Armed Protesters take over Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge

[DaisyD]

Why that time?

[Howl]

1 hour ago, daisyd681 said:

Why that time?

Totally random, and I can't imagine them lasting through another day and night out there.  At some point, they will run out of gas for the generator, and run out of food + plus their access to the outside world has been severed -- no cell service, no internet. They have to be exhausted and sleep deprived, since i assumed that are taking turns staying awake to make sure nobody sneaks up on them. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I really hope it is soon. And no one gets hurt.

Sons of biscuit eating basketball players. (In the words of my late father-in-law.)

[AmazonGrace]

Cliven Bundy is The Supreme Leader, everyone do what Cliven says now:

 

“This is notice that We the People of Harney County and also We the People of the citizens of the United States DO GIVE NOTICE THAT WE WILL RETAIN POSSESSION OF THE HARNEY COUNTY RESOURCE CENTER,” Cliven wrote in the letter, which he sent on Monday to the local sheriff, Oregon governor Kate Brown, and the White House.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/01/oregon-armed-militia-standoff-cliven-ammon-bundy-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge

 

“What this is saying is that Cliven Bundy is taking control of things,” Cliven said in an interview from his ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada, on Monday afternoon. “If we don’t retain it, then we’ve lost everything that we’ve done in the last two months. We’re not gonna give up.”

He added: “This is not Ammon’s message. This is my message ... We’ve made a decision to retain it ... The feds are going to get out of there.”

[Howl]

I wonder if Ryan and Ammon will be as strong and outspoken in their beliefs after their current stint in jail.....and prison.  Ammon has a hearing scheduled today in front of a different judge to try to get released until his trial.  His dad's rhetoric can't be helping.  Every time I come across  Ryan Bundy's booking photo from last Tuesday, there is a bottomless pool of anguish in his eyes, as though he is the sole person to understand how totally and completely f*cked they are at this point. 

 Let's see how this is working out for people who are not Cliven Bundy.   His friend and supporter, LaVoy Finecum, is dead.  Two of his sons and many others are in jail and will be facing time in prison.  Their lawyers fees may bankrupt them and their families.  Any of these people who are convicted as felons won't be able to own or carry firearms.   (I mention this because this means everything to these people).

[ETA: I'm also wondering if they all actually TRULY believed that this would turn out like the 2014 Bundy-stan confrontation, where the Feds stood down and there were no apparent consequences (yet). ]  

I suspect that many others who fled earlier may also get a knock on the door from law enforcement. 

Cliven Bundy is an arrogant a**, but there's something about him that also seems more than a  little cruel. 

[AmazonGrace]

He seems  narcissistic and delusional to me and seems to disregard everyone's safety and future here.  Except his own...  He wrote like the king of the county and says things like, "Cliven Bundy is taking control of things" but what is he doing for realz?  I forget - did he even visit the refuge? He's an old man who "retains" the Harney County Resource Center from the comfort of his cosy ranch in another state, and it's not his actual skin that is on the firing line if/when shit happens. So easy for him to talk when  it's other people who are left holding the bag and he's not likely to get a prison sentence or a hole in his skin as a reward.  

[Howl]

6 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

He seems  narcissistic and delusional to me and seems to disregard everyone's safety and future here.  Except his own...  He wrote like the king of the county and says things like, "Cliven Bundy is taking control of things" but what is he doing for realz?  I forget - did he even visit the refuge? He's an old man who "retains" the Harney County Resource Center from the comfort of his cosy ranch in another state, and it's not his actual skin that is on the firing line if/when shit happens. So easy for him to talk when  it's other people who are left holding the bag and he's not likely to get a prison sentence or a hole in his skin as a reward.  

Yup, the essence of fanatical Mormon patriarch, and he seems to have no problem sacrificing his children to the cause.  I need to revisit Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven this week.  

[AmazonGrace]

He's got 14 kids and 60 grandkids, he can spare a few and not notice the difference.

[DaisyD]

"We the people of Harney"??? Last I heard the actual people of Harney have no interest in buying what these asshats are selling. You can't just call yourself a citizen of a county. That's not how it works...

[AmazonGrace]

It's the royal We I think... He's saying, "We the citizens of the USA" when he really means, "We,  Cliven Bundy, the only person whose opinion matters at all"

[Howl]

From OPB.org

Quote

Ammon Bundy's Attorneys Withdraw Appeal For Pre-Trial Release

No reason given, but 

 

Quote

Two other men arrested last week after occupying the refuge — Pete Santilli and Joseph O’Shaughnessy — are still scheduled to appeal their detentions Tuesday.

 

From OregonLive!: The Final Four are still hanging in there, so I've lost my bet with myself that they would give up this morning.  Not only have they not left.....

Quote

 

BURNS -- The final occupiers of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge are still holding out for a miracle and taking all the prayers they can get.

But in the meantime, they're staying warm by gathering around a fire and eating hamburgers and vegetables.

