Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 3

[Othello]

7 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

I wish I could like this more than once. People who weren't raised in the kind of super controlling high stakes environment of a cult don't seem to get that there are only two choices - drink the kool aid, or lie. And if you dont believe, and can't or won't buy in to the lies you have told yourself about believing, the lies you have to consciously tell or live out are not just about what you did or didn't do, they are about what and how you think. Who you are.  Basically, everything that you are putting out to the family and/or community becomes a lie. Your whole self is wreathed in a minefield of distrust and untruth, and it isn't safe to let anyone know what lies beneath the keep sweet persona. I grew up in a world where one mistep could have been disastrous (for me), and the one thing I learned, above everything else, was how to look someone in the eyes and straight out lie. It was almost reflexive for a few years after I found my way to the real world, and I can still do it at a very high level, but I try not to as the need isn't there anymore - besides, I firmly believe that lies cause wrinkles 

Exactly; and the mask *is* your identity until you can get the hell out of there, you're never allowed even the tiniest of chances to figure out yourself as an individual. It because a Jekyll and Hyde sort of mental game, almost dissociative—gasping for air and sometimes doing desperate things to find glimpses or experiences of outside the prison. Same here—you learn to lie, and convincingly, so early on. It's absolutely reflexive—it's so difficult to shed the habit even when you're outside the fold. It's also a long process of scratching off the layers of shit to find your own individual identity, and one that I am still working on as a 24-yo, but I'm learning to be open with myself and others. It can be a struggle, but oh so freeing.

[pumpkie0]

she sounds like they gave her the michelle koolaide cold robotic no feeling

[luv2laugh]

I don't believe Anna is wrestling with this decision as I had thought she was. I can read her pretty clearly. She's mad at the media hating on her husband. She looked very angry at the camera when she said, "Josh had to resign from his job after the first scandal and I had to leave DC. I haven't been to DC since." When she said that she "respects other people's opinion but I made a vow to my husband", you could literally see her fire in her eyes. She is more angry at what people are doing to Josh's image and how the media is ruining his life, reputation and future employment. She minimized the molestation and called it his "teenage choices." However, I do think she is extremely brainwashed. We are seeing brainwashing in action. This is evident in the fact that she is staying in the girls' room at the JB & Michelle compound. If she wanted to stay with family for emotional support, why not let her and the kids go to her parent's house? JB & Michelle won't let her go live with her parents because she has family members that want her to leave. Also, I do not understand why people expected her to leave. They are taught to stay with their husbands no matter what. The only thing that shocked me was how defensive she appeared, more at the public and media than what Josh actually did. She didn't appear to be as upset with Josh as I had imagined and I found it surprising and left me less sympathetic toward her. Just watch, they will be doing another special involving Josh in an attempt to clear his name up and show how they are restoring their marriage.

[colors_outside15]

10 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

I wish I could like this more than once. People who weren't raised in the kind of super controlling high stakes environment of a cult don't seem to get that there are only two choices - drink the kool aid, or lie. And if you dont believe, and can't or won't buy in to the lies you have told yourself about believing, the lies you have to consciously tell or live out are not just about what you did or didn't do, they are about what and how you think. Who you are.  Basically, everything that you are putting out to the family and/or community becomes a lie. Your whole self is wreathed in a minefield of distrust and untruth, and it isn't safe to let anyone know what lies beneath the keep sweet persona. I grew up in a world where one mistep could have been disasterous (for me), and the one thing I learned, above everything else, was how to look someone in the eyes and straight out lie. It was almost reflexive for a few years after I found my way to the real world, and I can still do it at a very high level, but I try not to as the need isn't there anymore - besides, I firmly believe that lies cause wrinkles 

