Rant on Islam comments

[nausicaa]

Islamaphobic propaganda, FTW.*

:doh:

*This is very definitely a sarcastic use of that phrase, in case anyone was uncertain.

EDIT: When I think about what the background music would be for a video where a bunch of European immigrants reach Ellis Island and are crying/screaming with joy or what the background music would be for a video where people are shown either trying or succeeding to cross the Berlin Wall, despite the fact that it was not allowed, I realized just how blatantly propagandist that video was. Islamaphobic with a side of good ol' racism, the likes of which I haven't seen since the Black Lives Matter media coverage died down.

Oh God, the music!

Latraviata, you seem to be an intelligent and educated person. How on earth can you not see such a ridiculously edited, sensationalist, scare mongering video like that for what it is? I actually laughed during most of it; it was that ridiculous.

[Firiel]

Oh God, the music!

Latraviata, you seem to be an intelligent and educated person. How on earth can you not see such a ridiculously edited, sensationalist, scare mongering video like that for what it is? I actually laughed during most of it; it was that ridiculous.

I know, right?! That's what got to me-- it wasn't even good propaganda! Half the video clips were migrants with huge fucking grins on their faces. In at least one clip, they were clearly lawfully going through a gate at the directions of a security guard. Anyone with even half an ounce of critical thinking ability should be able to see that video for the over-the-top propaganda it was.

I was judging it by my movie preview standards. When I see a preview for a comedy, and a punch line in the preview is not even a little bit funny, I write off the movie. The best bits make it into the preview, and if they can't fill 30 seconds with quality, I have no interest in the movie. This video was very clearly trying to paint a most negative picture of the migrants. If they can't even find 6 minutes worth of clips of migrants acting aggressive, frustrated, riotous, etc. on a weeks-long journey full of a lot of suffering/hunger/whatever, then I'm pretty impressed with the migrants!

[Clementine]

I know, right?! That's what got to me-- it wasn't even good propaganda! Half the video clips were migrants with huge fucking grins on their faces. In at least one clip, they were clearly lawfully going through a gate at the directions of a security guard. Anyone with even half an ounce of critical thinking ability should be able to see that video for the over-the-top propaganda it was.

I was judging it by my movie preview standards. When I see a preview for a comedy, and a punch line in the preview is not even a little bit funny, I write off the movie. The best bits make it into the preview, and if they can't fill 30 seconds with quality, I have no interest in the movie. This video was very clearly trying to paint a most negative picture of the migrants. If they can't even find 6 minutes worth of clips of migrants acting aggressive, frustrated, riotous, etc. on a weeks-long journey full of a lot of suffering/hunger/whatever, then I'm pretty impressed with the migrants!

That is from a news clip from 2014, reporting about illegal immigrants storming the border fence in Melilla, the Spanish enclave in North Africa and making their way to the migrant center.

[PregnantPornStar]

Islamaphobic propaganda, FTW.*

:doh:

*This is very definitely a sarcastic use of that phrase, in case anyone was uncertain.

EDIT: When I think about what the background music would be for a video where a bunch of European immigrants reach Ellis Island and are crying/screaming with joy or what the background music would be for a video where people are shown either trying or succeeding to cross the Berlin Wall, despite the fact that it was not allowed, I realized just how blatantly propagandist that video was. Islamaphobic with a side of good ol' racism, the likes of which I haven't seen since the Black Lives Matter media coverage died down.

Except immagrants were entering Ellis Island legally and the Berlin Wall was to keep people IN not out. Defectors were leaving....

[Sundaymorning]

It would be easy to match her propaganda film with one aimed at illegal imimgrants in the US, African Americans, Jews through out the world, Communists, Catholics, any-group-who-has-been-Othered.... But, frankly, I have a low enough opinion of humanity as it is. More and more, what creeps me out is anyone who opposes a pluralistic society. Monoculture is just not healthy.

What do you mean by "monoculture" and "pluralistic society"?

Because around here, some people consider it a "pluralistic society" if certain groups can claim that due to their religious views, they don't have to accept gender equality, gays, other Religions and so on as their religious rules are more important than the law and human rights of other people in general.

