Duggars By the Dozen - General Discussion -14

[RosyDaisy]

Michelle a role model? OH HAIL NAW! A stray mama cat would make a better role model.

[LilahBelle]

OMG I had no idea there was an extended version out there! I only saw the edited one. This guy is even more of a freaking pervert than I thought!

OMG.. I just saw this. There really is something wrong with him. It's all about sex with him. And then he wonders why his son Josh turned out the way he did. Good Lord. to do that in front of your daughter... I just don't know what to say.

Funny thing is, Jessa is embarrassed, but she's not turning away. I think Ben is. Most kids would just have a fit and turn away. But I guess if you don't appease dad in that house, there's hell to pay.

Every time I see him I feel all skeevy and I want to shower and scrub myself. Now more than ever.

[EmCatlyn]

....

I do not agree though in that Michelle necessarily believed Anna when Anna told her that she had done everything as she "should", regarding her marriage. However much Anna might have protested her innocence, the mere fact that Josh strayed is, in their world, sufficient proof that she cannot be innocent, that she must have done something wrong. I am even afraid that this way of thinking made Anna unable to assert her innocence wholeheartedly, even more so as it is literally impossible to always be joyfully "available". (In that case, I´d even prefer the "Think of England"-advice - as horrible as it may be, at least it is humanly possible to act upon it.) There must have been times during her marriage when Anna was not overly enthusiastic about having sex. While she at the time may have been pretty successful at hiding her emotions from Josh, she herself will still know what she felt and will blame herself for it. (And I´d be very surprised if, at some desperate point during this whole sad affair, she had not admitted as much to Michelle...)

This being said, I see another possibility still for why Michelle might have chosen the present moment to repost this crap (and I´ll freely admit this idea is heavily influenced by wishful thinking on my part): what if the rumours are true and Anna is really considering divorce? In that case, Michelle would know that the public would soon start the discussion about Josh´s affairs all over again. It would accordingly make sense for her to put the blame (again) on Anna (by way of precaution, so to speak), and maybe to even try and scare her from following through with her plans. I agree in that if Anna is at the TTH, she´ll probably not read much of what´s there in the internet. On the other hand, if she is considering divorce, there´s a high probability that she´s in regular contact with Daniel who will keep her informed of what is going on there. If he´s clever he´ll probably choose to never mention Michelle´s blog to his sister but I doubt that this would stop Michelle. In my experience, families who are trying to keep an escaping member in line feel the urgent need to blame and exert pressure, independent of their chances of success and independent even if said member is likely to ever hear about it.

I wasn't saying that Michelle would have believed Anna did everything she could, was available all the time, etc. etc. I pretty much agree with you that whatever Anna had done, it would be considered "not enough" since he strayed. And I agree also that Anna partly blames herself, if nothing else for not knowing how wrong things really were.

What I was trying to say, though, was that there was no point for Michelle to address the post "at" Anna if they had already had a conversation about the topic and Anna had said she had done her best. I mean, why would Michelle assume that Anna needed to hear this message againnow? If Josh were coming home tomorrow, maybe, but it doesn't look like he is.

You may have a point however that maybe the message is aimed not to affect Anna's actions but to make her look bad, to imply to the rest of the world that it is all Anna's fault for not meeting Josh's needs. And it is also possible that Michelle is responding to the divorce rumors. Whether or not Anna is really thinking of divorce, the fact that the media says she is might prompt Michelle to want to send out the message that if the marriage fails, it is her fault.

It is not very smart of Michelle. But we already knew she isn't very smart. ;)

[morri]

Whats this permitted driver? doesit mean in the US they let 14 year olds behind the steering wheel? /can whats his name even look over the wheel and reach the peals at the same time?

Here you can drink boozeat 16(until 18%) attended driving at 17 and license at 18. (but if you do a mistake like speeding or drunk driving you have to do your license again(special rule for 17-21 yo)

[DarkAnts]

Whats this permitted driver? doesit mean in the US they let 14 year olds behind the steering wheel? /can whats his name even look over the wheel and reach the peals at the same time?

Here you can drink boozeat 16(until 18%) attended driving at 17 and license at 18. (but if you do a mistake like speeding or drunk driving you have to do your license again(special rule for 17-21 yo)

It depends on where you live here. Kids in agriculture communities can get a special permit at a younger age but there are strict rules about where they can drive (ie right in the immediate area of the farm) for the most part, it varies by state.

