Rant on Islam comments

[OkToBeTakei]

I have stated this already. human rights, free thought, democracy, free enterprise...

Oh wait it's coming back to me. You are the poster of the 'brown people' religion comment and if I recall 'liked' Latraviata's lovely little KKK post. I probably should not have asked about values.

[latraviata]

And last but not least!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... zie-speak/

[formergothardite]

The problem isn't that people here don't want to discuss problems with some Islamic beliefs. I'm just not going to act like all Muslim people are awful and that they are worse than other religions. I am also not going to act like anti-Muslim propaganda or anti-immigration propaganda is something to be taken seriously.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I have stated this already. human rights, free thought, democracy, free enterprise...

Unless the human in question in Muslim?

With "free thought" comes "freedom to believe" (and its inverse, freedom not to believe). Claiming to want equality for all but continually claiming that Islam in itself is bad, Muslims are dangerous...Pretty damned hypocritical.

Religion in itself is not the problem. People who use that religion as an excuse to hurt others are the problem.

[Terrie]

According to the Koran is legitimate as we can see in the various islamic countries.

Honor killings are a cultural thing, not an Islamic thing. They are also found in Hindu society. And, please, cite the portion of the Koran that dictates honor killings.

Simply, put, I am as horrified by honor killing as I am by any killing. The idea that I'm supposed to be more horrified by honor killing simply because it's done by Muslims is nonsense.

Now, if you want to discuss the lack of legal consequences due to a defense of honor killing, that's a different topic.

[latraviata]

Honor killings are a cultural thing, not an Islamic thing. They are also found in Hindu society. And, please, cite the portion of the Koran that dictates honor killings.

Simply, put, I am as horrified by honor killing as I am by any killing. The idea that I'm supposed to be more horrified by honor killing simply because it's done by Muslims is nonsense.

Now, if you want to discuss the lack of legal consequences due to a defense of honor killing, that's a different topic.

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... lings.html

[Terrie]

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... lings.html

Indirectly supports is not the same as dictates. I could probably come up with Bible verses that indirectly support honor killing, but that doesn't make it part of Christianity. If honor killing is part of Islam, as you seem to think, why is it largely confined to Middle Eastern Muslims and not equally found among African and Asian Muslims?

This is exactly what irritates me about generalizations. We can't actually have a discussion about the use of Islam to justify honor killings in the Middle East, because you've already declared it's all part of your monolithic boogeyman of Islam.

[PregnantPornStar]

Oh wait it's coming back to me. You are the poster of the 'brown people' religion comment and if I recall 'liked' Latraviata's lovely little KKK post. I probably should not have asked about values.

The "brown people" thing is a red herring. Stop.

I have given examples of issues. Notably pew research. The fact that over 50% of Muslims support sharia is alarming. The fact that there are over 360 million Muslims that support Jihad is alarming. Maybe you don't find these things as worrisome as me. I would also argue that is alarming.

Don't ask me to prove you wrong. Prove yourself right. Not with anecdotes. They can be part of a conversation, I am not saying they cannot, but they don't prove your point.

What is wrong in Islam? The fact that a woman is worth half that of a man would be one example. So, discuss? Does that attitude/be

If suddenly vanish when crossing a border? How long do we give to assimilate? Do we take this to be a cultural difference and respect that?

Changing and rewriting religious text doesn't seem to be the answer, so how do you move people away from these core beliefs and help them assimilate?

[PregnantPornStar]

Unless the human in question in Muslim?

With "free thought" comes "freedom to believe" (and its inverse, freedom not to believe). Claiming to want equality for all but continually claiming that Islam in itself is bad, Muslims are dangerous...Pretty damned hypocritical.

Religion in itself is not the problem. People who use that religion as an excuse to hurt others are the problem.

Freedom to believe that women are not equal (which comes with a large list of issues) is not the same as freedom to act upon these beliefs. You can believe all fucking day that a woman should be covered and she should be beat for disobeying her husband. Acting on that shit is not acceptable.

[OkToBeTakei]

The "brown people" thing is a red herring. Stop.

I have given examples of issues. Notably pew research. The fact that over 50% of Muslims support sharia is alarming. The fact that there are over 360 million Muslims that support Jihad is alarming. Maybe you don't find these things as worrisome as me. I would also argue that is alarming.

Don't ask me to prove you wrong. Prove yourself right. Not with anecdotes. They can be part of a conversation, I am not saying they cannot, but they don't prove your point.

