Rant on Islam comments

[PregnantPornStar]

Mecca and VR:

My non-Muslim FIL was pulled over for almost 2 hours when crossing the border at Niagara Falls several years ago, because he's a brown guy born in Iraq. This is a good example of why prejudice is so toxic. There is absolutely nothing gained in security from going after people because of how they look, the only result is a lot of fear and hatred. A good chunk of my husband's family would get the same reaction.

I don't know that a couple hours at the border is that absurd given that there was an ongoing war at the time....

Also, to be noted, an Israeli stamp (or passport) will prevent you from being able to enter multiple countries.

[OkToBeTakei]

History withstanding which as I said repeatedly , speaks for itself. It's still important to note that NOW it serves no purpose and in fact extremism poses a threat to the Saudi regime. Kind of a hoist with their own petard.

[formergothardite]

Is being attacked because you are mistaken for being Muslim and the person lumps all Muslims in with extremist absurd enough for you? Being gunned down? That is the problem with insisting on acting like all Muslims are extremist, it just fuels the hate and makes people think that all Muslims are dangerous.

[Terrie]

I don't know that a couple hours at the border is that absurd given that there was an ongoing war at the time....

Also, to be noted, an Israeli stamp (or passport) will prevent you from being able to enter multiple countries.

Wow, you just spoke out in support of racial profiling. Congrats, you're not convincing anyone of how reasonable your position is. :angry-banghead:

[VelociRapture]

I don't know that a couple hours at the border is that absurd given that there was an ongoing war at the time....

Also, to be noted, an Israeli stamp (or passport) will prevent you from being able to enter multiple countries.

When done due to racial profiling it is absurd and a massive problem. If they were pulling over every single driver going through for two hours it would be another story entirely. From the sounds of it though, that isn't what happened - and that sort of action is just wrong in my opinion.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know that a couple hours at the border is that absurd given that there was an ongoing war at the time....

Also, to be noted, an Israeli stamp (or passport) will prevent you from being able to enter multiple countries.

My FIL knew the reason. He just made sure to always travel with his NEXUS pass after that.

Color and country of birth were the only "risk factors" for my FIL. He's been living in Canada since 1964, and travels with a Canadian passport. He was around 70 years old when this incident took place. He's always been a law-abiding citizen. He's been to the US plenty of times, and has also traveled to Israel. He fled Iraq as a child and has never been back. He had no love for Saddam Hussein - in fact, a scud missile destroyed an apartment directly across the street from his brother in a Tel Aviv suburb during the first Gulf War.

This incident drove home to me, though, that my husband, kids and I have a certain amount of privilege that comes from not just being Canadian, but being born in Canada and not "presenting" as anything else. The sort of casual border crossing that we do - in this case, the family was simply in Niagara Falls and hoping to have dinner at The Olive Garden, then do some shopping - wasn't possible for my FIL without the extra clearance.

[OkToBeTakei]

Wow, you just spoke out in support of racial profiling. Congrats, you're not convincing anyone of how reasonable your position is. :angry-banghead:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-sto ... 81010.html

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I don't know that a couple hours at the border is that absurd given that there was an ongoing war at the time....

Also, to be noted, an Israeli stamp (or passport) will prevent you from being able to enter multiple countries.

It depends on the level of respect of his rights and dignity that was granted to him during those 2 hours and on the reason they had to justify that procedure, because it's quite unfair to trouble people on a whim or for a prejudice.

IMO Israel as a country (I am not talking of Jews but of a country among all the other countries) isn't above reproach in this matter.

[PregnantPornStar]

Wow, you just spoke out in support of racial profiling. Congrats, you're not convincing anyone of how reasonable your position is. :angry-banghead:

Um, no. I spoke about why delayed entry wasn't shocking and directly related it to OIF. It isn't like the U.S. was denying entry to Iraqis.

If there is conflict and you have links to the nation that has conflict, you aren't going to be breezed through customs. Especially since 9/11.

Otherwise, why not have open borders?

[PregnantPornStar]

My FIL knew the reason. He just made sure to always travel with his NEXUS pass after that.

Color and country of birth were the only "risk factors" for my FIL. He's been living in Canada since 1964, and travels with a Canadian passport. He was around 70 years old when this incident took place. He's always been a law-abiding citizen. He's been to the US plenty of times, and has also traveled to Israel. He fled Iraq as a child and has never been back. He had no love for Saddam Hussein - in fact, a scud missile destroyed an apartment directly across the street from his brother in a Tel Aviv suburb during the first Gulf War.

This incident drove home to me, though, that my husband, kids and I have a certain amount of privilege that comes from not just being Canadian, but being born in Canada and not "presenting" as anything else. The sort of casual border crossing that we do - in this case, the family was simply in Niagara Falls and hoping to have dinner at The Olive Garden, then do some shopping - wasn't possible for my FIL without the extra clearance.