[Fundie Bunny]

But what is the exact reason the driving age is so low and the drinking age so high? You are mature enough to drive a killing machine but not to have a drink? I can't wrap my head around it

[Rescinded and Mended]

I know that at 15, kids can apply for a hardship license permit if they have a parent who is disabled. I didn't know that kids in the country could apply for an agricultural one, but I guess it makes sense since many people take their kids out into the country when they are learning to drive - the more isolated back roads help ensure that the child is less likely to hit something or someone.

[ArmchairTurnip]

Kids in rural US states can often drive at 14 by themselves - the way it works here is that they are given a specific map from school to home and cannot deviate from that route, nor can they carry teenage passengers. This is a law of convenience to offset the fact that school buses often only travel on paved roads, especially in winter, and that many farms are reachable only on gravel roads; plus, most of those kids have been driving farm machinery for years by this point anyway.

The alcohol thing I can't speak to, except to say that if the kids are going to be driving at 14, I'm glad they can't drink at the same time. :)

[MatthewDuggar]

But what is the exact reason the driving age is so low and the drinking age so high? You are mature enough to drive a killing machine but not to have a drink? I can't wrap my head around it

Well, I'm glad both are not combined or we'd be seeing a lot more teen alcohol related car accident deaths.

Taking the "killing machine" panic out of it, there is a difference. While both are luxuries, driving is usually needed for work/school etc to get from point a to b. Drinking alcohol is a way to get high and have fun. Some people need to drive, nobody needs to drink.

[halcionne]

Would love to see what Sharon Osborne had to say about it. I agree, that's the only good thing about this - how much attention and disgust it's getting. Over the past couple of days I've been watching it hit all my feeds, one by one.

Keep talking Duggars; whether or not Anna realizes it, she's getting more and more support, while her in-laws are starting to drown in their own shit.

Found it:

[bBvideo 560,340:350ui1b4]

[/bBvideo]

[morri]

so... where the heck is he going to drive? they arent farming, they dont go to school and he has plenty of adult siblings to do the shopping. i dont see where the need is to drive at 14 when your life revolves around your home. :think:

[singsingsing]

Don't most places have graduated licencing? My guess would be he wants to be able to practice driving, and to get his full licence as soon as he can. Not particularly unusual for a teenager.

[halcionne]

But what is the exact reason the driving age is so low and the drinking age so high? You are mature enough to drive a killing machine but not to have a drink? I can't wrap my head around it

I think it's because Americans generally don't consider cars to be killing machines (but of course they are, imo). Public transportation is pretty bad in most of the US, and a pp already discussed some limits with school bus routes. Also, Americans just plain love cars and being able to go anywhere, any time.

The high drinking age is, I've been told, a result of activism in the 1980s--an attempt to reduce DUI related deaths. Many states' drinking age was 18 until Mothers Against Drunk Drivers campaigned to raise it to 21. I don't actually know much about this, and I don't understand how raising the drinking age would lead to fewer DUIs, so maybe I've got this wrong. But Americans still have a Puritan streak about a mile wide, which I feel informs many of our cultural attitudes toward drinking, ie don't do it, it's bad, cycles of teetotalling and falling off the wagon. The concept of gradually learning to drink in moderation and not considering alcohol as some forbidden fruit to go wild over is completely foreign to many Americans. I see the same attitudes reflected in sex education policies built around abstaining instead of accepting and dealing with the reality that sex is good and fun and will happen, so take appropriate caution. Puritan heritage = sex is bad and dirty and keep young people pure and innocent by not talking about it.

Sorry for the rant; I occasionally notice these remnants of Puritanism in myself, and it's always been an interesting topic for me.

[Fundie Bunny]

When i read rants like that i am thankful to be spanish. The kind of thknking you describe is scary

[halcionne]

From http://www.dmv.org/ar-arkansas/teen-dri ... quirements (I can't tell how legit this site is--I don't think it's an official DMV site):

Learner's Permit Driving Restrictions

With your learner's license, you must drive under the following conditions:

You may only drive while accompanied by a licensed driver at least 21 years old.

You and your passengers must wear seat belts at all times.

You may not use a cell phone or wireless communication device at ANY POINT while driving, unless you need to report an emergency.