What is wrong in Islam? The fact that a woman is worth half that of a man would be one example. So, discuss? Does that attitude/be

If suddenly vanish when crossing a border? How long do we give to assimilate? Do we take this to be a cultural difference and respect that?

Changing and rewriting religious text doesn't seem to be the answer, so how do you move people away from these core beliefs and help them assimilate?

I don't believe you are aware of any 'point' I am trying to make. You are too concerned with making yours by any means and completely lacking any awareness at all beyond that. All it does is prevent intelligent discussion. Countless times on this thread posters have expressed their desire to explore issues. Does it not occur to you that the answer is not ISLAM EVIL LISTEN TO ME ALL OF THEM ARE COMING. It's like some patronising public announcement. A particularly unintelligent one.

In a previous post you stated that people are too 'afraid' to have the conversation. No people are willing to have the conversation, people want to know how to stop radicalisation of youth, they want to know what drives ISIS etc etc. What you really meant was why are people afraid to say Islam is evil, all Muslims are evil because that is what you believe. Not the same thing.

Again I can be only repeat what others have said, that your constant generalisation of Muslim people is ignorant. How you cannot see this is quite stunning.

[PregnantPornStar]

I don't believe you are aware of any 'point' I am trying to make. You are too concerned with making yours by any means and completely lacking any awareness at all beyond that. All it does is prevent intelligent discussion. Countless times on this thread posters have expressed their desire to explore issues. Does it not occur to you that the answer is not ISLAM EVIL LISTEN TO ME ALL OF THEM ARE COMING. It's like some patronising public announcement. A particularly unintelligent one.

In a previous post you stated that people are too 'afraid' to have the conversation. No people are willing to have the conversation, people want to know how to stop radicalisation of youth, they want to know what drives ISIS etc etc. What you really meant was why are people afraid to say Islam is evil, all Muslims are evil because that is what you believe. Not the same thing.

Again I can be only repeat what others have said, that your constant generalisation of Muslim people is ignorant. How you cannot see this is quite stunning.

Okay....you are being irrational again.

However, I will ignore all of that and discuss. What drives ISIS and how to stop the radicalization of youth.

Stopping radicalization is a tough one. When you have the Muslim Brotherhood, Sharia, ISIS, to name a few factors, the ability to radicalize is pretty strong. A culture that certainly doesn't discourage radicalization is not helpful. Education needs an overhaul, but that means attitudes of free thought need to be somehow interjected as common place. It is sadly a vicious circle and one that, Islam itself, makes tricky to rectify.

I'll touch on ISIS tomorrow. I need to go to bed.

[OkToBeTakei]

Okay....you are being irrational again.

However, I will ignore all of that and discuss. What drives ISIS and how to stop the radicalization of youth.

Stopping radicalization is a tough one. When you have the Muslim Brotherhood, Sharia, ISIS, to name a few factors, the ability to radicalize is pretty strong. A culture that certainly doesn't discourage radicalization is not helpful. Education needs an overhaul, but that means attitudes of free thought need to be somehow interjected as common place. It is sadly a vicious circle and one that, Islam itself, makes tricky to rectify.

I'll touch on ISIS tomorrow. I need to go to bed.

:lol:

Oh boy the stupid is strong.

Word salad.

[morri]

One thing that woul be very helpful would be that foreign nation stop meddling in their affairs. One big problem of the middle east is that it has been meddled with since... the 18 th century? English,German, Americans..

[Whoosh]

Okay....you are being irrational again.

However, I will ignore all of that and discuss. What drives ISIS and how to stop the radicalization of youth.

Stopping radicalization is a tough one. When you have the Muslim Brotherhood, Sharia, ISIS, to name a few factors, the ability to radicalize is pretty strong. A culture that certainly doesn't discourage radicalization is not helpful. Education needs an overhaul, but that means attitudes of free thought need to be somehow interjected as common place. It is sadly a vicious circle and one that, Islam itself, makes tricky to rectify.

I'll touch on ISIS tomorrow. I need to go to bed.

This response actually inspired RAGE in me. So much so that I had to step away for quite a while and take a walk - then have a bit of a cry - then some chocolate - before I could come back and respond. First, I want to make it clear that my reaction is obviously entirely my problem. Honestly, the response from PregnangPornStar in and of itself is simply not helpful. My reaction to that response is my issue to work through. However, I want to try to explain my reaction so that maybe this conversation could perhaps take a turn toward something possibly more useful.

