Jill, Derick and Israel- Part 15

[Cleopatra7]

5 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

I was thinking along the same lines.  I actually prefer my guy to be clean shaven, but I am enjoying how different Derick looks than his FIL, and his brothers-in-law.  It's not just his beard that is long and shaggy, so is his hair.  I think his hair looks fine and I too would get a giggle out of seeing him grow it even longer and wear it in a pony tail (or even better, a man bun!). 

Since Derrick is rocking the gospel bum look, maybe Jill will become a more "Jesus people" type Christian, still pretty fundie, but with a more hippie-ish aesthetic. Both Gothardites and hippie chicks rock denim skirts and long hair, so she wouldn't even have to change that much.

[MadameOvary]

Jill has had a bit of a flower child style going on since before she met Derick. Relative to her sisters anyway; less make-up, slightly more natural hairstyle. I think it suits her well.

As for Derick, his bandanna wasn't attractive. But doesn't it mean that his hair is now long enough that a bandanna was needed to keep it from his face? A man bun would be awesome.

Seriously though, if their aesthetic is getting hippiefied, I really hope that extends to other areas of life. Deficient as Jill's training was, at least she seems to be breastfeeding longer than Michelle which can only be a good thing under the circumstances. Maybe this is hoping too much, but if she were to move even some ways towards attachment parenting, that would be a revolution of sorts in the Dughard world. She would be able to influence younger Duggar sisters re: parenting.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, MadameOvary said:

Seriously though, if their aesthetic is getting hippiefied, I really hope that extends to other areas of life. Deficient as Jill's training was, at least she seems to be breastfeeding longer than Michelle which can only be a good thing under the circumstances. Maybe this is hoping too much, but if she were to move even some ways towards attachment parenting, that would be a revolution of sorts in the Dughard world. She would be able to influence younger Duggar sisters re: parenting.

It would be good for Izzy, but Zsu breastfeeds for one year or more each child, and although she is attached to babies (not let them cry, etc) we all know how hard is she with toddlers. So breastfeeding is good, but not necessary means Jill will do a gentle parenting.

[MadameOvary]

2 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

It would be good for Izzy, but Zsu breastfeeds for one year or more each child, and although she is attached to babies (not let them cry, etc) we all know how hard is she with toddlers. So breastfeeding is good, but not necessary means Jill will do a gentle parenting.

Very true. But a girl can dream...

[Kitcae]

On 5/8/2016 at 8:35 AM, Four is Enough said:

I go scrapbooking at a semi-rural house whose neighbors have an off-kilter rooster. He crows all night, sleeps all day. We call him "Earl" because "Earl has to die"...

Crazy Earl! I've had two roosters that would start crowing at 11p.m. and go until 1 a.m.! Thankfully we don't have many neighbors around and they don't crow at night anymore! 

[HarleyQuinn]

9 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

but not necessary means Jill will do a gentle parenting.

If Israel is already not liking the pen Jill trains him up with, it's probably because she smacks him with it. I have no doubt Jill would blanket train or use one of thosw awful methods. 

[nst]

3 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

If Israel is already not liking the pen Jill trains him up with, it's probably because she smacks him with it. I have no doubt Jill would blanket train or use one of thosw awful methods. 

do you think that is why he sits between the crack of two tables in one photo ?

[choralcrusader8613]

He may also not like the pen because he knows she's trying to get him to walk, and he's tired of it. Yes, Jim Bob and Michelle promoted blanket training, but I don't see evidence that Jill or Derick are abusing Israel.

[HarleyQuinn]

Aside from a way too big Israel being swaddled and left on the bed/pack in play to cry? I know I'm making assumptions, but seeing as these are Duggars I always assume the worst. 

[anotherone]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 8:21 PM, Cleopatra7 said:

Since Derrick is rocking the gospel bum look, maybe Jill will become a more "Jesus people" type Christian, still pretty fundie, but with a more hippie-ish aesthetic. Both Gothardites and hippie chicks rock denim skirts and long hair, so she wouldn't even have to change that much.

I always found it interesting that religions would decide the clothing/hair styles that are appropriate just happened to be whatever was in style at the time. So of course the hippie look, as didn't Gothardism start around the 70's.  How come their dress code didn't involve covering the hair, feet or arms like the Amish.

 As for them, interesting point in the prayer:

 

[Cleopatra7]

41 minutes ago, anotherone said:

I always found it interesting that religions would decide the clothing/hair styles that are appropriate just happened to be whatever was in style at the time. So of course the hippie look, as didn't Gothardism start around the 70's.  How come their dress code didn't involve covering the hair, feet or arms like the Amish.