Does this mean AR doesn't have seat belt or cell phone laws for all drivers? :?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I think it's because Americans generally don't consider cars to be killing machines (but of course they are, imo). Public transportation is pretty bad in most of the US, and a pp already discussed some limits with school bus routes. Also, Americans just plain love cars and being able to go anywhere, any time.

The high drinking age is, I've been told, a result of activism in the 1980s--an attempt to reduce DUI related deaths. Many states' drinking age was 18 until Mothers Against Drunk Drivers campaigned to raise it to 21. I don't actually know much about this, and I don't understand how raising the drinking age would lead to fewer DUIs, so maybe I've got this wrong. But Americans still have a Puritan streak about a mile wide, which I feel informs many of our cultural attitudes toward drinking, ie don't do it, it's bad, cycles of teetotalling and falling off the wagon. The concept of gradually learning to drink in moderation and not considering alcohol as some forbidden fruit to go wild over is completely foreign to many Americans. I see the same attitudes reflected in sex education policies built around abstaining instead of accepting and dealing with the reality that sex is good and fun and will happen, so take appropriate caution. Puritan heritage = sex is bad and dirty and keep young people pure and innocent by not talking about it.

Sorry for the rant; I occasionally notice these remnants of Puritanism in myself, and it's always been an interesting topic for me.

This is an interesting cliff notes version of the history of drinking age in the US. Couple of interesting take aways for me is brain development at in late adolescence and the effect it's had on driving related fatalities in that age group. From my own experience being a kid with bad judgement and raising kids through this period there is a terrifying phase of invincibility and lousy judgement some go through. I sure did, my kids less...but I am still white knuckling through this age. I know some kids do drink before they are of legal age - maybe most? But if the illegality keeps some from drinking more I'm fine with that (and I'm not always a big fan of government policing individual actions but we have to set the age at something and after the late teens seems to be keeping more kids alive to finish their brain development.)

ETA link: http://www.boston.com/health/2014/07/17 ... story.html

The law worked, too. According to the NIH, drunk-driving accidents have dropped by 50 percent since the law was passed. The greatest proportion of this decline was among 16 to 20 year olds: approximately 37 percent of traffic fatalities in this age group were alcohol related in 2013 compared to more than 75 percent in the 1970s.

[morri]

here you can only start your drivers license half a year before coming of age. so no 2 or 3 year run up.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I knew someone that would let her daughter do the relief driving for her if they were taking long trips across Texas together. She would drive 4 hours on, and then her daughter would do the next 4 hours. This was years ago, but the girl started driving at 12, and she was doing the long distance relief driving by 13. I always wondered if they were ever pulled over by cops with the daughter being caught behind the wheel. I haven't seen them in years, so I have no idea.

[Rubyroo]

Another reason alcohol laws in America are 21 is so alcohol stays out of public schools. In the US, you have until your 21st birthday to graduate high school in public high schools, after that you have to go to an adult school to finish. Its much harder for American teenagers to buy alcohol at the 21 age point than the 18 because high school seniors turn 18 so they could be buying alcohol for underclassman. With the limit at 21, the high schoolers need to know someone much older. Of course, the kids with older siblings don't have a problem and a lot of high schoolers get fake IDs to drink but that's the general idea.

Which I think is a little ridiculous still because the brain doesn't stop developing until 25. If the 21 age point is for brain development, well it should really be 25 because the brain isn't done developing at 21 anyway.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Another reason alcohol laws in America are 21 is so alcohol stays out of public schools. In the US, you have until your 21st birthday to graduate high school in public high schools, after that you have to go to an adult school to finish. Its much harder for American teenagers to buy alcohol at the 21 age point than the 18 because high school seniors turn 18 so they could be buying alcohol for underclassman. With the limit at 21, the high schoolers need to know someone much older. Of course, the kids with older siblings don't have a problem and a lot of high schoolers get fake IDs to drink but that's the general idea.

Which I think is a little ridiculous still because the brain doesn't stop developing until 25. If the 21 age point is for brain development, well it should really be 25 because the brain isn't done developing at 21 anyway.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... 12_18_2012

http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadul ... tml#beyond

Not breaking links because nimh and MIT. From what I've read from other sources the brain isn't completely developed until 25, but by early 20's it's closer to an adult brain than in the late teens. Of course it's a continuum and every individual will be different. I've been lucky and had some pretty responsible kids and my life is certainly not anything more than anecdata but I did see a huge jump in maturity and reasoned judgement after 20 than late teens.

