Rant on Islam comments

[latraviata]

I'm genuinely confused here, this is not snark, I'm trying to understand.

If the past is irrelevant to current situations, why do people keep bringing up that Islam is inherently bad because Mohammad married a child bride?

I don't understand why history can be used to bolster positions in one situation, but not the other.

Can someone explain to me why there is a difference?

Again, I'm NOT being snarky. I really am trying to understand.

On a completely different note, using antiquated language that is considered offense today, does not exactly scream enlightened.

Edit: can and cannot are not the same thing

Because it is relevant to his followers.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I went back and read through the entire thread. You made very good points about a multitude of sects on page 1 and got reasonable responses.

But more to the point, I read the rest of the thread and no one called you racist.

So, I'm guessing that this comes from other threads. Can you point me to a thread where you (personally) were called racist (or other similar terms) for a comment about the Muslim faith?

Quoting myself because I did not see a response from Clementine.

Can anyone point to posts where someone made nuanced comments (not generalizations) about Muslims and were called bigots or racists? Or anything that supports the argument that FJ snarks on Christian fundamentalists but has made Islam a sacred cow?

[OkToBeTakei]

Well, I was looking up the "Jewish Journal" but have gotten side-tracked.

Why would someone who is rigidly anti-theist use a faith-based source to prove a point? :think:

Seriously.

:lol: Simple, just google some sensational search like 'Muslims are taking over Europe!' I tell you, you can find hundreds of blogs, opinions. This of course should not be taken as 'fact.' Blows my mind the crap that has been posted the last few weeks.

It just makes having an intelligent discussion impossible. There ARE issues and most posters are interested in exploring this. Unfortunately the constant noise of bigoted propaganda effectively derails this :(

[latraviata]

Again a a totally unreliable source in contrast to the "Dutch News" nobody ever heard of, but a very interesting article, thanks to the supportive FJer who wishes to remain anonymous.

http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/6239/full?page=1

[Curious]

Who says I am an antitheist?

You did.

As an atheist I resent all religions in particular the islam

Just one example of the definition:

Antitheism has been adopted as a label by those who regard theism as dangerous or destructive. Christopher Hitchens offers an example of this approach in Letters to a Young Contrarian (2001), in which he writes: "I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."

[Curious]

Because it is relevant to his followers.

That doesn't really answer my question. Why is it relevant in one case, but not the other?

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Who says I am an antitheist?

And when it is clearly right it can't be good. How familiar are you with the other links? Are you so well informed? You don't give me that impression.

From your post on page six of this thread:

As an atheist I resent all religions in particular the islam, again the multicultural society in Europe has failed, as I said left and right agree upon that. I am very, very worried about Europe's future.

Okay, fine. Why, as an atheist, are you quoting a religious news source to bolster your position?

As to the rest of it:

1) I don't spend a whole lot of time on rabidly right or anti-immigration websites, you're right. I have no need to. They're ugly, inaccurate, and distasteful. I feel no need to put that sort of poison into my brain.

2) Attacking my knowledge base is a bit like Godwin's Law. It's a symptom of someone who can't deal with facts and truth.

[Whoosh]

:lol: Simple, just google some sensational search like 'Muslims are taking over Europe!' I tell you, you can find hundreds of blogs, opinions. This of course should not be taken as 'fact.' Blows my mind the crap that has been posted the last few weeks.

It just makes having an intelligent discussion impossible. There ARE issues and most posters are interested in exploring this. Unfortunately the constant noise of bigoted propaganda effectively derails this :(

You didn't specifically limit your statement to only opinions, but I think it is important to state explicitly that no't only are things like blogs opinions being stated as fact, but facts seem to be being fabricated in some cases.

I know there was a retraction of this one, but I feel like a real asshat for assuming that if a FJ member with over 4k posts says there were 500 honor killings, that means there is some remotely plausible way of looking at the data and concluding "there were somewhere near 500 honor killings". Live and learn. :shrug:

[Terrie]

Somebody save me the phone wifi time and confirm as per usual the above is a cherry picked bunch of propaganda and right wing blogs? :)

The Orient :lol:

'The Islam' is that like 'the gay' ....... :lol:

She claims if she lived in the US, she would not vote right-wing, yet uses Red State as a source. I would laugh of she weren't spouting such toxic ideas. The more she vents her xenophobia and ethnocentrism, the less difference I see between her and the attitudes she complains about.