 As for them, interesting point in the prayer:

 

The male Gothard look is easy to understand, since it looks like a 1950s Stepford dad closet. The female Gothard look, with the ugly frumpers and huge Peter Pan collars makes less sense, because that look was never in style at any point in time. Gothardism emphasizes female "modesty," but dressing like that is going to make people stare at you, which is the opposite of being modest. I think that the point of these religious uniforms, whether among the Amish, Hasidic Jews, or Gothardites is less about modesty per se, and more about enforcing group identity among members and emphasizing their difference from mainstream society.

[Ungodly Grandma]

25 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The male Gothard look is easy to understand, since it looks like a 1950s Stepford dad closet. The female Gothard look, with the ugly frumpers and huge Peter Pan collars makes less sense, because that look was never in style at any point in time. Gothardism emphasizes female "modesty," but dressing like that is going to make people stare at you, which is the opposite of being modest. I think that the point of these religious uniforms, whether among the Amish, Hasidic Jews, or Gothardites is less about modesty per se, and more about enforcing group identity among members and emphasizing their difference from mainstream society.

Maybe the frumper itself serves as a sort of birth control!

[sj3339sta]

The frumper seems to be more of the "poor" way to clothe a massive family.  The dresses are made at home.  And the massive collars do draw people's eyes to their faces.  But they are ugly as sin.  

[anotherone]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The male Gothard look is easy to understand, since it looks like a 1950s Stepford dad closet. The female Gothard look, with the ugly frumpers and huge Peter Pan collars makes less sense, because that look was never in style at any point in time. Gothardism emphasizes female "modesty," but dressing like that is going to make people stare at you, which is the opposite of being modest. I think that the point of these religious uniforms, whether among the Amish, Hasidic Jews, or Gothardites is less about modesty per se, and more about enforcing group identity among members and emphasizing their difference from mainstream society.

This was the style in the 60's and was a staple in Catholic grade school from the late 50's to even more recently.  Usually it was for the under 12 set.  Our grade school switched from jumpers to a skirt and blouse when the girls got to 7th grade.  I'm guessing you're much younger than me

https://www.etsy.com/listing/236794379/vintage-1960s-girls-sleeveless-back?ref=shop_home_active_47

https://www.etsy.com/listing/241503335/uncut-girls-lined-jumper-school-uniform?ref=shop_home_active_21

 

 

[Cleopatra7]

2 hours ago, anotherone said:

This was the style in the 60's and was a staple in Catholic grade school from the late 50's to even more recently.  Usually it was for the under 12 set.  Our grade school switched from jumpers to a skirt and blouse when the girls got to 7th grade.  I'm guessing you're much younger than me

https://www.etsy.com/listing/236794379/vintage-1960s-girls-sleeveless-back?ref=shop_home_active_47

https://www.etsy.com/listing/241503335/uncut-girls-lined-jumper-school-uniform?ref=shop_home_active_21

 

 

Well I stand corrected. But the Peter Pan collar look was designed for little girls, not grown women or even teenage girls. When Michelle was rocking the frumper and huge collars, it only infatilized her appearance, which could have been intentional, since it would also infantilize her mental processes; baby voice, baby clothes, and a baby mindset.

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The male Gothard look is easy to understand, since it looks like a 1950s Stepford dad closet. The female Gothard look, with the ugly frumpers and huge Peter Pan collars makes less sense, because that look was never in style at any point in time. Gothardism emphasizes female "modesty," but dressing like that is going to make people stare at you, which is the opposite of being modest. I think that the point of these religious uniforms, whether among the Amish, Hasidic Jews, or Gothardites is less about modesty per se, and more about enforcing group identity among members and emphasizing their difference from mainstream society.

I read years ago that the FLDS women's dresses were just ordinary dresses until the 1970s or so when they were directed to dress in the way they dress now.  I can't find that interview now, but this Link  includes a picture of the women in the 1950s wearing what was just somewhat conservative skirts and blouses and dresses back then.( Pics of my mom and her friends during the same period aren't that different.)

[Cleopatra7]

5 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I read years ago that the FLDS women's dresses were just ordinary dresses until the 1970s or so when they were directed to dress in the way they dress now.  I can't find that interview now, but this Link  includes a picture of the women in the 1950s wearing what was just somewhat conservative skirts and blouses and dresses back then.( Pics of my mom and her friends during the same period aren't that different.)

I've seen pictures of the FLDS from the 40s and 50s on the Politics RU Principle blog and I've noticed the "normal" clothes as well. If the pictures weren't captioned mentioning that the people in question where polygamists, I'd just assume they were a conventional large rural family.

[silverspoons]

17 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I read years ago that the FLDS women's dresses were just ordinary dresses until the 1970s or so when they were directed to dress in the way they dress now.  I can't find that interview now, but this Link  includes a picture of the women in the 1950s wearing what was just somewhat conservative skirts and blouses and dresses back then.( Pics of my mom and her friends during the same period aren't that different.)

