out.  Here is what my best guess is, I think my ancestors (and probably yours) had few items of clothing and the kids probably did not all have shoes.  I'm guessing their idea of cleanliness was far from modern with family members bathing in tin baths once a week at most.  I think they had little in entertainment, went to bed at sundown, got up before sunrise and aside from school hours every single member worked their asses off during every hour god gave them.  Trying to compare that lifestyle to the Duggar lifestyle is like comparing apple to oranges. Furthermore you seem to suggest that your great-grandmother was a superior mother because all of her children left home.  Maybe in our eyes that is important but I don't think Michelle believes the same.

My original point was that no mother with that many children could possibly give all of her children the individual care and attention that modern child-raising requires.  Michelle had two problems: she had too many children AND she followed the dictates of Gothard's  cult.  I think she was a bad mother because of those two things, however (and it is a big however) I think Jana is brainwashed to believe that Gothard's way is the right way which would mean that Michelle did everything right.

Edited by Handmaiden of Dog

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gustava
31 minutes ago, Handmaiden of Dog said:

Gustava,  My Great-grandmother had 14 kids an a farm and I have no idea how well she handled it and I would be willing to bet neither do you.  By your own account the oldest left school at 6th grade to help out.  Here is what my best guess is, I think my ancestors (and probably yours) had few items of clothing and the kids probably did not all have shoes.  I'm guessing their idea of cleanliness was far from modern with family members bathing in tin baths once a week at most.  I think they had little in entertainment, went to bed at sundown, got up before sunrise and aside from school hours every single member worked their asses off during every hour god gave them.  Trying to compare that lifestyle to the Duggar lifestyle is like comparing apple to oranges. Furthermore you seem to suggest that your great-grandmother was a superior mother because all of her children left home.  Maybe in our eyes that is important but I don't think Michelle believes the same.

My original point was that no mother with that many children could possibly give all of her children the individual care and attention that modern child-raising requires.  Michelle had two problems: she had too many children AND she followed the dictates of Gothard's  cult.  I think she was a bad mother because of those two things, however (and it is a big however) I think Jana is brainwashed to believe that Gothard's way is the right way which would mean that Michelle did everything right.

OK

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Wenny

husband is 1 of 8 and he says it was like Lord of the flies.

I think that the kids are trapped in that they can't say anything demeaning about their family because of the brand. They can't complain that their mom talks to much or mutters, their brother's wife is a know it all. I am not saying denouncing the family but light ribbing. It sucks and is kind of sad. 

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apandaaries

This is a reference from the previous thread, with the anti-masturbation cross/papoose contraption.  I know of an extremely religious family which used to tie up the children's hands at night to prevent any touching or potential masturbation.  AFAIK, the next generation did not repeat the behavior of tying up children at night, but those kids were still pretty f'ed in the head about normal sexual interactions.  FAR too much guilt was associated with normal human desire.  What was most disturbing was how easily these sexual fears and worries were passed onto the next generation.

That said, I wonder how else Josh's actions reverberated through the Duggar household.  What other restrictions were put in effect that weren't shared onscreen?  How did all the kids internalize the religion's demonization of all sex outside of marriage, but reverence for sex within the bonds of marriage?  No one need speculate too much online, but it can be very interesting to think about how horrifically Gothard (and the IFB)'s dictates  messed up those kids.  

Quick book recommendation (mentioned on another thread as well, but Duggar threads move fast): I Fired God, by Jocelyn Zichterman. She was raised IFB with an extraordinarily abusive father. She went to Bob Jones U and refers to a lot of concepts familiar to Duggar-viewers.  Really, really disturbing, and also incredibly fascinating. 

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Meh
Gobsmacked

I worry about the safety aspects of tying up children's hands at night.

Apart from the obvious abuse, how would those children have survived a house fire?

Were they mistreated for bed wetting? They wouldn't have been able visit the loo.

Lots if questions.

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apandaaries
5 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

I worry about the safety aspects of tying up children's hands at night.

Apart from the obvious abuse, how would those children have survived a house fire?

Were they mistreated for bed wetting? They wouldn't have been able visit the loo.

Lots if questions.

Me too!  But it was my friend's ex-boyfriend, so I only learned what she shared.  Doesn't sound safe or healthy for a million reasons.  For reference, that family was raising kids in the 50s and 60s, and I knew the next generation. The friend's BF hadn't been tied up, but still showed some mental scars and a LOT of guilt about anything related to sex and sexuality. 

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ksgranola1

This is how rapists and murderers are spawned. You screw up their tiny little heads.

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EmCatlyn
4 hours ago, Gobsmacked said:

I worry about the safety aspects of tying up children's hands at night.

Apart from the obvious abuse, how would those children have survived a house fire?

Were they mistreated for bed wetting? They wouldn't have been able visit the loo.

Lots if questions.