It is a fact that, at least where I live, way too many Muslim immigrants don't accept things like gender equality. I'm not saying all of them, there are liberal Muslims too, and people who have left the Religion altogether (which many Muslims consider to be a crime worthy of the death penalty). And yes, there are extremists in all religions, but at least in most places in Western Europe, the religion which has the biggest amount of believers who refuse to accept that basic human rights are more important than their religious dogmas, and who will resort to violence against those who they think trangress their religious rules, is still Islam.

I sincerely wish it weren't so, and that all religions and all people would let everyone (including the members of their own family) live in peace and the way they want (even if they don't agree with it). But unfortunately, this isn't the case.

I don't know all that much about theology, but I know a bit about the situation of gay Muslims, and let me tell you: it's not pretty, and there is a huge difference in the way that let's say conservative Christian parents react to the news of their children being gay, and the way that many conservative Muslim parents do.

Do conservative Christian parents sometimes completely use their shit and scream and shout nasty stuff and throw things around? You bet.

Do they sometimes even kick their kids out? Unfortunately yes.

And we don't have to discuss the fact that this is horrible for their children and sometimes worth years of therapy.

However; the only time I've seen someone actually fear for their life because of the fact that they were gay, was a girl whose brother was a neo-Nazi. And to the surprise of everyone, he was ok with it.

The situation of gay Muslims is far worse, even if they are living in Europe. Many of them don't have to fear that their family will kick them out. They have to fear that they will kill them.

(for those who speak German (or use google translate):

faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/menschen/schwuler-sohn-zieht-gegen-seine-eltern-vor-gericht-13477491.html

cileli.de/2013/03/mein-name-ist-bahar-und-ich-bin-eine-lesbische-muslimin/)

Every year, many people get heavily abused and even killed in Europe because their family isn't ok with their boyfriend, lifestyle and so on, and sees it as a transgression against their religion. And while yes, occasionally it happens that the family members are extremists of another religion, the majority of the cases are comitted by Muslim families.

So yes, I'm very wary of the Islam in the form that is currently practised by many if not the majority of its followers.

I sincerely hope that one day, the moderate and liberal forces will prevail.

[latraviata]

Oh God, the music!

Latraviata, you seem to be an intelligent and educated person. How on earth can you not see such a ridiculously edited, sensationalist, scare mongering video like that for what it is? I actually laughed during most of it; it was that ridiculous.

Last night there were massive fights in the various refugee centers, they even used helicopters to break up the fights. The reason, they refused the help of the female volunteers.they objected to share the accommodation with Christians, they refused to clean their own room because it is women's work, they don't like the food, they complain about the amount of money just a few examples.

Who exactly is the bigot and racist? Jews flee the country because they are not safe here anymore. Gays are bullied out of their neighborhoods by their Muslim neighbors, gang rapes on a daily basis, in 2013, 500 honour killings. Freedom of expression is a lost cause, any criticism of Islam is rewarded with a death threat. Politicians, comedians, journalists, scientists, everybody keep their mouth shut for fear of death threats, many of them live under permanent security, you think I have no right to complain or at least to worry about the current situation?

And I'm the racist ??

[urban teacher]

I think what has been bugging me about all these conversations on Islam is the people like latiatriava who are so clearly anti-Islam are acting like Islam isn't a brown religion with brown people. I'm not sure I can separate comments that might be logical and something to think about because all I see when reading is "Damn brown people." I think to not talk about the inherent racism of any comments about the Muslim world or Muslims needs to be looked at.

[Terrie]

Pluralistic society = One where everyone accepts people can have different identities from their neighbors. One thing extremists have is common is the idea that how they live is the only acceptable way to live. It's hard to be an extremist when you're okay with people disagreeing with you. Despite what many conservatives think, this is not an opressive regime that means you're not allowed to think things like "homosexuality is a sin." Rather, it means you recognize that whatever you might think, it's not your life to live.

Monoculture = You must assimilate. People often cite the strength of a common history and identity, and how failure to assimilate undermines that. But that kind of thinking is a short step to extremism, such as fascism or other dysfunctional societies.

[PregnantPornStar]

I think what has been bugging me about all these conversations on Islam is the people like latiatriava who are so clearly anti-Islam are acting like Islam isn't a brown religion with brown people. I'm not sure I can separate comments that might be logical and something to think about because all I see when reading is "Damn brown people." I think to not talk about the inherent racism of any comments about the Muslim world or Muslims needs to be looked at.

I am confused. Are you saying Islam is a "brown people" religion? It is not...