In about 2002 an 8 year old boy emigrated with most of his family to the US under political asylum. He became a permanent resident when he was about 13 and a Naturalized US Citizen on September 11, 2012 when he was 19. From 2009 to 2011, I lived across from his high school. I did not "know" him, but I knew him by sight from the local convenience store, the gym, and the neighborhood in general. He went to a diverse, multicultural high school with many Muslim students. Most would describe him as I would from my fleeting observations - a typical AMERICAN teenager. His older brother had a very different history.

After I moved out of the neighborhood in 2011, I did not see this young man again. Not until his face was plastered on front pages from one end of the globe to the other. This young man, now 22 years of age, currently sits in supermax awaiting execution. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, along with his brother, planted the bombs that killed 3 and injured hundreds, rocking the city of Boston, this nation, and to some extent much of the world. He was 19 at the time and had been a US citizen for about 7 months. He had lived here over a decade (over half his young life).

So my question is this - what the fuck do we do with that? How do we engage in a productive dialogue that deals with that reality? This young man was in college at the time of the bombing. Many of his high school and college friends, many of whom are American Muslims (many of whom also emigrated under asylum), are still in shock. How do we deal with THAT? I know we are largely talking about issues overseas, but the issue of stopping the radicalization of youth is relevant everywhere. I have no answers, but would like to learn what I can from this dialogue. FJ has so many knowledgable people and there are so few places people can actually engage in intelligent conversation.

Edited to try to do better

[Clementine]

This response actually inspired RAGE in me. So much so that I had to step away for quite a while and take a walk - then have a bit of a cry - then some chocolate - before I could come back and respond. First, I want to make it clear that my reaction is obviously entirely my problem. Honestly, the response from PregnangPornStar in and of itself is simply not helpful. My reaction to that response is my issue to work through. However, I want to try to explain my reaction so that maybe this conversation could perhaps take a turn toward something possibly more useful.

In about 2002 an 8 year old boy emigrated with most of his family to the US under political asylum. He became a permanent resident when he was about 13 and a Naturalized US Citizen on September 11, 2012 when he was 19. From 2009 to 2011, I lived across from his high school. I did not "know" him, but I knew him by sight from the local convenience store, the gym, and the neighborhood in general. He went to a diverse, multicultural high school with many Muslim students. Most would describe him as I would from my fleeting observations - a typical AMERICAN teenager. His older brother had a very different history.

After I moved out of the neighborhood in 2011, I did not see this young man again. Not until his face was plastered on front pages from one end of the globe to the other. This young man, now 22 years of age, currently sits in supermax awaiting execution. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, along with his brother, planted the bombs that killed 3 and injured hundreds, rocking the city of Boston, this nation, and to some extent much of the world. He was 19 at the time and had been a US citizen for about 7 months. He had lived here over a decade (over half his young life).

So my question is this - what the fuck do we do with that? How do we engage in a productive dialogue that deals with that reality? This young man was in college at the time of the bombing. Many of his high school and college friends, many of whom are American Muslims (many of whom also emigrated under asylum), are still in shock. How do we deal with THAT? I know we are largely talking about issues overseas, but the issue of stopping the radicalization of youth is relevant everywhere. I have no answers, but would like to learn what I can from this dialogue. FJ has so many knowledgable people and there are so few places people can actually engage in intelligent conversation.

Edited to try to do better

It must have been surreal to have been that close to a person who later on became an infamous terrorist.

It's a really interesting subject. I'm not super up to date on the Tsarnaev brothers but what I have been reading is that they went to a mosque in the Boston area where they started to become radicalized. I don't know if it was because of what was preached in the mosque or if "recruiters" used the mosque to get in touch with people, with or without the knowledge of the imams.

I googled and it's apparently this mosque:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Society_of_Boston

It's quite often like that in Sweden too - the people who have become radicalized have gone to certain mosques and/or live in the same area. It's well known that some mosques hire or invite preachers who have a very radical and extreme view and preach about doing jihad in the sense of using arms. When you look at the Swedes who have left to country to do armed jihad, fight for IS or the Al-Nusra front the majority of them (the ones that are known) have connections to a handful of mosques.