I live in an area with a large Muslim population. I'm not going to say there are no issues, but it's hardly the never-ending disaster latraviata is describing. So am I to come to the conclusion that there is something inherently different about the Muslims in my neighborhood and those in the Netherlands, or that the real failure is not multiculturalism, but the country that can't handle it?

[SpoonfulOSugar]

:lol: Simple, just google some sensational search like 'Muslims are taking over Europe!' I tell you, you can find hundreds of blogs, opinions. This of course should not be taken as 'fact.' Blows my mind the crap that has been posted the last few weeks.

It just makes having an intelligent discussion impossible. There ARE issues and most posters are interested in exploring this. Unfortunately the constant noise of bigoted propaganda effectively derails this :(

This is what is grinding on me so intensely.

I'm completely willing to have a discussion about the issues. I WANT to better understand diverse points of view and cultural differences that are creating tension for others, but I'm not interested in generalizations and xenophobic claims that cannot be supported by unbiased sources.

[OkToBeTakei]

Again a a totally unreliable source in contrast to the "Dutch News" nobody ever heard of, but a very interesting article, thanks to the supportive FJer who wishes to remain anonymous.

standpointmag.co.uk/node/6239/full?page=1

Standpoint magazine has based its readership on anti-multicultural ideas and has courted controversy for 'doing the BNP's work for them.' The BNP being that rather nasty little far right political party.

This continual barrage of posts to 'prove' you are 'RIGHT' and everybody who disagrees are wrong or uninformed is absolutely ludicrous not to mention appearing so childish. People want to discuss these issues, very few people are naive to the problems. Your constant posting of ever increasingly ludicrous articles/opinion pieces to support your own beliefs and stamp on other's is asinine.

Also for the love of all things brain matter stop confusing opinion with fact and stop posting sensationalist propaganda and false facts.

[OkToBeTakei]

She claims if she lived in the US, she would not vote right-wing, yet uses Red State as a source. I would laugh of she weren't spouting such toxic ideas. The more she vents her xenophobia and ethnocentrism, the less difference I see between her and the attitudes she complains about.

I live in an area with a large Muslim population. I'm not going to say there are no issues, but it's hardly the never-ending disaster latraviata is describing. So am I to come to the conclusion that there is something inherently different about the Muslims in my neighborhood and those in the Netherlands, or that the real failure is not multiculturalism, but the country that can't handle it?

Yes that was something I wished to explore. Latraviata claimed that all the Muslims that arrived in The Netherlands during the 60's 70's were from rural areas, uneducated and have done nothing to integrate into society, I would need to find the post but I think it was along the lines of and of course subsequent generations are no different.

This is so far from the situation in my country it makes you wonder. I live in a small European country with quite a large Muslim population who also arrived during this time period. It is not the way she describes AT ALL.

Like you I would not say there are absolutely no issues, I would at least like to be able to explore the subject without the histrionics :(

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Here is a Washington Post article about Muslim residents of Hungary and a snapshot of their involvement with the refugees:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/hungarys-tiny-muslim-community-mobilizes-to-help-refugees/2015/09/21/35a8b72a-5a63-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html

Hungary is majority Roman Catholic; less than one percent Muslim.

Edited to remove random bracket.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

This is what is grinding on me so intensely.

I'm completely willing to have a discussion about the issues. I WANT to better understand diverse points of view and cultural differences that are creating tension for others, but I'm not interested in generalizations and xenophobic claims that cannot be supported by unbiased sources.

This is what I want too.

My pledge: I'll take part in this conversation posting politely to the limits of my knowledge and my manners and, since I am honestly curious and interested in this topic and feel the need for a good debate about it, I will try to constructively add to the thread taking the time and effort to read and understand other people arguments and coming back with appropriate contributions.