I am not suggesting he is anything but an upstanding citizen. At all. I was just stating that I didn't find it absurd or shocking, given the situation at the time.

Believe me, I grew up pretty close to the Canadian border and entry into Canada is vastly different than entry into the U.S. In all fairness, I haven't entered into Canada in recent years, but I have entered the U.S.

I actually hold two U.S. Passports due to us being stationed overseas...it gets a little complicated and I know people who have wound up stuck at customs for ages because of the length of time out of the U.S. and stamps being confusing. (I am really simplifying the situations). Adding the service member to the mix can make it more confusing, plus, not all service members end up with their second passport, whereas defendants need them. Again, I am simplifying the whole situation, but the point is, entry into the U.S. is often a PITA.

I generally despise going through customs into the states because if there isn't an issue with me, there is someone ahead of me.

I certainly hope he was treated well during the process.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhs-trip

[latraviata]

I am not suggesting he is anything but an upstanding citizen. At all. I was just stating that I didn't find it absurd or shocking, given the situation at the time.

Believe me, I grew up pretty close to the Canadian border and entry into Canada is vastly different than entry into the U.S. In all fairness, I haven't entered into Canada in recent years, but I have entered the U.S.

I actually hold two U.S. Passports due to us being stationed overseas...it gets a little complicated and I know people who have wound up stuck at customs for ages because of the length of time out of the U.S. and stamps being confusing. (I am really simplifying the situations). Adding the service member to the mix can make it more confusing, plus, not all service members end up with their second passport, whereas defendants need them. Again, I am simplifying the whole situation, but the point is, entry into the U.S. is often a PITA.

I generally despise going through customs into the states because if there isn't an issue with me, there is someone ahead of me.

I certainly hope he was treated well during the process.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhs-trip

I traveled quite a bit and in my experience customs officials are usually not the most subtle professional group.

Security rules have been significantly increased since 9/11.

I traveled at the invitation of one of my sisters to the Emirates in 2013

In my hand luggage I had a small silver tube with ashes of late my youngest son. I was immediately picked out of the line and was asked in very unfriendly gruff tone, what it was and I told them. I was put apart and interrogated while the contents of the tube was viewed and violently opened because the cap and the tube were amalgamated. They have thrown away the ashes, I got the ruined empty tube back and was allowed to continue after they had checked the removable knob of my cain. Not a pleasant experience and I was almost in tears. Afterwards I realised that it was a pretty stupid thing to take something like that under the current circumstances. I obviously was not judged on my Arab looks , which seems indeed a very unpleasant experience to say the least. The rules have been tightened for obvious reasons and has unfortunately extremely unpleasant consequences.

[PregnantPornStar]

Well, according to Wiki, Salafism considers Wahabbism to be a derogatory description of their sect.

Well, when you look at the link to where it says that in wiki, I think that was a rather simplified explanation of that. I also don't know if the biggest concern when discussing Salafism is using "deragatory" names. Especially since Wahhabism does exist and and the very least, it seems to be up for debate if the two are now the same thing. Truly, I am pretty sure everyone here has agreed that it is okay to criticize extremists.

Which leads me to my question

I would also like a detailed understanding of what PregnantPornStar means by Wahabbism. Or should I say her understanding of it :think:

I would also like a detailed understanding of what OkToBeTakei means by extremist. Or should I say her understanding of it :think:

Maybe Salafism (and/or Wahhabism) doesn't fit your understanding of it?

[sawasdee]

OKTBT - thanks for a seriously good link.

[OkToBeTakei]

Well, when you look at the link to where it says that in wiki, I think that was a rather simplified explanation of that. I also don't know if the biggest concern when discussing Salafism is using "deragatory" names. Especially since Wahhabism does exist and and the very least, it seems to be up for debate if the two are now the same thing. Truly, I am pretty sure everyone here has agreed that it is okay to criticize extremists.

Which leads me to my question

I would also like a detailed understanding of what OkToBeTakei means by extremist. Or should I say her understanding of it :think:

Maybe Salafism (and/or Wahhabism) doesn't fit your understanding of it?

Why no because that would be a generalisation. There is no hope though that you will understand this *shrug*

[FundieFarmer]

Do extremists in Saudi Arabia play a part in the machine. I would say yes. Is it more or less than extremists in other countries? I don't know, but it would be incorrect and just a bit too convenient to say yes in the bigger picture.

Here's my take on that, having worked with Saudi officials for a year, including members of the royal family. I would say that Saudi does have a fairly equal part in the machine, but in a different way– most of the Saudi support is from funding from several elite neo-Salafi families (ex, Bin Laden family). There is no massive national support for the violent actions of those families, despite their social position in the nation. On the whole, during King Adbullah's death, Saudi was trying (ever so slowly) to move toward stepping away from that extremism in order to be a major world player on the economic forefront in areas other than oil. It will need to in order to be competitive in world markets.