Here are two that have been breeding ground for terrorists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandbergen_Mosque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellevue_Mosque

There are also recruiters who travel the country to get in touch with people who visit the mosques.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wire ... or-arrest/

And a few former imams have returned to their home country to join terrorist organizations, so I guess that what they preached before they left wasn't peace, love and understanding. The most famous are Fuad Shongole/Fuad Qalaf who was an imam in Rinkeby north of Stockholm before he became a top name in Al-Shabab in Somalia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuad_Qalaf

And Haytham Rahmeh, a former imam in Stockholm who was caught smuggling weapons to "rebels" in Syria.

http://www.thelocal.se/20131031/swedish ... ria-report

"Rebels" = terrorist groups. The Mosque is tied to The Muslim Brotherhood and supports the Al-Nusra front, the Syrian branch of Al-Qaeda.

I think that if you do your own research about what mosques the Tsarnaev brothers went to, what they preach and what organizations they have ties to to you'll find the answer there.

There has also been a number of cases where people go abroad to training camps run by terrorist groups and come back even more radicalized and with the skill to build bombs and use weapons. There have been reports that one or two of the Tsarnaev brothers went to islamic "training camps" in Dagestan and that Russian authorities warned the US about them.

And also the Internet is a great help for recruiting terrorists. Al Qaeda issues a magazine with tips and tricks about bomb making, hate preachers can easily spread their sermons through all kinds of channels, terrorists in Syria are writing about their lives on Facebook, Twitter and ask.me

The sermons of Anwar Al-Awlaki, the Al Qaeda cleric, can be downloaded on an app and at least one person from Sweden who is fighting for IS said in an interview with Swedish Television that the sermons were part of his radicalization.

There are also parents who have radical views and who see it as an honour to have kids that fight for the Umma and maybe become martyrs. One of the first jihadists from Sweden that joined IS was "Abu Bakr" who later married a British convert, Khadijah Dare, in Syria, a bride that his mother picked out for him. They were portrayed in a program on British Channel 4:

http://www.channel4.com/news/syria-rebe ... eign-assad

His parents seemed to have been a big influence on him to go to Syria and his father was interviewed after the son was killed and was proud to have a martyr son.

[OkToBeTakei]

This response actually inspired RAGE in me. So much so that I had to step away for quite a while and take a walk - then have a bit of a cry - then some chocolate - before I could come back and respond. First, I want to make it clear that my reaction is obviously entirely my problem. Honestly, the response from PregnangPornStar in and of itself is simply not helpful. My reaction to that response is my issue to work through. However, I want to try to explain my reaction so that maybe this conversation could perhaps take a turn toward something possibly more useful.

In about 2002 an 8 year old boy emigrated with most of his family to the US under political asylum. He became a permanent resident when he was about 13 and a Naturalized US Citizen on September 11, 2012 when he was 19. From 2009 to 2011, I lived across from his high school. I did not "know" him, but I knew him by sight from the local convenience store, the gym, and the neighborhood in general. He went to a diverse, multicultural high school with many Muslim students. Most would describe him as I would from my fleeting observations - a typical AMERICAN teenager. His older brother had a very different history.

After I moved out of the neighborhood in 2011, I did not see this young man again. Not until his face was plastered on front pages from one end of the globe to the other. This young man, now 22 years of age, currently sits in supermax awaiting execution. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, along with his brother, planted the bombs that killed 3 and injured hundreds, rocking the city of Boston, this nation, and to some extent much of the world. He was 19 at the time and had been a US citizen for about 7 months. He had lived here over a decade (over half his young life).

So my question is this - what the fuck do we do with that? How do we engage in a productive dialogue that deals with that reality? This young man was in college at the time of the bombing. Many of his high school and college friends, many of whom are American Muslims (many of whom also emigrated under asylum), are still in shock. How do we deal with THAT? I know we are largely talking about issues overseas, but the issue of stopping the radicalization of youth is relevant everywhere. I have no answers, but would like to learn what I can from this dialogue. FJ has so many knowledgable people and there are so few places people can actually engage in intelligent conversation.

Edited to try to do better

I feel you. Radicalisation within different demographics will look different to different people and the ways to address it quite obviously go beyond PregnantPorn's asinine 'let me educate you about radicalisation in five lines of nothingness where I present no actual substance to the discussion just my ignorant rinse repeat .....beliefs.'

It is not worth getting a rage on. Pity yes. Rage no. To cheer you up we have ISIS 101 coming up....I'm going with three lines but maybe I'm being generous.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 54062.html

Of some interest to you maybe. Certainly provokes thought.

