Anna Duggar and the M Kids - Part 3

[colors_outside15]

11 hours ago, calimojo said:

On another site, I saw a meme that I wish we could send to Anna.  It says,  "No Matter how many times a snake changes its skin, underneath it is still a snake".  Josh will be all fresh, shiny and new when he comes home, but Josh is damaged.  His parents ruined him and eventually his damage will again show.  He might be too scared to venture into the world of online sex and porn, but he could have his damage show up as frustration,  poor impulse control, anger issues.  Either way, once the shine is off the apple, Josh will most likely not have a happy life and by extension, neither will Anna.  As for the kids, there is some buffer there for her kids.  They aren't left alone with a distraught and heart broken mom,  and a bitter and twisted father.   

We all think that Anna should have left, and I agree in theory, but Anna has just revealed how poor her judgment really is.  She admitted reading those police reports and still calls Josh's sex crimes a "bad decision".  I don't think on her own, without a lot of professional support, that she really has what it takes to make it on her own. 

But I don't credit her with the ability to really raise 4 kids on her own.  Even if her brother offered to help, unless he is wealthy,  how could he support her with 4 kids.  I think part of why Anna is staying is because on some level, she knows she can't do it herself.  She can pretend that this is sign of the strength of her faith, but I think it is more a sign of fear of being a single mom.  I get it,  she was never raised to believe she could ever be independent, so it isn't surprising that she would just acquiesce her anger and heartbreak, past a crooked smile on her face, curl her hair to infinity and beyond and enjoy he new role as the ultimate godly wife.

I saw bits and pieces of that special - and to be crystal clear I despise Anna's and the Duggar's beliefs and their religion - but holy crap, did anyone other than me want to get in a car, drive to Arkansas, give her a hug, drag her out, and show her her potential? That show made me cry. Sure, in some ways, Anna's making decisions, but is she really?! Does she know there is professional help?! NO! Does she know she can probably get this help for no money? NO! Does she know she is entitled to help and support with her children and that she could get a degree and/or a job? NO! So, how can she FULLY make choices when she doesn't know the options?

I want to write to Anna. Dear Anna, I desperately need money, but I escaped a cult and am working on my Master's Degree(!!!). :-) I hate what I had to do to get here, but I am now a productive member of society, and in many ways, that is fulfilling. I hope I can get over my childhood and be fully proud and fulfilled someday, but I don't know if I will without my buddies. But, I do know that I'm alive and that I'm making choices based on what I can see, which is more than you. I would help you, and other people would too.

I'm so angry at that slimy slimy disgusting Josh who sang to a madly in love girl, whose father gave her up like property. I know what it's like to be treated as less than human, like many others here. And you don't know anything else, and it's not okay. So, as pathetic as it is to say this, I do want to pick Anna up and help her and actually give her the power to make decisions. I believe Anna can be a single mom with four children. With more? Maybe not. But four, I have seen people successfully raise independently, and Anna has shown herself to be a warm, loving mother with many skills that other parents do not have (ie: countless diaper changes, budgeting tips, cooking abilities, sewing aptitude etc.). Is she also profoundly behind/have disgusting punishment techniques? Yes, but that doesn't mean she cannot do the "real world". She just needs to see the real world for what it is with supportive people around her. Her brother calling out Josh didn't help - it hurt Anna. Getting over someone takes time, especially a spouse. I can't see myself running towards the person who made a media spectacle over how horrible my partner was/is - I'd run the other way. Were his intentions good? Yes, but I think they pushed Anna away and sent her running towards JB faster than she would have otherwise. If people were tender about her pain and taught her how to be a single mom (this does actually happen in real life to abused women who have no skills and scarred children on their hands, who they just got back from DHS) - she could do it.

I found a way to get professional support. I cringe at almost everything she says, but I would pick up Anna and help her find a pro-bono professional. Right now, she doesn't have anyone telling her that's an option and she doesn't see it. Maybe after the snake skin falls off another six times ... someone could reach out with love and help and it would work. I hate her beliefs, but I support her as a fellow woman. I believe Anna deserves help, and with it, she could become successfully independent (though she deserves - and would get - child support).  I may not like her, but that doesn't mean she's weak or shouldn't have help getting out. I think most people here would agree with that, but I had to say it because as much as I hate the words she said on-air, off-air is a different story. And in the off-air, real life, 3D picture of things - Anna is hurting and needs a community building her up. The real world, I think, could provide her with that support. So, no, I don't like her, but that show made me cry, and I'd help her. I guess it's time to change my name on here to PatheticDreamer_LetMeHelpYou

[Drala]

@colors_outside15  People will change when the pain of staying the same exceeds the fear of doing something different.  One thing that makes the Duggars a little different than some other cults is that everyone seems very comfortable and smugly stuck in their little cubbyholes.  That TLC money and media attention is a powerful magnet holding people together, imo.  I have also felt like reaching out to Anna (or Jana or Joyanne or Jenni), but I'm not the sort of person who could get a message through the firewall.  It will have to be a fundie friend who's not enamored of Gothardism that plants seeds of hope in a different way of being in the world.