[Terrie]

I am confused. Are you saying Islam is a "brown people" religion? It is not...

I'm not sure you're allowed to claim that with a straight face, when you've already divided the world into Muslim countries and the Western World.

[FundieFarmer]

Okay, LaTraviata, so you've had a very negative experience with a group of individuals who are part of a faith. That's frustrating and disconcerting, and I get that.

But if I were to take your sentiments here, and apply them to all of your countrymen saying, "They are ignorant and closed-minded. They hate all Muslims and are racist." would that be fair to the rest of your countrymen?

Now, I know that is not the case. But someone who is not may think I am correct. Would you want to be painted by the same brush as the very worst person who held a similarity to you?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Not to play the devil's advocate (also because I absolutely don't agree with latraviata on this issue), but the Muslims I know are no darker than a good half of Italians. I can understand that racism in USA is tied to one's appearance, but in Europe it's not the same. Often people start to be wary towards someone as soon as this someone speaks betraying a specific accent, from some Eastern European countries or the Balkans. For example in the 90s in Italy the Others were the Albanians, many of whom are Muslims, but you wouldn't distinguish them without hearing them speaking.

However I strongly believe that Islamic Culture is not to be feared. I don't forget that when the Christian Europe was deep in the Dark Ages Muslims contributed to the World with mathematicians, astronomers, doctors, philosophers and architects, they gave us the numbers we still use and took back to Europe the knowledge of ancient Greek and of the philosophers we had forgotten. So I am deeply saddened and scared by the Islamic fundamentalists as much as by the Christian fundamentalists since all of them are throwing mud on their culture spawning only hate and violence.

However throughout the history of humanity big movements of populations happened many and many times, peacefully or not, what is sure is that after everyone of this changes things never went back as before and people got upset, many things got lost but in general humanity earned a lot in the meeting (or clashing) of different cultures. This changed with colonialism, when between the European countries started the race to gain the ownership of as many lands and its resources as possible. The circumstances of the birth of the "Western Countries" are nothing to be proud of.

[Sundaymorning]

Okay, LaTraviata, so you've had a very negative experience with a group of individuals who are part of a faith. That's frustrating and disconcerting, and I get that.

But if I were to take your sentiments here, and apply them to all of your countrymen saying, "They are ignorant and closed-minded. They hate all Muslims and are racist." would that be fair to the rest of your countrymen?

Now, I know that is not the case. But someone who is not may think I am correct. Would you want to be painted by the same brush as the very worst person who held a similarity to you?

I can't speak for LaTraviata, however, those things she wrote aren't just unfortunate, singular cases.

This study by the Berlin social science research center shows that clearly: wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread

Of course, not all 1.6 billion Muslims are fundamentalists, and of course, there are many of them who don't agree with homophobia, sexism and such. But, just as an example, according to this study, over 65% of the Muslims agree that religious rules are more important than secular laws (source: the study, you can find the pdf on the site of the link I posted). The number of Christians, who also think that: 13%. Almost 60 per cent (of the Muslims) reject homosexuals as friends and 45 per cent think that Jews cannot be trusted. Christians: about 10% to both questions. You can't deny that that is a huge difference.

Main conclusions of the study from the presentation (source: presentation on the site I posted the link to)

• Religious fundamentalist attitudes are in Western Europe much more widespread

among Muslim immigrants than among native Christians

• However, Turkish Alevites as well as a minority of Sunni Muslim immigrants, have a

view on Islam that is similar to native Christian‘s view on religion

• Religious fundamentalism strongly predicts hostile attitudes towards, and threat

perceptions of outgroups

• The socio-structural determinants of fundamentalism are very similar for Christians

and Muslims (education, employment)

• However, they do not explain the much higher levels of fundamentalism among

Muslims

• While young Christians are less fundamentalist and hostile to outgroups than older

generations, this is not the case among Muslims

• The popular explanations for religious fundamentalism among Muslim immigrants

are all contradicted by the data: it is not a consequence of immigration-related

stress, socio-economic marginalization, or legal exclusion

ETA: another link, if you scroll down, especially the first publication (Koopmans, Ruud (2014): Religious Fundamentalism and Out-Group Hostility among Muslims and Christians in Western Europe. WZB Discussion Paper SP VI 2014-101. Berlin: WZB. ) is very interesting: wzb.eu/en/research/migration-and-diversity/migration-integration-transnationalization/projects/six-country-immigrant-int

Oh, and before anyone claims that WZB is some right-wing, islamophobic organisation, it's not: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZB_Berlin_Social_Science_Center

[latraviata]

I can't speak for LaTraviata, however, those things she wrote aren't just unfortunate, singular cases.