Another danger of tying kids' hands is  cutting off circulation.  Even if the hands are not tied tightly to start with, a shift of position may pull at the ties or the limbs may swell or anything may happen--with potentially tragic results.

Many years ago my mom told me a story of a father who tied up his little girl's hands as punishment for some trivial offense and the little girl's hands got gangrene and had to be amputated.  (This would have been in the countryside in a Latin American country back in the 50's I think.)  Anyway, the whole thing was  horrible tragedy.  At some point after the amputation, the little girl apparently begged her father to give her back her hands, that she promised to be good.   The father couldn't handle the guilt.  He went and shot himself.

Speaking of children being tied up, in Mommie Dearest, Christina Crawford tells of her brother being somehow buckled or locked into his bed so he couldn't get up at night. This would have been in the 1940's.  The contraption was apparently sold to prevent kids from wandering around at night.  In a fire, they would have been killed.

  

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Bad Wolf

My great niece once put a rubber band around her wrist. Fortunately, her parents checked on her before they went to bed and saw it, otherwise she would have lost her hand.

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Kittikatz

My mother was tied to her bed when he was little to stop her kicking/tossing around in her sleep. Apparently, my grandmother somehow found this embarrassing when guests came over and had to spend the night, so she would somehow truss my mother up in the bed every night in order to break her of this habit. Don't know how long it went on, but even as an adult, mother never moved around in her sleep. She's lucky she wasn't severley injured or that the house didnt burn down. As it was, her not repositioning at night wound up causing her some issues with her back...

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Apricot
7 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

My great niece once put a rubber band around her wrist. Fortunately, her parents checked on her before they went to bed and saw it, otherwise she would have lost her hand.

My daughter did this once.  I went up to bed about 10pm and checked her and her hand had ballooned in size and gone white.  It was fine by the morning but I dread to think if I hadn't have checked.  It's part of my nightly routine to check wrists now!

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Wenny
3 hours ago, Apricot said:

My daughter did this once.  I went up to bed about 10pm and checked her and her hand had ballooned in size and gone white.  It was fine by the morning but I dread to think if I hadn't have checked.  It's part of my nightly routine to check wrists now!

Dude. Two years old  are sneaky. My daughter did that but on her ankle. We took her to the ER just to be safe. 

 

Oh and May the 4th be with yall. 

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Screamapillar

I read an article awhile back about babies getting hairs twisted so tightly around their little toes that circulation gets cut off. So now that is my weird, irrational parenting fear. I have a lot of hair!

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Chickenbutt
31 minutes ago, Screamapillar said:

I read an article awhile back about babies getting hairs twisted so tightly around their little toes that circulation gets cut off. So now that is my weird, irrational parenting fear. I have a lot of hair!

 

31 minutes ago, Screamapillar said:

I read an article awhile back about babies getting hairs twisted so tightly around their little toes that circulation gets cut off. So now that is my weird, irrational parenting fear. I have a lot of hair!

And a little penis....if you have a boy, be sure to check there too.

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IReallyAmHopewell
23 hours ago, amandaaries said:

Me too!  But it was my friend's ex-boyfriend, so I only learned what she shared.  Doesn't sound safe or healthy for a million reasons.  For reference, that family was raising kids in the 50s and 60s, and I knew the next generation. The friend's BF hadn't been tied up, but still showed some mental scars and a LOT of guilt about anything related to sex and sexuality. 

Back before WWII it was fairly common to prevent masturbation by tying hands.

Bedwetting raises an interesting point. I recall in the episode where the Duggars first go to the Bates Kelly is assigning chores and mentions that "one of the little boys had an accident" so there would be bedding to change and wash. Also, in another episode Jackson is show putting underware on his head after he wet himself out playing. Jchelle clearly saw it as laziness (which, honestly, it probably was--if the cameras weren't there he'd likely have peed outside and never thought twice about it like lots of little guys). She said something like little ones don't want to stop what they are doing that is fun to go to the bathroom. Clearly this is disobedience since God made us to "know when to go" I guess.....

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Depressed
choralcrusader8613
1 hour ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

She said something like little ones don't want to stop what they are doing that is fun to go to the bathroom. Clearly this is disobedience since God made us to "know when to go" I guess.....

She straight up compares it to the Gothard explanation of self-control in their first book (responding to the initial promptings of God's spirit). While I kinda understand where she's going with it, forgetting to go to the bathroom and having self-control in your morality are not the same thing, and a kid young enough for potty training isn't going to make that connection.

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Flossie
20 hours ago, Screamapillar said:

I read an article awhile back about babies getting hairs twisted so tightly around their little toes that circulation gets cut off. So now that is my weird, irrational parenting fear. I have a lot of hair!