I'd love to see the military enlistment age raised to take this into account. The argument is often that people can join the service before they can drink beer and that's such a legit point...I would just argue for raising enlistment age rather than lowering drinking age.

[devoe364]

Another reason alcohol laws in America are 21 is so alcohol stays out of public schools. In the US, you have until your 21st birthday to graduate high school in public high schools, after that you have to go to an adult school to finish. Its much harder for American teenagers to buy alcohol at the 21 age point than the 18 because high school seniors turn 18 so they could be buying alcohol for underclassman. With the limit at 21, the high schoolers need to know someone much older. Of course, the kids with older siblings don't have a problem and a lot of high schoolers get fake IDs to drink but that's the general idea.

Which I think is a little ridiculous still because the brain doesn't stop developing until 25. If the 21 age point is for brain development, well it should really be 25 because the brain isn't done developing at 21 anyway.

Former teacher here. In Saskatchewan in the 1970s they raised the legal drinking age from 18 to 19 for the exact same reason. Now students here have until they are 23 to graduate from public high school (although in urban areas most high school students are no older than 20 unless they have developmental delays).

The funny thing is, this has done nothing to eliminate teen drinking in the province. Absolutely nothing. Parents provide for their underaged kids more often than not, in the hopes of keeping them from drinking and driving. Unfortunately, we have the highest rate of drunk driving in the country.

I honestly believe that regional attitudes towards alcohol have more of an impact than laws and legal ages. I say this because both Alberta and Manitoba have a legal drinking age of 18, and they have lower drunk driving rates.

[Rubyroo]

Thanks for sharing that, Buffy, that makes sense. And now that you said that, I'm 22 currently and I've seen a world of difference in myself between 18 and now.

And that's a good point about enlistment. Reminds me of when the voting age was 21 and the draft started at 18. I wonder how the country would have turned out if the draft age had been raised instead of the voting age lowered.

[Rubyroo]

Former teacher here. In Saskatchewan in the 1970s they raised the legal drinking age from 18 to 19 for the exact same reason. Now students here have until they are 23 to graduate from public high school (although in urban areas most high school students are no older than 20 unless they have developmental delays).

The funny thing is, this has done nothing to eliminate teen drinking in the province. Absolutely nothing. Parents provide for their underaged kids more often than not, in the hopes of keeping them from drinking and driving. Unfortunately, we have the highest rate of drunk driving in the country.

I honestly believe that regional attitudes towards alcohol have more of an impact than laws and legal ages. I say this because both Alberta and Manitoba have a legal drinking age of 18, and they have lower drunk driving rates.

Regional attitudes do have a much larger impact than the laws. Does Canada prosecute those who provide alcohol to minors? In America, parents can got to jail for providing alcohol to minors. Or at least my town in Wisconsin did, I'm not sure if its national. But I think that made a difference because then the parents were risking their livelihoods if the provide.

[EmCatlyn]

Don't most places have graduated licencing? My guess would be he wants to be able to practice driving, and to get his full licence as soon as he can. Not particularly unusual for a teenager.

Yes, that was what I understood by "permit." In most states you can get a permit to start practicing driving a year before you are old enough to get the license itself. With a permit you can't drive without someone who has a license in the car with you.

On the subject of the 21 year old drinking age, I never saw the sense to it since the kids get the alcoholic beverages anyway.

And I agree that it makes more logical sense to restrict the driving until age 21 and allow some drinking (supervised, beer and wine only, etc) while younger-- but as someone else has pointed out, it is often necessary for families to have their kids driving, but drink is a luxury/pleasure.

[DarkAnts]

There is also a different culture here with regards to alcohol. Parents are told to never let their children drink. They don't usually see adults drinking and there is a stigma associated with drinking in general. This is why robotripping is popular in Utah. Teens can easily get ahold of cough syrup but not alcohol so they use that to experiment with.

My understanding is that parts if not all p of Europe have a different alcohol culture. Kids watch their parents consume alcohol at dinners. The kids might get a chance to sip it on special occasions. Teens can drink alcolic beverages like beer and wine but have to wait until they are older to drink distiller spirits. I know in Switzerland, you can drink beer and wine at age 16 but are legally not allowed to drink distiller spirits until they are 21.