This study by the Berlin social science research center shows that clearly: wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread

Of course, not all 1.6 billion Muslims are fundamentalists, and of course, there are many of them who don't agree with homophobia, sexism and such. But, just as an example, according to this study, over 65% of the Muslims agree that religious rules are more important than secular laws (source: the study, you can find the pdf on the site of the link I posted). The number of Christians, who also think that: 13%. Almost 60 per cent (of the Muslims) reject homosexuals as friends and 45 per cent think that Jews cannot be trusted. Christians: about 10% to both questions. You can't deny that that is a huge difference.

Main conclusions of the study from the presentation (source: presentation on the site I posted the link to)

• Religious fundamentalist attitudes are in Western Europe much more widespread

among Muslim immigrants than among native Christians

• However, Turkish Alevites as well as a minority of Sunni Muslim immigrants, have a

view on Islam that is similar to native Christian‘s view on religion

• Religious fundamentalism strongly predicts hostile attitudes towards, and threat

perceptions of outgroups

• The socio-structural determinants of fundamentalism are very similar for Christians

and Muslims (education, employment)

• However, they do not explain the much higher levels of fundamentalism among

Muslims

• While young Christians are less fundamentalist and hostile to outgroups than older

generations, this is not the case among Muslims

• The popular explanations for religious fundamentalism among Muslim immigrants

are all contradicted by the data: it is not a consequence of immigration-related

stress, socio-economic marginalization, or legal exclusion

ETA: another link, if you scroll down, especially the first publication (Koopmans, Ruud (2014): Religious Fundamentalism and Out-Group Hostility among Muslims and Christians in Western Europe. WZB Discussion Paper SP VI 2014-101. Berlin: WZB. ) is very interesting: wzb.eu/en/research/migration-and-diversity/migration-integration-transnationalization/projects/six-country-immigrant-int

Oh, and before anyone claims that WZB is some right-wing, islamophobic organisation, it's not: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZB_Berlin_Social_Science_Center

Of course not, that was pure cynicism of my part. I don't agree with the many of them don't agree etc. There are not that many and they don't stand up out of fear. Meanwhile from right to left, everybody agrees that multiculture society has failed big time. Essential failures as the billion and billions spent on integration projects are thrown in the drawers of the various government and university research institutes. I was peripherally involved in a study into the number and the effects of non-western immigrants in the social security system, the results were so disillusioning, they couldn't be published because we had to maintain the myth, that everything was fine! The muslim community could be offended and we didn't want that. I am convinced, also because I lived in islamic countries, my late husband was a diplomate, that islam is not compatible with western democracy. Denying the problems is ignorant, there are problems, big problems and to allow uncontrollable amounts of refugees/immigrants/fortune seekers is madness.They are not only Syrian refugees just 1/3 is, according to official data I read today. I think as a country we have to welcome refugees, I mean real refugees. But the current situation is absolutely uncontrollable, as I said before and nobody seems to mind, but the uprisings already started and being blind and deaf isn't going to help the situation one bit.

[Cleopatra7]

Of course not, that was pure cynicism of my part. I don't agree with the many of them don't agree etc. There are not that many and they don't stand up out of fear. Meanwhile from right to left, everybody agrees that multiculture society has failed big time. Essential failures as the billion and billions spent on integration projects are thrown in the drawers of the various government and university research institutes. I was peripherally involved in a study into the number and the effects of non-western immigrants in the social security system, the results were so disillusioning, they couldn't be published because we had to maintain the myth, that everything was fine! The muslim community could be offended and we didn't want that. I am convinced, also because I lived in islamic countries, my late husband was a diplomate, that islam is not compatible with western democracy. Denying the problems is ignorant, there are problems, big problems and to allow uncontrollable amounts of refugees/immigrants/fortune seekers is madness.They are not only Syrian refugees just 1/3 is, according to official data I read today. I think as a country we have to welcome refugees, I mean real refugees. But the current situation is absolutely uncontrollable, as I said before and nobody seems to mind, but the uprisings already started and being blind and deaf isn't going to help the situation one bit.