@EmCatlyn:  You are awesome at logical argumentation.  What is it you teach?

[MatthewDuggar]

I'm sure someone may have mentioned this before here, but it's amazing how Anna has really turned into J'Chelle!  She doesn't have the baby voice, but she has the crazy eyes and other mannerisms.  She was not like that when she was initially on the show.  She made mention numerous times about how much she admires J'Chelle.  I wonder if maybe she really is obsessed with her a bit and has some serious blinders on regarding Josh and the scandals.

[Marissap]

11 hours ago, colors_outside15 said:

 

 I hate her beliefs, but I support her as a fellow woman. 

This probably best sums up my conflicted feelings towards this. I waffle between feeling such sorrow and put for her and thinking she's just lying in the bed she made but really it all comes down to wanting to support another woman. 

[gustava]

2 hours ago, MatthewDuggar said:

She made mention numerous times about how much she admires J'Chelle.  I wonder if maybe she really is obsessed with her a bit and has some serious blinders on regarding Josh and the scandals.

I think we'd all agree about her blinders...more like her head in the sand.  And I think you make a good point that her role model is Michelle, especially  given that she has few other female adults in her life....her own mother is not exactly a shining star in the firmament. 

[Nikedagain?]

15 hours ago, colors_outside15 said:

On another site, I saw a meme that I wish we could send to Anna.  It says,  "No Matter how many times a snake changes its skin, underneath it is still a snake".  Josh will be all fresh, shiny and new when he comes home, but Josh is damaged.  His parents ruined him and eventually his damage will again show.  He might be too scared to venture into the world of online sex and porn, but he could have his damage show up as frustration,  poor impulse control, anger issues.  Either way, once the shine is off the apple, Josh will most likely not have a happy life and by extension, neither will Anna.  As for the kids, there is some buffer there for her kids.  They aren't left alone with a distraught and heart broken mom,  and a bitter and twisted father.   

 

I posted earlier about my personal experience with marital mayhem - it did play out very publicly in our small (dysfunctional) town. My husband "went away for a few years" (sweet speak for prison) and I was pressured by 99% of my friends, family and church members to support him and salvage the marriage. Well, I tried. I had kids and no work experience etc. It almost killed me. A couple of years into it (after he came home), I just couldn't. I did not trust him or respect him. I made him leave and  I was basically shunned by many people and to this day, it haunts me if I did the right thing. I would love to spend 15 minutes alone with Anna. But sadly, I think she is too far gone. But I KNOW that it will never be the same, she will always have those nagging doubts. 

[apandaaries]

4 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

I posted earlier about my personal experience with marital mayhem - it did play out very publicly in our small (dysfunctional) town. My husband "went away for a few years" (sweet speak for prison) and I was pressured by 99% of my friends, family and church members to support him and salvage the marriage. Well, I tried. I had kids and no work experience etc. It almost killed me. A couple of years into it (after he came home), I just couldn't. I did not trust him or respect him. I made him leave and  I was basically shunned by many people and to this day, it haunts me if I did the right thing. I would love to spend 15 minutes alone with Anna. But sadly, I think she is too far gone. But I KNOW that it will never be the same, she will always have those nagging doubts. 

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but it sounds like you definitely did the right thing.  Not everyone will recognize that, but they don't have to live your life.  You do.  You are setting an excellent example for your children.  You don't want them to grow up to be doormats or disrespected, right? Good show moving on; try to leave the regrets behind, too.

[HeidiClaire]

I could see Josh disclaim all moral responsibility by stating he wasn't following "God's will" when he married Anna.  In other words, a Jonah's whale life strategy led to porn addiction, monetary gifts to strangers, and rough sex.

This logic could pave the way for whatever preferable idea he comes up with while in rehab. 

[accountingstar]

The Daily Mail has analyzed Christmas Day videos posted by Jessa and Amy. They determined the following:

Quote

The plane being spotted and Jessa's video makes it seem likely that the Duggar plane, flown by John-David, may have taken Anna and some or all of her children up to Illinois so they could spend Christmas Eve night together as a family with Josh and then be together as a family the next morning to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

But if they did visit, it was just for the day, as and they then said their goodbyes and left Josh to return to Arkansas In a video posted from Christmas night by Duggar cousin Amy King, Anna, her children Mackynzie, Marcus, and Michael, and John-David can all be seen in the Duggar home.