After one day of silence, the four holdouts spent hours Monday taking calls on an Internet radio show. Though they claimed most of their communication channels were cut off overnight Saturday, they were able to call into the show hosted by a conservative blog, Redoubt News....

BI officials confirmed the armed occupation continued Tuesday, its 32nd day.

During Monday's online interview, Fry fielded questions for nearly three hours from callers and the show's hosts. He mentioned their dinner menu -- burgers and vegetables -- in response to a question about how they kept warm. Temperatures dropped overnight to the single digits. 

He repeatedly spoke of miracles, saying they occurred when people put their lives on the line. That's exactly what he and the other occupiers are doing, he said.

He also conceded, at least twice, that they were breaking the law. "Sometimes it's right to break a law. This is the time to break a law," Fry said.

 

Quadruple face palm. Tonight  I would really like the FBI to project a two-story Jesus hologram over the refuge, with audio of Jesus asking them to leave.  If they sitting around the campfire getting stoned, it could make a big impressions.

[AmazonGrace]

So was it just drama that FBI meddled with their phones? The reception was low because they're camping in the middle of Nowhere, OR?

[SpoonfulOSugar]

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

So was it just drama that FBI meddled with their phones? The reception was low because they're camping in the middle of Nowhere, OR?

I wondered if it was paranoia . . . but the news agencies were getting busy signals . . . . I just don't know.

CNN has interviewed the 18 year old.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/02/us/witness-lavoy-finicum-killed-oregon/

I would not know the difference between flash bangs, non-lethal shots, and bullets.  I'm skeptical that she does.  (That's my charitable response.)

Also, the Finicum family is reported to have had an independent autopsy conducted on Saturday.

[AmazonGrace]

Now their efforts have been immortalized in a Counter Strike map: 

http://steamed.kotaku.com/fan-s-counter-strike-map-imagines-a-far-more-deadly-ore-1756658935

“A group of heavily armed patriots known only as ‘Vanilla Isis’ have decided to launch a rebellion against their tyrannical government! Using their brilliant tactical mind they chose their first target: a mostly unoccupied bird sanctuary and wildlife refuge. After about 2 days of holding this territory from the feds they have unfortunately run out of vital supplies like slim jims,energy drinks and beer. In an act of desperation for more supplies they have taken a couple of orange jumpsuit wearing bird watchers hostage. Now with human lives at stake the feds have been forced to respond.”

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Investigation into Finicum's death to take four to six weeks (which I think is pretty fast).

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/investigation_into_death_of_or.html#incart_maj-story-1

 

[Howl]

Now Franklin Graham has somehow joined the fray.  According to OregonLive! today, his role is clear as mud; 

Quote

 

BURNS -- Christian evangelist Franklin Graham joined talks to end the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. 

A spokesman for Graham confirmed that he communicated by phone with both federal representatives and the four remaining holdouts at the refuge. 

"Other than that, he has no comment," said Todd Shearer, the spokesman. 

He declined to say whether Graham's discussions with either side are ongoing, so it's unclear whether Graham holds an active role in the negotiations.

Graham's name first came up after the last protesters called for him to act as an intermediary. Graham runs the North Carolina-based evangelical organization named after his father Billy Graham.

 

I sure as hell hope there is a canned whole chicken at the refuge, and the Final Four decide to surrender rather than eat it.  Yeah, google "pictures of canned whole chicken" for context. 

[Cleopatra7]

On 1/15/2016 at 11:41 AM, 47of74 said:

10 minutes ago, Howl said:

Now Franklin Graham has somehow joined the fray.  According to OregonLive! today, his role is clear as mud; 

I sure as hell hope there is a canned whole chicken at the refuge, and the Final Four decide to surrender rather than eat it.  Yeah, google "pictures of canned whole chicken" for context. 

Now these clowns have a 55 gallon drum of lube coming their way;

boingboing.net/2016/01/14/oregons-domestic-terrorists.html

 

Given that most, perhaps all, of the "protesters" are Mormon, I'm not sure what Franklin Graham thinks he can do. The entire point of the Latter Day Saints movement is that mainstream Christianity had become corrupt, and Joseph Smith restored Christianity to how god intended. If anything, Graham would be a symbol of everything they're against.

[DaisyD]

The Bundys are Mormon. I don't know that the rest are...

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Yeah, I'm looking - the Daily Fail reports that Sean Anderson is a failed Lutheran.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3424211/Oregon-militiaman-armed-standoff-FBI-abusive-radical-string-drug-alcohol-convictions-willing-die-beliefs.html

They're all relative northerners, from what I recall - Fry is from Ohio.  Anderson was originally from Wisconsin.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/warren-county/blanchester/blanchester-man-one-of-final-four-armed-protestors-left-at-oregon-wildlife-refuge

I think only Jeff Banta, the one we don't know as much about, might be Mormon.

[Howl]

Ya know, at some point the penis-shaped gummi bears might start lookin' pretty darn good to the Final Four. 

Bet they're also really wishin' Amazon had drone delivery. 