I used to live near a woman who had long hair, and she was glad her first baby was a girl.  She said that a friend of hers had a baby boy, and one of her friends long hairs got twisted around his tiny penis in that area just under the glans (head).  I don't know how she missed it, but she noticed that something was wrong when the head turned red, swollen, and hot.  The doctor said he'd seen this before, found the hair, and used tweezers to unwind it from the penis.  The doctor said that it could have been much worse and gave her an antibiotic ointment for the wound.  Baby recovered nicely and the poor mom went from long hair to a short bob soon after.

I don't know, do you think that could really happen?

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Apricot
21 hours ago, Screamapillar said:

I read an article awhile back about babies getting hairs twisted so tightly around their little toes that circulation gets cut off. So now that is my weird, irrational parenting fear. I have a lot of hair!

I risk sounding like I have personal experience with every single anecdote on this thread but one of my hairs got wrapped around my little girls toe too.  It was so thin you could barely see it (I only noticed because her one toe was redder than all the others) but thankfully it had not been on there too long and wasn't overly tight meaning although her toe was quite red once we got it off it went back to normal really quickly. 

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Cleopatra7
15 hours ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

She straight up compares it to the Gothard explanation of self-control in their first book (responding to the initial promptings of God's spirit). While I kinda understand where she's going with it, forgetting to go to the bathroom and having self-control in your morality are not the same thing, and a kid young enough for potty training isn't going to make that connection.

A disturbing number of reported child abuse cases happen in the context of a parent losing their temper during a potty training accident. It's bad enough when such things happen to garden variety crummy parents, but it's even more shocking that Gothardism (and probably Pearlism and variants of Calvinism) would interpret normal accidents as a sign of "rebellion" or "sin."

Edited by Cleopatra7

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devoe364
On 5/3/2016 at 2:54 PM, amandaaries said:

That said, I wonder how else Josh's actions reverberated through the Duggar household.  What other restrictions were put in effect that weren't shared onscreen?  How did all the kids internalize the religion's demonization of all sex outside of marriage, but reverence for sex within the bonds of marriage?  No one need speculate too much online, but it can be very interesting to think about how horrifically Gothard (and the IFB)'s dictates  messed up those kids. 

I have to wonder a lot about this one. I imagine the little ones were kept in the dark as much as possible, but I am sure that Jim Bob and Michelle put in new restrictions.

As for the older ones, I imagine even more emphasis was put on accountability partners and I have to wonder if Michelle and Jim Bob aren't going to start getting anxious to marry more of the older ones off as quickly as possible - especially if they, like Jill share their desire for, well sex. 

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anotherone
13 minutes ago, devoe364 said:

I have to wonder a lot about this one. I imagine the little ones were kept in the dark as much as possible, but I am sure that Jim Bob and Michelle put in new restrictions.

As for the older ones, I imagine even more emphasis was put on accountability partners and I have to wonder if Michelle and Jim Bob aren't going to start getting anxious to marry more of the older ones off as quickly as possible - especially if they, like Jill share their desire for, well sex. 

But the older ones have been through like, what, 10+ years of sexual maturity already.  How could you go that long just longing for a hug or touch from a boyfriend or girlfriend.  It's not just about keeping away from sexual touch, but how horrible to never have any touch at all, no guy smoothing your hair or just having his arm around you.  That seems like horrible punishment for being born a Gothard.  And then knowing one day you will just have to forget all the alone-ness you got used to, and suddenly dive right into sex in just one day and be expected to be touching, handholding, being available, at all times.

 

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Chickenbutt
3 hours ago, Flossie said:

I used to live near a woman who had long hair, and she was glad her first baby was a girl.  She said that a friend of hers had a baby boy, and one of her friends long hairs got twisted around his tiny penis in that area just under the glans (head).  I don't know how she missed it, but she noticed that something was wrong when the head turned red, swollen, and hot.  The doctor said he'd seen this before, found the hair, and used tweezers to unwind it from the penis.  The doctor said that it could have been much worse and gave her an antibiotic ointment for the wound.  Baby recovered nicely and the poor mom went from long hair to a short bob soon after.

I don't know, do you think that could really happen?

Yes it really happens.

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SassyPants
2 hours ago, anotherone said:

But the older ones have been through like, what, 10+ years of sexual maturity already.  How could you go that long just longing for a hug or touch from a boyfriend or girlfriend.  It's not just about keeping away from sexual touch, but how horrible to never have any touch at all, no guy smoothing your hair or just having his arm around you.  That seems like horrible punishment for being born a Gothard.  And then knowing one day you will just have to forget all the alone-ness you got used to, and suddenly dive right into sex in just one day and be expected to be touching, handholding, being available, at all times.

 

Let's put the physical aside just for a moment. These adults are not even allowed to have private conversations with people of the opposite sex. From no private conversations to sexual intercourse all in 1 afternoon???? What a mind screw.

I wonder how much therapy these folks will eventually need.

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