[Whoosh]

I feel you. Radicalisation within different demographics will look different to different people and the ways to address it quite obviously go beyond PregnantPorn's asinine 'let me educate you about radicalisation in five lines of nothingness where I present no actual substance to the discussion just my ignorant rinse repeat .....beliefs.'

It is not worth getting a rage on. Pity yes. Rage no. To cheer you up we have ISIS 101 coming up....I'm going with three lines but maybe I'm being generous.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 54062.html

Of some interest to you maybe. Certainly provokes thought.

Thank you OKToBeTakei. I will certainly check that out. To clarify, although I know a small amount about what went on with this young man's brother which led to radicalization, I am basically woefully ignorant on these issues. I am not exactly sure what it is that kicks up my rage response at times, but I do think it is the fact that so many do try to oversimplify this massive and complex issue and they typically do it in an "othering" fashion. It is not a rage directed towards others, but towards the way some view the problem. To me, this young man was not at all "other".

This was just one of the neighbor boys from down the road.

Anyway - I am really over my head in terms of discussing much here. I much appreciate the link.

[Curious]

I admit I haven't read most of the last 2 pages because I have decide I'm simply to stupid to understand this thread.

I feel like I asked an honest question that I was actually interested in and trying to understand and got told "because Mohammad" (rather than the usual "because Jesus."

Since I obviously just don't grasp the difference that is clear to other people, I feel like I am not contributing to this conversation at all, so am bowing out for now.

Good luck to everyone else that has more constitution for this than I do right now.

[latraviata]

It must have been surreal to have been that close to a person who later on became an infamous terrorist.

It's a really interesting subject. I'm not super up to date on the Tsarnaev brothers but what I have been reading is that they went to a mosque in the Boston area where they started to become radicalized. I don't know if it was because of what was preached in the mosque or if "recruiters" used the mosque to get in touch with people, with or without the knowledge of the imams.

I googled and it's apparently this mosque:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Society_of_Boston

It's quite often like that in Sweden too - the people who have become radicalized have gone to certain mosques and/or live in the same area. It's well known that some mosques hire or invite preachers who have a very radical and extreme view and preach about doing jihad in the sense of using arms. When you look at the Swedes who have left to country to do armed jihad, fight for IS or the Al-Nusra front the majority of them (the ones that are known) have connections to a handful of mosques.

Here are two that have been breeding ground for terrorists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandbergen_Mosque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellevue_Mosque

There are also recruiters who travel the country to get in touch with people who visit the mosques.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wire ... or-arrest/

And a few former imams have returned to their home country to join terrorist organizations, so I guess that what they preached before they left wasn't peace, love and understanding. The most famous are Fuad Shongole/Fuad Qalaf who was an imam in Rinkeby north of Stockholm before he became a top name in Al-Shabab in Somalia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuad_Qalaf

And Haytham Rahmeh, a former imam in Stockholm who was caught smuggling weapons to "rebels" in Syria.

http://www.thelocal.se/20131031/swedish ... ria-report

"Rebels" = terrorist groups. The Mosque is tied to The Muslim Brotherhood and supports the Al-Nusra front, the Syrian branch of Al-Qaeda.

I think that if you do your own research about what mosques the Tsarnaev brothers went to, what they preach and what organizations they have ties to to you'll find the answer there.

There has also been a number of cases where people go abroad to training camps run by terrorist groups and come back even more radicalized and with the skill to build bombs and use weapons. There have been reports that one or two of the Tsarnaev brothers went to islamic "training camps" in Dagestan and that Russian authorities warned the US about them.

And also the Internet is a great help for recruiting terrorists. Al Qaeda issues a magazine with tips and tricks about bomb making, hate preachers can easily spread their sermons through all kinds of channels, terrorists in Syria are writing about their lives on Facebook, Twitter and ask.me

The sermons of Anwar Al-Awlaki, the Al Qaeda cleric, can be downloaded on an app and at least one person from Sweden who is fighting for IS said in an interview with Swedish Television that the sermons were part of his radicalization.

There are also parents who have radical views and who see it as an honour to have kids that fight for the Umma and maybe become martyrs. One of the first jihadists from Sweden that joined IS was "Abu Bakr" who later married a British convert, Khadijah Dare, in Syria, a bride that his mother picked out for him. They were portrayed in a program on British Channel 4:

http://www.channel4.com/news/syria-rebe ... eign-assad

His parents seemed to have been a big influence on him to go to Syria and his father was interviewed after the son was killed and was proud to have a martyr son.