 

[Howl]

As noted upthread, Ammon Bundy's lawyers have withdrawn a petition for pre-trial release and now I think I know why.  From OregonLive!

Quote

"Mr. Bundy requests this in order to gather further evidence of his statements and actions encouraging a peaceful protest and civil disobedience,'' his attorneys, Mike Arnold and Lissa Casey, wrote in a motion filed in U.S. District Court in Portland.

The Web site for Arnold Law looks like (and is) a general practice law firm, but I recalled that when they took the case, there was something mentioned about a strong interest in defending Federal law cases.  There is a Federal Criminal Defense tab on their Web site.  arnoldlawfirm.com/federal-criminal-defense-attorneys-in-eugene-oregon/ and a separate tab for Ammon Bundy  arnoldlawfirm.com/ammon-bundy/

This looks to me like a very high dollar defense, with a strategy focused on decent principled folk involved in civil disobedience (kinda like a sit in at a lunch counter with AK47s) and not armed thugs acting out.  Seems like a stretch to me.  However, if this was the Bundy's strategy from back in November (civil disobedience via peaceful  camp in, s'mores, kubayah), perhaps they edited their public comments carefully and were not shown armed.  Peaceful protest, yada yada.  Can any of you Degreed Law Professionals™  speculate:  is this a  case that might ultimately go to the Supreme Court?

Quote

 

In a statement released by his lawyers, Bundy again asked the four holdout occupiers at the refuge to "go home now so their lives are not taken."

He said he is in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and hasn't spoken yet to his father, Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who sent a letter to the Harney County sheriff Monday saying "We the People" will retain possession of the refuge.

Ammon Bundy signaled what he wants to happen next: Have the FBI and Oregon State Police leave Harney County so the county sheriff can "cordon off the refuge" as local residents decide what to do with the land, he said. 

"It is simple: The land belongs to the people,'' Bundy's statement said.

 

Apparently, when they covered the Refuge's sign with their own "Harney County Resource Center" sign, they forgot that the original sign already says, YOUR Wildlife Refuge..  

For those with interest, High Country News always offers excellent writing and they have a full tab on their Web site for the Sagebrush Rebellion:   hcn.org/topics/sagebrush-rebellion

From an HCN essay posted Feb 2, 2016 by a staff member who has covered violent conflicts in Sri Lanka, Thailand and Afghanistan: 

Quote

 

This magazine has followed the Sagebrush Rebellion for decades, but during the last two years, our journalists have focused on something more insidious, an inchoate movement of militants, law enforcement officers, state politicians, county commissioners and other supporters that I believe is more dangerous than it first appears. The Malheur occupation is only part of it. The State Department defines an insurgency as “the organized use of subversion and violence to seize, nullify, or challenge political control of a region.” That’s starting to happen right here in the West.

These would-be guerrillas are different from other insurgents in degree, not kind. They are not interested in the rule of law, nor the principles of democracy. They are zealots, blind to all but their version of the truth, stumbling toward some unseen flashpoint. We’ve dedicated much of the current issue to understanding this movement, one that is largely unknown to the public and perhaps partially obscure even to itself. The problem is not going anywhere, and, though I wish it were, it’s certainly not a joke.      

 

Even though the Malheur occupation is in its final days and we're seen these people as fitting  objects of satire, I hope this has sensitized FJers to the larger craziness and danger that abounds with these movements:  patriots, militia, Sagebrush Rebellion, Oath Keepers, Sovereign Citizen, whatever. 

As the Malheur Occupation has shown, at least some of these people are beginning to think very strategically about how to advance their agenda, and by their actions, will have this 2nd-amendment-armed-occupation-as-civil-disobedience strategy heard in a court of law. Remember that Oregon is an open carry state.  However, I'm assuming that Federal fire arms regulations trump state law on Federal land.

In the same way that fundies have focused on gaining acceptance, control and power by running for public office at all levels (local school boards, state representatives, US Reps. and Senators), this movement (which is related) is starting to get people in positions of power:  sheriffs, county commissioners, law officers and some sympathetic elected officials. 

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Here's an extensive explication of the events at Malheur.  The author apparently did similar for Bundyland, but I haven't gone there yet.

https://riversong.wordpress.com/range-war-redux-bundy-boys-in-oregon/

[CTRLZero]

1 hour ago, SpoonfulOSugar said:

Here's an extensive explication of the events at Malheur.

I've been trying to keep up with all the events, especially since I'm in a neighboring state and had wanted to do a road trip to the area (oh, well, maybe next year).   Thanks for posting the link.   Lots of information here.  Don't know how I missed the part about the sumo wrestler...

 

[SpoonfulOSugar]

2 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

Don't know how I missed the part about the sumo wrestler...

Sumo wrestler?

Do tell us more . . . I missed that one!

[CTRLZero]

1 minute ago, SpoonfulOSugar said:

Sumo wrestler?

Do tell us more . . . I missed that one!

Scroll down to Day 23/January 24 (or a word search on "sumo").  Honestly, it was like the circus was in town.  I feel for the local residents.