I wish I could like this more than once! People really don't understand what it's like to be raised in those environments. I've found that I can now relate best to other cult survivors and to war veterans, who had/have extremely tight knit bonds with their unit, and always went back to the frontlines - even when injured. In both cases, you're bound by duty and by fear. If you're not there something horrible will/might happen (you're sure it will though), and you'll always wonder if you could have prevented it from happening (you always think you could have). For me, not lying was super important, especially for my buddies. I wanted to be an example, but I also wanted to live. I wanted to do more than survive. I found ways to not lie while still lying ... does that make any sense? As in, stating a few sentences that were all true and would be taken at face value and strung together to mean something completely compliant/necessary, but I wouldn't mean the sentences in that way and they COULD mean something else, but I was so good at drinking up what they wanted and spitting it out that no one had any reason to dig through the sentences looking for periods I might have inserted in my brain. No one would look for more, but it was there, so I wasn't lying ... it was just that no one figured it out.
"Your whole self is wreathed in a minefield of distrust and untruth, and it isn't safe to let anyone know what lies beneath the keep sweet persona". EXACTLY. NOTHING IS SAFE. And it is hell. (Off topic, but this is why I'm the only person who likes Jill. She reminds me of me. Everyone talks about her being a tattle-tale. YEAH, but she told on JOSH. That takes a courage no one else had. And her unconditional buddy love is crystal clear. But, when she met Derek, she took a chance on another type of love, which is scary!! He wasn't in her cult, and she's never known anything different, but she still married HIM. And now, she's on the mission field like she stated she wanted. Is it "actually" a mission ... no. But, she got out of THAT house and is doing what she wanted. I don't think she'll be fundie forever. Derek isn't, and he clearly doesn't support Josh. I love that he said "who you are when you're alone is your true self" (or something to that effect). That will matter, and sink in, to Jill).

I've made it my mission to never lie in the new life I've built. I'm transparent now - and people love it or hate it, but umm ... I'm alive and de-brainwashed and got myself through school and that's not quite enough for me, but I am proud to some degree. Yet, I want my buddies back more than I can ever ever ever say and I wonder even if I have children if I can ever love them or ANYONE as much as my buddies (especially one of them). When you have sibling-children, you have two relationships with them. How do you have a stronger bond, love, and relationship with someone you "only" have one relationship with? 

I love this forum and the safe space it provides. I left ... I left when I realized I literally could not live anymore (literally) in that environment. I worry every single day about how my buddies are and if they are okay. I did everything I could to make sure they would be okay. I looked like I drank the most Kool-Aid, but I'm the only one who is out of it and has built a new life. So, when I look at the hard core Kool-Aid drinkers, I wonder if beneath the surface there's so much more. I think once TLC is finally gone, there will be some changes. TLC - seriously - LEAVE.

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I don't believe Anna is wrestling with this decision as I had thought she was. I can read her pretty clearly. She's mad at the media hating on her husband. She looked very angry at the camera when she said, "Josh had to resign from his job after the first scandal and I had to leave DC. I haven't been to DC since." When she said that she "respects other people's opinion but I made a vow to my husband", you could literally see her fire in her eyes. She is more angry at what people are doing to Josh's image and how the media is ruining his life, reputation and future employment. She minimized the molestation and called it his "teenage choices." However, I do think she is extremely brainwashed. We are seeing brainwashing in action. This is evident in the fact that she is staying in the girls' room at the JB & Michelle compound. If she wanted to stay with family for emotional support, why not let her and the kids go to her parent's house? JB & Michelle won't let her go live with her parents because she has family members that want her to leave. Also, I do not understand why people expected her to leave. They are taught to stay with their husbands no matter what. The only thing that shocked me was how defensive she appeared, more at the public and media than what Josh actually did. She didn't appear to be as upset with Josh as I had imagined and I found it surprising and left me less sympathetic toward her. Just watch, they will be doing another special involving Josh in an attempt to clear his name up and show how they are restoring their marriage.

A good reason that Anna may be staying with her in-laws is that her parents don't have the space and the Duggars do.  Another reason may be that the Duggars have more financial resources.  A third is that her children are at home with their aunts and uncles and it is probably easier on the two oldest kids than moving in with her parents.

As for the anger Anna has at the media, she may be putting all her anger on the media because she cannot blame her parents for hooking her up with Josh or be too angry at Josh and still "stay sweet."

[OnceUponATime]

8 hours ago, socalrules said:

. What I cannot understand is why anyone would want to be married to someone who molested a child.

because you are raised/trained to believe that Jesus washes all past sins away.
I don't know all the ins and outs of gothard but, as someone who was raised in a black and white world, I can sort of follow the screwed up logic of why someone could consider married a molester. I'm in no way saying this is how *I* view it.