I think that Islam is theoretically compatible with democracy, but the former would have to change a lot for that to happen. About one hundred fifty years ago, people were saying the same thing about democracy and the Catholic church, especially when documents like "Syllabus of Errors," "Quanta cura," and the declaration of papal infallibility during the first Vatican council were issued:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm

This is why anti-Catholicism was so prevalent in the United States in the past, because, like Muslims, Catholic immigrants were perceived to harbor inherently anti-democratic ideals and could never be assimilated into being "real Americans" in a liberal democratic system. This is also why Otto von Bismarck launched his "Kulturkampf" against the Catholic church after he unified Germany, because he felt that the church was interfering too much in secular politics at a crucial time in the country's modernization process.

Now you might be saying, "This may be true, but Catholics for the most part weren't involved in terrorism like some Islamist groups are." Well, yes, but that's because the Catholic church acted as an unelected part of the government in many Catholic countries until recently. Terrorism by definition is non-state violence utilized to achieve a political aim. If you're part of the government, as the Catholic church often was, you can be as violent as you want, but it's not terrorism.

Unlike much of the Catholic world, many Islamic countries and Western Muslim communities are considerably less secular than they were fifty of sixty years ago. Cold War interference helped to strangle nascent secular democracies in many Islamic countries, and I wish our elected officials would be honest about that, though I'm not holding my breath. Countries like France, Italy, and Spain also have long histories of anti-clericalism, which is also not something one usually finds in Islamic countries (although I suppose "anti-clericalism" doesn't quite fit the Islamic context). As long as the Saudis have oil money and adhere to Wahabbism, we can expect them to export their ideas to Muslim communities around the world, and I don't see any way the West can counter this.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I think that Islam is theoretically compatible with democracy, but the former would have to change a lot for that to happen. About one hundred fifty years ago, people were saying the same thing about democracy and the Catholic church, especially when documents like "Syllabus of Errors," "Quanta cura," and the declaration of papal infallibility during the first Vatican council were issued:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm

This is why anti-Catholicism was so prevalent in the United States in the past, because, like Muslims, Catholic immigrants were perceived to harbor inherently anti-democratic ideals and could never be assimilated into being "real Americans" in a liberal democratic system. This is also why Otto von Bismarck launched his "Kulturkampf" against the Catholic church after he unified Germany, because he felt that the church was interfering too much in secular politics at a crucial time in the country's modernization process.

Now you might be saying, "This may be true, but Catholics for the most part weren't involved in terrorism like some Islamist groups are." Well, yes, but that's because the Catholic church acted as an unelected part of the government in many Catholic countries until recently. Terrorism by definition is non-state violence utilized to achieve a political aim. If you're part of the government, as the Catholic church often was, you can be as violent as you want, but it's not terrorism.

Unlike much of the Catholic world, many Islamic countries and Western Muslim communities are considerably less secular than they were fifty of sixty years ago. Cold War interference helped to strangle nascent secular democracies in many Islamic countries, and I wish our elected officials would be honest about that, though I'm not holding my breath. Countries like France, Italy, and Spain also have long histories of anti-clericalism, which is also not something one usually finds in Islamic countries (although I suppose "anti-clericalism" doesn't quite fit the Islamic context). As long as the Saudis have oil money and adhere to Wahabbism, we can expect them to export their ideas to Muslim communities around the world, and I don't see any way the West can counter this.

Another good reason to work on finding alternative energy sources.

It's true that anticlericalism have strong and old roots here, but that's also because a not well appreciated theocracy lasted too many centuries. The" strong powers" in politics behave exactly in the same way whatever their nature is, they seek at every chance to strengthen their power. When the State of the Church existed politics were exactly as they were everywhere with lobbying, corruption and so on , through the centuries it was a state that was no different from the states of the time, ie no worse of Louis XVI France and no better than Henry VIII England and so on. It ended when the political landscape of Europe was in for some major changes and that sort of state was perceived as not at pace with the changing times. Unfortunately, during the napoleonic wars that spread the concept of secularism (born during the French revolution) throughout Europe, also a secularistic Republic, old of many centuries like the Republic of Venice found its end because the Hapsburgs' Austria wanted a big port on the sea and Napoleon made the deal giving them a port in exchange for alliances and benefits for himself. All this to say that at the same time we seemed to make a pace forward (secularism in Europe) we made a lot of paces backwards (the bloody destruction of one of the few democracies of the time). History takes a lot of turns, stops and going backs to proceed. Changes that are so big as the one you're advocating take time and are not straightforward, I think one day looking back we will understand in which turn of History we are now, but at the moment I feel we are unable to gain a POV that enables us to fully understand the time we are living.