Starting from tomorrow since I can't keep my eyes open anymore. :wink-kitty:

[SpoonfulOSugar]

This is what I want too.

My pledge: I'll take part in this conversation posting politely to the limits of my knowledge and my manners and, since I am honestly curious and interested in this topic and feel the need for a good debate about it, I will try to constructively add to the thread taking the time and effort to read and understand other people arguments and coming back with appropriate contributions.

Starting from tomorrow since I can't keep my eyes open anymore. :wink-kitty:

BUT but but - the ECLIPSE!!!

I'm getting off to go sit and stare at the moon. (Isn't that related to lunacy?)

Your pledge is to be admired. I will join in that commitment.

Once I'm done moon gazing.

[PregnantPornStar]

That doesn't really answer my question. Why is it relevant in one case, but not the other?

Because Mohammed is relevant to Islam. We would discuss Jesus if we were talking about Christianity.

Anyway....

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/ ... -islam-co/

This is a small thing and I am not using it as proof of anything, but more as a thinking point. Why on earth is the left so terribly afraid to criticize Islam? I consider myself a fairly liberal person, but there is no way I can simply sit back and shrug it off.

Islam is a threat. It is. It is real and pretending like it is no big deal, or that everyone should all get along and it will work out is silly. There are countless examples where this has not worked out so well with Muslims and ignoring that is not helpful. (I don't need a list of Christian issues or Muslims who don't do bad things. Got it. I am aware of all of this. That doesn't address the issue of the negative things that have happened.)

Essentially, the idea of Islam is to have a global Islamic government. Things like the Muslim Brotherhood, who by the way aren't short of members, are helping push this forward.

I stated I am an atheist. I am also an anti-theist in the sense that I believe religion causes more harm than good. I think indoctrinating and brainwashing children is abusive. That being said, if someone wants to love Jesus and marry herself to him or whatever nutty thing, so be it. As long as it was in no way forced, that the individual had all the facts and came to these terms on their own and they aren't imposing their beliefs on anyone else or expecting anyone to adhere to what they believe.

I truly do not understand why everyone is so afraid to have this discussion. Language classes to try to mitigate the issue? That is a small issue in comparison to the big picture. We are talking about a completely different set of values and values that the western world should not need to incorporate...and really cannot be incorporated into our way of life.

So what is the answer? I certainly don't think minimizing it is helpful.

[PregnantPornStar]

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/lift ... lamophobia

I know, I know. Another "new Atheist" link. And another Sam Harris talking point. Terrible. However, I think it touches on some of the very real concerns. The honor killing!!! I mean, where is the outrage over that??!!!!!

[latraviata]

You did.

Just one example of the definition:

Okay, you decided that I am an antitheist, tell me, is that better or worse than a racist?

[OkToBeTakei]

The 'western world' and it's values? What exactly are those?

[VelociRapture]

Because Mohammed is relevant to Islam. We would discuss Jesus if we were talking about Christianity.

Anyway....

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/ ... -islam-co/

This is a small thing and I am not using it as proof of anything, but more as a thinking point. Why on earth is the left so terribly afraid to criticize Islam? I consider myself a fairly liberal person, but there is no way I can simply sit back and shrug it off.

Islam is a threat. It is. It is real and pretending like it is no big deal, or that everyone should all get along and it will work out is silly. There are countless examples where this has not worked out so well with Muslims and ignoring that is not helpful. (I don't need a list of Christian issues or Muslims who don't do bad things. Got it. I am aware of all of this. That doesn't address the issue of the negative things that have happened.)

Essentially, the idea of Islam is to have a global Islamic government. Things like the Muslim Brotherhood, who by the way aren't short of members, are helping push this forward.

I stated I am an atheist. I am also an anti-theist in the sense that I believe religion causes more harm than good. I think indoctrinating and brainwashing children is abusive. That being said, if someone wants to love Jesus and marry herself to him or whatever nutty thing, so be it. As long as it was in no way forced, that the individual had all the facts and came to these terms on their own and they aren't imposing their beliefs on anyone else or expecting anyone to adhere to what they believe.