From the black and white world: All sin was black and evil. If you repented you were forgiven washed as white as snow by Jesus' blood (blah blah blah). You were seen as a new person - the old is gone the new is come.
In that worldview someone who stole the last piece of apple pie is just as sinful as the person who molests children (all sin is black, no gradients). Which pretty much means that if you're willing to marry someone who stole pie as a teenager you should be just as willing to marry a molester (providing both have repented/asked for forgiveness and you are following God's plan for your life). Also repent (at least from my childhood) doesn't just mean owning up, it means doing a 180 and changing your ways.
 

 

[RosyDaisy]

We will just have to agree to disagree. There is absolutely nothing that will make me change my mind.

[MakeItSo]

I saw the part where Anna said something like God has loved her through her faults and mistakes and so now she feels like she needs to be an extension of God and show Josh unconditional love. This, to me, sounded...'forced' isn't the right word but...are you trying to convince yourself or the public? Almost as if she hadn't completely worked through what she is saying herself...like she needed to tell herself that a few more times. Same with Jinger...something in their eyes just kind of seemed to me like they're not fully convinced themselves. (maybe I'm wrong. That's ok. I tried. :/ )

[AmazonGrace]

I think it would be weird and suspect if she had it all figured out by now. It seems like after something like this happening, you would be likely to have mixed feelings for a very long time, if you were honest to yourself.

[MakeItSo]

21 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

I think it would be weird and suspect if she had it all figured out by now. It seems like after something like this happening, you would be likely to have mixed feelings for a very long time, if you were honest to yourself.

just seems like they are, by default, scared of being honest with themselves. I remember Anna said something like if she had reacted the way she wanted to react when it first came out she would have made a bad situation worse (something about disaster :/...I don't remember). But yeah, I agree. I think anyone would have a whirlwind of emotions to sort through in her situation. 

[JenniferJuniper]

2 hours ago, MakeItSo said:

just seems like they are, by default, scared of being honest with themselves. I remember Anna said something like if she had reacted the way she wanted to react when it first came out she would have made a bad situation worse (something about disaster :/...I don't remember).

I'd love to know what she was thinking because someday she may return there, when's she's older and wiser and has had enough of Josh being Josh.

Wonder if it involved a gun?  Or a Bobbitisation?

 

[HarleyQuinn]

I cannot believe she's actually staying in the girls room. Jesus. I can't imagine a single woman in her 20's wanting to be there, but a married woman in her 20's? In the word of Clay Davis from The Wire, shiiiiiieeeeeeeetttttt.

[EmCatlyn]

20 hours ago, Mela99 said:

Let's be real - she could have walked in on him beating off to porn or nailing a hooker and she wouldn't leave. If you don't leave when your man fingers his five year old sister, you ain't gonna leave. 

She was maybe 14 years old when Josh molested the younger girls.   She could not have left "when" he molested a five-year-old because she wasn't with him.

What you mean is that she didn't leave when she found out the real extent of the molestation which, presumably, was when she read the police report after the story hit the media.

Now, let's remember that she was half-way through her fourth pregnancy, that she had lived with him all these years with no warning signs (that she recognized) and that she has been taught that God forgives all sinners.   She believed that he had changed.  She did not see him as a pervert but as a man who had made a mistake as a boy and had repented and not sinned again.

I cannot say for sure that in her place I wouldn't have done what she did.  If I found out that someone I loved had molested younger children when he was little more than a child himself, would I recoil in horror or figure that he had changed?

The scandal that is tearing her (and the Duggars) apart is what happened after their marriage.  I think she is just beginning to process what has happened to her world. 

[JenniferJuniper]

15 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

The scandal that is tearing her (and the Duggars) apart is what happened after their marriage.  I think she is just beginning to process what has happened to her world. 

I agree, although it's interesting that she mentioned reading the police report, presumably this year.

I would have read it to, but if she wanted to stay fully in her bubble she could have avoided it.

And I agree that the Duggars are far more shattered by the cheating than the molestations or the release of '06 police report.