Who is able to solve the problem of radicalisation? So far, despite all efforts, apparently no one.

If you need to solve problems, you must first acknowledge the problem, even if it means the inconvenient truth, recognise what Islam really means, what effect it has on its followers and society. Mosques are built with funds from the Arab countries and in the Dutch case with government subsidies that should be stopped. Jihadies leaving for Syria (from the Netherlands about 160 in November 2014), can not home and their nationality should be taken, declare them persona non grata and not give them social benefits when they come back to the Netherlands, that happens!

The integration is particularly unsuccessful, because governments, especially the Dutch have been too easy to set requirements in the sense that everyone must adhere to this law, no exceptions, freedom of expression, equality between men and women etc. We have all glossed over under the guise of cultural and religious differences and the fear of discriminating minorities. It would be good to treat the Muslims as full responsible citizens with everything that implies and stop the politically correct idea that they are needy and victims and that happens! That is condescending and apologists seem not to understand that. The failure of integration is to a large extent on the policy makers themselves. We have become a country of immigration the last decades, policymakers could better learn how to deal with immigration from countries, nations or continents such as for example the USA.

And something we seem to agree upon is stay out of their internal conflicts on the spot.

Solutions, I wish I had them, but a huge flood of new refugees/fortune seekers will not help the situation at all, not the Dutch and Western European society in general nor there newcomers themselves.

[Curious]

Okay, you decided that I am an antitheist, tell me, is that better or worse than a racist?

I missed this post before posting my previous post, so I'm going to answer it.

I'm saying you fit the definition of an antitheist based on your own words, which I quoted.

IMO, you can be an atheist or antitheist and not a racist, so I'm not sure why you are taking the term in a negative manner. They aren't mutually exclusive terms, though, unless I am again missing something.

I was just trying to answer the question "who said I was antitheist" and that answer based, on the definition, is: you said you were.

[latraviata]

I missed this post before posting my previous post, so I'm going to answer it.

I'm saying you fit the definition of an antitheist based on your own words, which I quoted.

IMO, you can be an atheist or antitheist and not a racist, so I'm not sure why you are taking the term in a negative manner. They aren't mutually exclusive terms, though, unless I am again missing something.

I was just trying to answer the question "who said I was antitheist" and that answer based, on the definition, is: you said you were.

Unfortunately you completely miss the irony, what else is new. Look at the post of billions of muslims are the same.........I don't feel the need to explain myself about what is irony, cynicism and the like.

[Whoosh]

Clementine, thank you for your response. I will work my way through those links.

[Curious]

Unfortunately you completely miss the irony, what else is new. Look at the post of billions of muslims are the same.........I don't feel the need to explain myself about what is irony, cynicism and the like.

uh, I am a fairly well educated adult. I certainly understand what irony and cynicism are. I also understand they are two different things.

You're right, I don't see the "irony" in your post. I guess I could see it being cynicism, but since I was trying to have an ACTUAL conversation and wasn't "calling you names" or anything like that, I didn't understand why you'd post that sort of response in response to my seriously trying to understand your points/explain why what was said was said.

SIlly me, I guess.

Just because this is a snark forum doesn't mean EVERY post is snark. I thought I explained that in my original post, but apparently that was lost on you.

[latraviata]

uh, I am a fairly well educated adult. I certainly understand what irony and cynicism are. I also understand they are two different things.

You're right, I don't see the "irony" in your post. I guess I could see it being cynicism, but since I was trying to have an ACTUAL conversation and wasn't "calling you names" or anything like that, I didn't understand why you'd post that sort of response in response to my seriously trying to understand your points/explain why what was said was said.

SIlly me, I guess.

Just because this is a snark forum doesn't mean EVERY post is snark. I thought I explained that in my original post, but apparently that was lost on you.

Two different things? Are you sure? well thank you for clearing that up!!!!!

That is sarcasm......

[Curious]

Two different things? Are you sure? well thank you for clearing that up!!!!!

That is sarcasm......

You are the one that first said I didn't understand the irony of your post and then said you didn't feel the need to explain irony, cynicism, and the like.

Maybe it's just a language barrier type of thing happening, but you seemed to be suggesting they were the same thing in your last sentence. You did not bring up cynicism until that point.

If you'd said I didn't see the irony/cynicism in your post my response would have been different.

I tend to read what people write and expect it to mean what they mean.

Again, silly me, I guess.