I truly do not understand why everyone is so afraid to have this discussion. Language classes to try to mitigate the issue? That is a small issue in comparison to the big picture. We are talking about a completely different set of values and values that the western world should not need to incorporate...and really cannot be incorporated into our way of life.

So what is the answer? I certainly don't think minimizing it is helpful.

I'm going to try and explain:

There is a difference between sweeping generalizations and making valid criticisms. For instance -

Sweeping generalization: "All Muslims are bad because they follow Muhammad, a tyrant and child rapist, and I'm completely certain that they all want to impose Sharia Law in European nations/the U.S. We should immediately close our borders to them all, regardless of whether or not they are innocent victims because none of them can be trusted."

Valid Criticism: "Not all Muslims are bad people, but there is a dangerous group of people who claim the faith as their own and are committing horrific acts of violence. And there have been some issues with immigration recently that have me a bit concerned."

*Note - these are examples I made up. Not saying anyone has said anything like this here.

If people want to discuss the problems related to radical Muslim extremists that's fine - it's when it veers off into generalized statements that it becomes a major problem. There are many innocent people - who have done nothing wrong - who have been displaced due to IS and the chaos in Syria. They don't deserve to be lumped into one group with the people responsible for torturing and murdering them or their loved ones.

[PregnantPornStar]

I have stated this already. human rights, free thought, democracy, free enterprise...

[Terrie]

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/lifting-the-veil-of-islamophobia

I know, I know. Another "new Atheist" link. And another Sam Harris talking point. Terrible. However, I think it touches on some of the very real concerns. The honor killing!!! I mean, where is the outrage over that??!!!!!

Please explain how honor killing is any worse than any other pre-meditated form of killing.

[latraviata]

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/lifting-the-veil-of-islamophobia

I know, I know. Another "new Atheist" link. And another Sam Harris talking point. Terrible. However, I think it touches on some of the very real concerns. The honor killing!!! I mean, where is the outrage over that??!!!!!

And the gay bashing/killing and the anti semitism and the killing of apostates and the position of the women, to name a few.

As long it isn't the left propaganda, they just don't read it. they are afraid It will disturb their idyllic image of the peace-loving Islam and its followers and their own political corectness, becuase we are sooooo tolerant, caring and wonderful human beings.

I read the left propaganda of the appeasers and apologists and believe me, even the most die hard islam apologists in the Netherlands at least takes the trouble to read the other side, which is not automatically right wing. But here on this forum the right/left division is taken to an absurd level. On another note, not every socialist is an islam apologist. I suppose it makes it easier with a two party system. Although the democratic party is not even remotely the same as Western European socialism, in fact our conservatives are more like the American democrats than the socialists are.

Oh the irony!

[latraviata]

Please explain how honor killing is any worse than any other pre-meditated form of killing.

According to the Koran is legitimate as we can see in the various islamic countries.

[latraviata]

I'm going to try and explain:

There is a difference between sweeping generalizations and making valid criticisms. For instance -

Sweeping generalization: "All Muslims are bad because they follow Muhammad, a tyrant and child rapist, and I'm completely certain that they all want to impose Sharia Law in European nations/the U.S. We should immediately close our borders to them all, regardless of whether or not they are innocent victims because none of them can be trusted."

Valid Criticism: "Not all Muslims are bad people, but there is a dangerous group of people who claim the faith as their own and are committing horrific acts of violence. And there have been some issues with immigration recently that have me a bit concerned."

*Note - these are examples I made up. Not saying anyone has said anything like this here.

If people want to discuss the problems related to radical Muslim extremists that's fine - it's when it veers off into generalized statements that it becomes a major problem. There are many innocent people - who have done nothing wrong - who have been displaced due to IS and the chaos in Syria. They don't deserve to be lumped into one group with the people responsible for torturing and murdering them or their loved ones.

Brigitte Gabriel has an answer to that:

http://therightscoop.com/brigitte-gabri ... yed-badly/