[OkToBeTakei]

Well whilst looking for this dreadful helicoptor ridden riot of refugee centres I did find this

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... by-locals/

A football fight and locals protesting about refugee centres.

There is chaos in Croatia due to numbers.

Apart from that as per usual Latraviata is pulling crap out of her arse to suit her own agenda. Same shit different day.

[PregnantPornStar]

I'm not sure you're allowed to claim that with a straight face, when you've already divided the world into Muslim countries and the Western World.

I don't know about you, but when I think of the Western World I am thinking about the values. Things like democracy, human rights, free thought and free enterprise to name a few. I am not thinking about skin color. At all. That is absurd. While Japan is part of the "east" I would still say it is part of the western world in the modern sense. Iran and Saudi Arabia? No.

Saying you are a "citizen of the world" is a pretty "Western" thing to say. Globalization makes it pretty easy to say and do that, given that said part of the world is accepting of the same idea. Globalization is generally seen as a threat in the Islamic world.

[latraviata]

I don't know about you, but when I think of the Western World I am thinking about the values. Things like democracy, human rights, free thought and free enterprise to name a few. I am not thinking about skin color. At all. That is absurd. While Japan is part of the "east" I would still say it is part of the western world in the modern sense. Iran and Saudi Arabia? No.

Saying you are a "citizen of the world" is a pretty "Western" thing to say. Globalization makes it pretty easy to say and do that, given that said part of the world is accepting of the same idea. Globalization is generally seen as a threat in the Islamic world.

Right, I am sewing our KKK robes as we speak, you want me to garnish yours with a swastika piping? I did mine and the result is absolutely stunning, seditious and yet elegant!

[FundieFarmer]

This conversation is officially unreal after that comment.

[sawasdee]

Right, I am sewing our KKK robes as we speak, you want me to garnish yours with a swastika piping? I did mine and the result is absolutely stunning, seditious and yet elegant!

Sorry, I do NOT like this comment - I hit the wrong button when I was trying to quote.

This is probably the single most offensive, patronising and condescending comment I have read on FJ. Let me out of this thread!

[latraviata]

Sorry, I do NOT like this comment - I hit the wrong button when I was trying to quote.

This is probably the single most offensive, patronising and condescending comment I have read on FJ. Let me out of this thread!

That is fine by me. When you scroll up a bit or go to previous page, you will notice that some people call me a bigot and a racist. You think that is okay and contributes to a civilised conversation? It is the easiest way to cut short a discussion by lack of arguments. Again, I couldn't care less what people, or you in particular think of me and if you want out by all means you won't be missed at least not by me.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I am sad. I was really trying to have a conversation. Usually FJ is a place where many clever people debate interesting topics. I am really saddened seeing this thread dieing like this :cry:

ETA Can't we just disagree in a civil way? :cry:

[FundieFarmer]

That is fine by me. When you scroll up a bit or go to previous page, you will notice that some people call me a bigot and a racist. You think that is okay and contributes to a civilised conversation? It is the easiest way to cut short a discussion by lack of arguments. Again, I couldn't care less what people, or you in particular think of me and if you want out by all means you won't be missed at least not by me.

They're not calling names, they're pointing out facts that are substantiated by what you just said a comment before! It's hardly like you've done nothing to earn being called that.

But here. Your responses and words are bigoted and racist. Perhaps you are not at heart, but your words suggest otherwise.

I also find your previous comment inappropriate and frankly abhorrent. I can possibly give you a pass on the KKK comment under the justification that you don't know how culturally inappropriate that is to say here, but I cannot believe that as a European, you'd be so flippant about the Nazi party.

If other posters didn't mention this is normal for you, I'd think you were our next DeFrauder.

[PregnantPornStar]

But it is correct. You also tried to shut me down by essentially calling me racist. The absolute absurdity of it is I have explained why that is absolutely incorrect and the retort is to keep arguing racism.