Now, if I were 18 or 20 years old and my 8 - 10 years older brother cheated on his wife, I'd think he was a pig and a loser, but it wouldn't rock my world.  (if Josh were my brother, I'd have already known he was a pig and a loser).   They're not crying for Anna or the kids.  They're crying over Josh's annihilation of their brand.  Toto pulled the curtain back. The image they thought they'd cultivated as the world's biggest and best Christian family - and all the perks that went with it -  is gone forever.    

But it was always bound to happen in some fashion or another.  Reality shows always end up eating families in the end.  Take note, Little Couple.

[MakeItSo]

I believe I have said it before, but I will say it again Josh cheating on his wife and just being his pig self is probably the best thing that's happened to Bin. Did anyone else notice how smug and self-righteous Bin looked while Jessa was talking about Josh's bad decisions? All this is making Bin look all the more godly and manly. Good for you, Bin...you ride on that high horse but don't forget you're human and in the public eye, too! Then again, he'd have to f up pretty badly to trump Joshy. 

[Hisey]

I had always found Anna to be very smug, and never really liked her. I disliked the empty, mindless way that she was so sure that her parents had been right about things. Like her comment about single moms (though she probably didn't know any). Or the way she told a group of women convicts about her experience with suffering (a days-old pregnancy that ended in miscarriage.) Or the way she agreed with her parents that there's no need to tell a girl about sex till just before her marriage (I bet she's re=thinking that one now). She was ignorant, she was smug, and she was very young.

I think she's growing up. She's learning that it's good to know about sex, so that you can recognize the signs of sexual deviance. I doubt Mackynzie will go into marriage completely ignorant. She's learning that you can do everything right, and your husband can still cheat on you with prostitutes. She's learning that there are people in the world who will lie to you and cheat you and not care about your feelings (like her husband). She's learning that keeping sweet, having back-to-back babies, going along with things and being nice to everyone won't prevent people from being horrible to you. She's learning (slowly) that her parents care more about keeping her marriage together than they do about her. That they'll never say, "Honey, you do what's best for you and the kids. We'll support you either way."

Yes, I think she wants to save her marriage. She believes divorce is wrong, after all. But what about two years from now, if Josh cheats again? What about if he cheats a second time and a third? How will she submit to his authority, sleep with him, have a conversation with him then? No, if he keeps cheating, she is eventually going to leave, but I think she'll be 47 not 27.

[MoonFace]

That business of her staying with the girls in their room as if she needed to be watched bugs the crap out of me. 

She was capable of managing a home on her own while her husband was on business trips - and other overnight 'stays'.    Why couldn't she have moved in to Jill and Dingdong's empty house since they're gone on their 'mission'.   JB could have let Jana or Jinger go over and be her helper accountability person and report her actions.  

[EmCatlyn]

31 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I had always found Anna to be very smug, and never really liked her. I disliked the empty, mindless way that she was so sure that her parents had been right about things. Like her comment about single moms (though she probably didn't know any). Or the way she told a group of women convicts about her experience with suffering (a days-old pregnancy that ended in miscarriage.) Or the way she agreed with her parents that there's no need to tell a girl about sex till just before her marriage (I bet she's re=thinking that one now). She was ignorant, she was smug, and she was very young.

I think she's growing up. She's learning that it's good to know about sex, so that you can recognize the signs of sexual deviance. I doubt Mackynzie will go into marriage completely ignorant. She's learning that you can do everything right, and your husband can still cheat on you with prostitutes. She's learning that there are people in the world who will lie to you and cheat you and not care about your feelings (like her husband). She's learning that keeping sweet, having back-to-back babies, going along with things and being nice to everyone won't prevent people from being horrible to you. She's learning (slowly) that her parents care more about keeping her marriage together than they do about her. That they'll never say, "Honey, you do what's best for you and the kids. We'll support you either way."

Yes, I think she wants to save her marriage. She believes divorce is wrong, after all. But what about two years from now, if Josh cheats again? What about if he cheats a second time and a third? How will she submit to his authority, sleep with him, have a conversation with him then? No, if he keeps cheating, she is eventually going to leave, but I think she'll be 47 not 27.

Good points.  About the single moms though, I assume that was before her sister Susannah became one?

Living is learning.  But sometimes the lessons really hurt and/ or they come too late.