However, it is possible that will change based on King Abdullah's death. Upon his passing, many people became concerned as his successor, King Salman, was known to hold more stringent views on religious enforcement. Salman is an Al Saud and is known not to negotiate. It remains to be seen what his position will be.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Why no because that would be a generalisation. There is no hope though that you will understand this *shrug*

Here's a pretty good article setting out the connection between Salafism and Salafist jihadists: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /sala.html

Salafist jihadists grew more prominant in Europe throughout the 1990s. Their views reach back to the Muslim Brotherhood, and particularly to Sayyid Qutb.

As I posted above, Sayyid Qutb's primary manifesto, Milestones, is published by an arm of the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT). They apparently believe that this book meets the objective of "To educate and instruct the Muslims in North America in the dynamic role of Islam in its encounter with the modern world; and To prepare them to play their destined role as a great cultural and spiritual force in the Western hemisphere".

Here's some more reading about Qutb: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/a ... 68/?no-ist I have no problem describing him as an extremist (plus a racist and anti-semite).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Here's my take on that, having worked with Saudi officials for a year, including members of the royal family. I would say that Saudi does have a fairly equal part in the machine, but in a different way– most of the Saudi support is from funding from several elite neo-Salafi families (ex, Bin Laden family). There is no massive national support for the violent actions of those families, despite their social position in the nation. On the whole, during King Adbullah's death, Saudi was trying (ever so slowly) to move toward stepping away from that extremism in order to be a major world player on the economic forefront in areas other than oil. It will need to in order to be competitive in world markets.

However, it is possible that will change based on King Abdullah's death. Upon his passing, many people became concerned as his successor, King Salman, was known to hold more stringent views on religious enforcement. Salman is an Al Saud and is known not to negotiate. It remains to be seen what his position will be.

There's no question that there are those in Saudi Arabia who are pragmatic enough to know that they need some links with the West.

For example, Saudi Arabia contracts with North American hospitals and universities (such as the University of Toronto) to provide training for medical residents and fellowships.

[OkToBeTakei]

Here's my take on that, having worked with Saudi officials for a year, including members of the royal family. I would say that Saudi does have a fairly equal part in the machine, but in a different way– most of the Saudi support is from funding from several elite neo-Salafi families (ex, Bin Laden family). There is no massive national support for the violent actions of those families, despite their social position in the nation. On the whole, during King Adbullah's death, Saudi was trying (ever so slowly) to move toward stepping away from that extremism in order to be a major world player on the economic forefront in areas other than oil. It will need to in order to be competitive in world markets.

However, it is possible that will change based on King Abdullah's death. Upon his passing, many people became concerned as his successor, King Salman, was known to hold more stringent views on religious enforcement. Salman is an Al Saud and is known not to negotiate. It remains to be seen what his position will be.

Very much so.

[FundieFarmer]

There's no question that there are those in Saudi Arabia who are pragmatic enough to know that they need some links with the West.

For example, Saudi Arabia contracts with North American hospitals and universities (such as the University of Toronto) to provide training for medical residents and fellowships.

If you're interested in a behind-the-scenes view on healthcare in SA, the book Paramedic to the Prince is very good. Highly recommend. It was written by an American man who was King Abdullah's personal paramedic while he was Crown Prince. It tells of empty and yet up-to-date royal hospitals across the nation. Very interesting.

[PregnantPornStar]

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4342/germany-salafism

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3625/ ... -islamists

We were in Germany when the shooting happened at FRA. It was a scary and sad thing. I could be wrong, but I believe Europeans are quicker to talk about links between terrorist acts and Salafism/Wahhabism.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If you're interested in a behind-the-scenes view on healthcare in SA, the book Paramedic to the Prince is very good. Highly recommend. It was written by an American man who was King Abdullah's personal paramedic while he was Crown Prince. It tells of empty and yet up-to-date royal hospitals across the nation. Very interesting.

Thanks for the book recommendation. Most of what I know comes from my husband working with Saudi medical residents when he was doing his residency, and from our former nanny's daughter working at King Fahd hospital. The medical residents were decent - after all, even though their salaries were being paid by Saudi Arabia, they were still treating patients in Toronto and would have been sent packing if they couldn't do their jobs.

[FundieFarmer]

I would love to hear those stories. My work was specifically in taking a pharmaceutical company to the middle east, so much of my experience was along those lines. I read the book to get an understanding of what I was going into. It was an incredible experience and I wouldn't change it for anything, and it gave me a deeper understanding of the culture.

I do know, though, that the people I worked with had to be especially conscious of their reputation, so I know what they said may not have been the whole story. Outside sources have been invaluable to get a true picture.