My husband's family has polygamist roots and he used to visit them in short creek (Colorado city) as a kid. He said his grandma wore normal dresses till she died (in the 1980's). He said it was a mix of the dress pattern you see today, normal dresses and women wearing long skirts in the 70's and 80's. He said by the time Warren Jeffs came to power the dress pattern you see today became the standard for what I would call the devout FLDS.

In 2016 there are still skirt wearing polygamist but they tend to be from the Centential Park or they are more liberal FLDS. There are many more FLDS letting there kids go to regular high school and the moms still have the hair but seem to be trying to dress a bit more mainstream, still long dresses or skirts but maybe a more current jacket or even some jewelry. the hair seems to be the one aspect with staying power. If I were to look at the moms at my kid's high school, many LDS moms wear maxi skirts and maxi dresses and have long hair, the only way to tell the polygamist from the LDS is how the long hair is styled.  

 

I like yard sales and I always find it interesting to see the polygamist women that still dress in the simple plain dresses looking for clothes for their young girls. They love the Gymboree dresses with the big bright  flower prints and ditzy prints. What they chose for their 0-5 year olds to wear is so different from what they wear.

[EmCatlyn]

4 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

My husband's family has polygamist roots and he used to visit them in short creek (Colorado city) as a kid. He said his grandma wore normal dresses till she died (in the 1980's). He said it was a mix of the dress pattern you see today, normal dresses and women wearing long skirts in the 70's and 80's. He said by the time Warren Jeffs came to power the dress pattern you see today became the standard for what I would call the devout FLDS.

In 2016 there are still skirt wearing polygamist but they tend to be from the Centential Park or they are more liberal FLDS. There are many more FLDS letting there kids go to regular high school and the moms still have the hair but seem to be trying to dress a bit more mainstream, still long dresses or skirts but maybe a more current jacket or even some jewelry. the hair seems to be the one aspect with staying power. If I were to look at the moms at my kid's high school, many LDS moms wear maxi skirts and maxi dresses and have long hair, the only way to tell the polygamist from the LDS is how the long hair is styled.  

I like yard sales and I always find it interesting to see the polygamist women that still dress in the simple plain dresses looking for clothes for their young girls. They love the Gymboree dresses with the big bright  flower prints and ditzy prints. What they chose for their 0-5 year olds to wear is so different from what they wear.

I have noticed this with Muslim women also.  Their under-eight daughters often wear pretty much what other little girls wear.

[anotherone]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

Well I stand corrected. But the Peter Pan collar look was designed for little girls, not grown women or even teenage girls. When Michelle was rocking the frumper and huge collars, it only infatilized her appearance, which could have been intentional, since it would also infantilize her mental processes; baby voice, baby clothes, and a baby mindset.

Oh I totally agree with you here.  Yes it was only for small girls.  I forgot Michelle wore that too.  She was probably the only woman over 12 that ever wore such a thing.  Maybe it affected her mind somehow.

[nickelodeon]

Somehow unsurprised that Bill "surrounds himself with teenagers so he can touch their feet" Gothard commands grown women to dress like schoolgirls...

[Four is Enough]

While I suffered through a Catholic Uniform for 12 years, as I recall, Michelle's Peter Pan collar was WAAY exaggerated to anything I would have worn... even given the proportions of a woman. I recall the huge PP collars on her girls, too, and thought it was just so "Peter pan-ier than thou" first time I saw it.

 

[hapamama]

21 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I have noticed this with Muslim women also.  Their under-eight daughters often wear pretty much what other little girls wear.

My daughter has a Muslim friend from school. Other than her hijab, she is just as stylish as the other girls, except a little more modest.

[Ungodly Grandma]

42 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

While I suffered through a Catholic Uniform for 12 years, as I recall, Michelle's Peter Pan collar was WAAY exaggerated to anything I would have worn... even given the proportions of a woman. I recall the huge PP collars on her girls, too, and thought it was just so "Peter pan-ier than thou" first time I saw it.

 

I always thought a Peter Pan collar was just a normal collar, but more round. The things Michelle and the girls wore were like Pilgrim costumes or something, not like Catholic school uniforms. Those were downright snazzy in comparison! 

[PennySycamore]

@Ungodly Grandma,  I thought so, too.  I think the particular variation (the drawing on the Wikimedia page) of the collar was stylish for young women in the late 50s-early 60s.

Peter Pan collars

There are several pictures of English actress Maude Adams who originated the role of Peter Pan and also started the tradition of Peter being played by a female.  There's also a cute photo of future President Ford when he was a young boy wearing a suit with a Peter Pan collared shirt.