Anna and the children going to visit Josh also makes sense because to the Duggars Christmas is above all about celebrating the birth of Christ and being with family to create new traditions. 

Also, missing Christmas morning in Arkansas is not as big of an issue as it would be with for other families celebrating the holiday because Jim Bob and Michelle never introduced the idea of Santa Claus to their children.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374708/Did-Josh-Duggar-spend-Christmas-Anna-kids-pilot-John-David-seen-morning-family-posts-Arkansas-time-plane-Illinois-night.html

I cannot imagine flying in a small plane with four young children. There's not even a restroom on board. Also, small planes experience greater airplane turbulence. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It will be interesting to see what happens once Josh gets out of rehab.

[Valerie3kids]

10 minutes ago, accountingstar said:

The Daily Mail has analyzed Christmas Day videos posted by Jessa and Amy. They determined the following:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374708/Did-Josh-Duggar-spend-Christmas-Anna-kids-pilot-John-David-seen-morning-family-posts-Arkansas-time-plane-Illinois-night.html

I cannot imagine flying in a small plane with four young children. There's not even a restroom on board. Also, small planes experience greater airplane turbulence. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It will be interesting to see what happens once Josh gets out of rehab.

Plus everyone in the family seems to have motion sickness problems. I never understood why Michelle talked about this problem but didn't give her children something such as Dramamine to help. We were instead forced to watch children and adults barf into bags on numerous occasions. I have always had problems with motion sickness and always carry Bonine with me even for long car rides when I am not the driver. It just isn't worth the upset stomach to me.

[EmCatlyn]

14 minutes ago, Valerie3kids said:

Plus everyone in the family seems to have motion sickness problems. I never understood why Michelle talked about this problem but didn't give her children something such as Dramamine to help. We were instead forced to watch children and adults barf into bags on numerous occasions. I have always had problems with motion sickness and always carry Bonine with me even for long car rides when I am not the driver. It just isn't worth the upset stomach to me.

I hope John David doesn't suffer from motion sickness!  That is not a good thing for a pilot.

As for Anna and the kids, maybe they don't suffer from motion sickness and the plane ride is brief enough that the adults won't need a rest room and the kids out of diapers who might have accidents would have worn pull-ups.

I am glad for the kids that they got to spend time with their Dad for Christmas.  I bet the two oldest at least found the trip worth it.  I wonder what they have been told about why their Dad can't be with them.

[halcionne]

The plane ride was two hours out and three hours back. The only way Anna and the M kids would fit is if Meredith were on Anna's lap and the six, four, and two-year-olds shared two seats among themselves, which I wouldn't put past the Duggars.

Count me as a person who gets motion sickness and never bothered with Dramamine. I don't travel often enough to use up a bottle of pills before they expire, so my frugal streak can't justify the purchase. The Duggars don't have that excuse. 

[EmCatlyn]

13 minutes ago, halcionne said:

The plane ride was two hours out and three hours back. The only way Anna and the M kids would fit is if Meredith were on Anna's lap and the six, four, and two-year-olds shared two seats among themselves, which I wouldn't put past the Duggars.

Count me as a person who gets motion sickness and never bothered with Dramamine. I don't travel often enough to use up a bottle of pills before they expire, so my frugal streak can't justify the purchase. The Duggars don't have that excuse. 

I don't know about other people's experience but a 6 year old should be able to go three hours without a bathroom.  (The younger ones should have been in diapers or pull ups.)  Tiny planes are not my idea of fun, but one assumes the Duggars feel otherwise in spite of motion sickness.

Didn't Michelle have motion-sickness-preventing accupressure bands that she used for morning sickness?  The bands have never worked for me ( for either motion sickness  or pregnancy nausea) but you'd think the J kids and kidults would use them.

[Incognito22]

Did anyone else notic in that video that a person flashes across the screen head turned and you see his back talking to Michael.  It also appears he's holding a baby.  Meredith maybe?  Ok indulge me for a second.  If joshley was without his regular fast food plus stress he might have dropped some weight just like Anna.  Could this be a Christmas visit? 

[Cerealgirl]

Did anyone else notic in that video that a person flashes across the screen head turned and you see his back talking to Michael.  It also appears he's holding a baby.  Meredith maybe?  Ok indulge me for a second.  If joshley was without his regular fast food plus stress he might have dropped some weight just like Anna.  Could this be a Christmas visit? 