[EmCatlyn]

25 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

That business of her staying with the girls in their room as if she needed to be watched bugs the crap out of me. 

She was capable of managing a home on her own while her husband was on business trips - and other overnight 'stays'.    Why couldn't she have moved in to Jill and Dingdong's empty house since they're gone on their 'mission'.   JB could have let Jana or Jinger go over and be her helper accountability person and report her actions.  

I don't think it is so she can be watched, at least not explicitly.  From JB's point of view, putting her to sleep with the girls is the equivalent of claiming her as a daughter... But only up to a point.  

Staying at the TTC makes economic sense.  Given how angry JB must be at Josh, and how much Josh may be costing him already (someone is going to have to settle wit Danica and others who may emerge), JB may not be willing to provide money to "Josh's Wife," though he may feel some kindness towards "the mother of my grandchildren."  

And remember that everyone (including Anna) sees the arrangement as temporary.  It is not ideal, and it would have been considerate to give her some private space.  But the Duggars as a group don't seem very considerate, though it is possible that Jana volunteered to move to Jill's old bed so that Anna could have the most comfortable space possible in the "dorm."

[jinseng]

She is staying in the girls room because while Josh is away, she needs to be 'under authority'. If you cant be under authority of your husband, you are handed to the father (like Jana). If she just went and lived in one of the rentals with her kids, they would be exposed to the firey darts of satan. 

[marmalade]

That JB wouldn't even allow her to stay in the guest house (not the shed, but the first guest house they built for Josh and Anna's stays when they visited from DC), that is still on the back 40, speaks volumes. They would still be close enough for her kids to run across a patio to play with their uncles and aunts. That  JB didn't allow this, forcing Anna into Jana's bed with her clothes (and those of the kids) hung up next to her sleeping space speaks volumes about how she is really viewed by the guy paying the bills. 

I wish Anna would have taken Daniel up on his offer way back when. She could have chosen to be out of the media circus by going private, but what seems to be a financial decision to stay with the Duggars just drags her back into the public eye. And looking at that interview, that's not a place she really needs to be at this time. 

[molecule]

I've wondered if staying in the room with the girls is Anna's preference rather than Jim Bob's or Michelle's. She doesn't have to be alone with the sole responsibility for the children, she's less likely to end up a heap of sobbing goo in the middle of the night because others are around, and she never has to feel alone or abandoned. Although my preference would be to have privacy, her preference may be for company. Maybe if I experienced such a shock, I wouldn't want to be left alone, either. 

[luv2laugh]

11 hours ago, Hisey said:

Yes, I think she wants to save her marriage. She believes divorce is wrong, after all. But what about two years from now, if Josh cheats again? What about if he cheats a second time and a third? How will she submit to his authority, sleep with him, have a conversation with him then? No, if he keeps cheating, she is eventually going to leave, but I think she'll be 47 not 27.

I agree with this very much except I really don't think she will ever leave because Josh is going to have to either suppress his deviant sexual desires or come to terms with it. He will suppress it for awhile, but this is someone who was on that website to pay to cheat on your wife back when he was still in Arkansas married only for 2 years... If he comes to terms with it, he will end up doing her the favor by leaving her because he knows she never will.  I give this marriage 5 years before Josh walks out and chooses to divorce. Coupled with the humiliation and being thrown under the bus by the family, he will not last too many years in this. He will go back home and while Anna may truly forgive him, his family will treat him like dirt. 

[19 cats and counting]

11 hours ago, Hisey said:

 Like her comment about single moms (though she probably didn't know any).

When did she make this comment? 

Isn't her sister a single mom?  And for all intents and purposes, Anna herself is now a single mom (granted one with a lot of help who doesn't work outside the home).

[2manyKidzzz]

@luv2laugh.....I didn't realize he was on Ashley Mad when he had only been married for 2 years. Anna's "case" is really hopeless. So sad for her. 

What I feel after watching her is that it is the "cult package" that she feel and think the way she does, of course. She is relying on "The Lord" because that is the default. And of course, a person's spirituality is usually key in times of distress. But this is a conjured up plan, and totally puts the women in this cult at a disadvantage. None of the Duggar female children/adults have any resources of their own in a situation like this, without education and or training.