[Guest]

It doesn't look like Josh to me, too much hair.  Even if he lost weight in rehab, it just doesn't look like him to me.

[accountingstar]

Cute Photos of Baby Meredith. Had to share.

 

[halcionne]

16 hours ago, Incognito22 said:

Did anyone else notic in that video that a person flashes across the screen head turned and you see his back talking to Michael.  It also appears he's holding a baby.  Meredith maybe?  Ok indulge me for a second.  If joshley was without his regular fast food plus stress he might have dropped some weight just like Anna.  Could this be a Christmas visit? 

I watched the video one frame at a time--what is my life--and I agree with the poster from the Duggar General thread who thinks that's a Hartono. I'm more concerned about the identity of that poor ten year old with the receding hairline...

Also, Lawton is wearing shorts at this event, which is the same event as the Joe and Carlin sitting thisclosetogether, where Joe is wearing shorts.

[VixenToast]

It looks like it could be JB or JD

[2manyKidzzz]

It is wonderful for families to stick together in times of trouble. Alcoholism, job loss, illness.....but, who is there for Anna? And in truth, who would be there for Jill or Jessa, or any of the females? Anna has no support from any adult within this cult. 

And she believes in the cult because that is all she knows. And now with four children, she is totallyl immersed in that life. I can see how she would feel trapped.  Yet  because of the brainwashing she iswilling to still worship her "headship". What a lot of shit. 

[Trynn]

I can't even go 3 hours without using the bathroom, no matter how dehydrated I am. (Yes I've been to the doctor, they don't give a rip since its not diabetes)

I realize I'm not like most adults, but maybe my bladder is roughly the size of a 6 year olds?

[Valerie3kids]

On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2015 at 3:44 PM, EmCatlyn said:

I hope John David doesn't suffer from motion sickness!  That is not a good thing for a pilot.

As for Anna and the kids, maybe they don't suffer from motion sickness and the plane ride is brief enough that the adults won't need a rest room and the kids out of diapers who might have accidents would have worn pull-ups.

I am glad for the kids that they got to spend time with their Dad for Christmas.  I bet the two oldest at least found the trip worth it.  I wonder what they have been told about why their Dad can't be with them.

Have a friend who is a pilot and gets motion sickness. He takes Bonine when he is flying smaller planes. He is the one who actually got me to try it instead of Dramamine as it has less side effects and lasts longer. So JD could have the problem and either it doesn't bother him since he is the pilot or he may take something to offset it.

The no bathroom thing would make me nervous with small children aboard as they can be unpredictable. Sure, they say they don't need the potty but 5 minutes later they can't hold it any longer!

[SilverBeach]

On 12/22/2015 at 7:24 PM, JenniferJuniper said:

Reality shows always end up eating families in the end.  Take note, Little Couple.

Not if the family isn't flucked up to start with.  I don't think the LC needs to take note of any of that other reality show mess. They don't have to sell themselves because they have money and have too much integrity to do so.  Besides, plenty families are flucked up that have never been on the reality show stage. Having a realty show is not causative to a family getting "eaten up". Has it happened to the Bates? I already posted my thoughts about Bill and Jen so I  will stop here.

[JenniferJuniper]

19 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Not if the family isn't flucked up to start with.  I don't think the LC needs to take note of any of that other reality show mess. They don't have to sell themselves because they have money and have too much integrity to do so.  Besides, plenty families are flucked up that have never been on the reality show stage. Having a realty show is not causative to a family getting "eaten up". Has it happened to the Bates? I already posted my thoughts about Bill and Jen so I  will stop here.

1) We don't know anything about what goes on behind closed doors, pre or post the start of the show.

2)  It doesn't matter what the intentions of the parents are, what matters is that they are forcing their kids to share their private lives with the world.  As kids get older, this becomes more and more intrusive.  Also, as kids become less spontaneous, they are basically required to act via scripted scenes and fed lines.  Think Hannie and Jackson past their cute little kid stage.  

How is this ever a good thing for kids?  Especially when they aren't impoverished to start. Please answer this.

3)  The Bates were not successful on TLC.  I don't know much about their network or them, as I've never run into it or them.  

4)  Successful reality shows do destroy families.  It's happened again and again and if the show has a long run the odds are very high that Jen and Bill will run into marital problems.  

[DarkAnts]

I bet that Anna sees the media as the reason her family is disrupted. JB and M probably fostered this mind set. The media forced Josh to resign from his job in DC and destroy her life. Media broke her family appart with the AM scandal. The media caused Josh to stray from his family.