Rant on Islam comments

[PregnantPornStar]

I meant what I said.

What does this have to do with the conversation? I didn't break any laws, e,braved the culture and loved experiencing the cultural differences. I made a point to learn the language, I integrated my kids in the community and made life long friendships. They shared their culture and I shared mine. We cooked together and traded treats and recipes.

I could have completely hid on base and used only American facilities. Still, my situation was vastly different.

[samurai_sarah]

What does this have to do with the conversation? I didn't break any laws, e,braved the culture and loved experiencing the cultural differences. I made a point to learn the language, I integrated my kids in the community and made life long friendships. They shared their culture and I shared mine. We cooked together and traded treats and recipes.

I could have completely hid on base and used only American facilities. Still, my situation was vastly different.

Thank you for answering my question.

[sockinshoe]

Just an idea for those claiming that all migrants do is hide in enclaves and ruin society for everyone else: perhaps if we acted slightly less dismissively and made serious investments in language education and multicultural neighborhoods, we would see more progress. It's been working fairly well for Canada. Sure, not everyone will want to integrate, but why scrap an entire system due to some outliers. What's the harm in trying?

Most refugees are interested in building new lives for themselves. Many (especially Syrian) refugees have partial or full degrees in a variety of subjects. They want to work and learn the language and send their children to school. My parents (in Germany) recently decided to take some refugee boys under their wing. These teenagers have left their parents, traveled a great distance through dangerous areas, and suffered police brutality. They risked everything to make it to Germany and now that they're there, they want to make the absolute most of their situation.

[JillsFlowerHeadband]

Nothing says "I'm not a bigot" like:

Yep, that's not atheism, that's antitheism (like Dawkins).

[Terrie]

Latraviata, I might take you more seriously, if you didn't bend facts so much.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... n_the_net/ shows 500 reports of potential honor violence (of which 61% were found to founded), and a total of 17 people dead. Now, I don't want to imply it's okay that 17 people were murdered, but there's a pretty big difference between 17 and 500. Further, it notes that 10 of those 17 were men. A very different picture than the one you keep trying to present.

Once again, no one here has said that there are no issues within Islamic populations. What we have objected to is broad generalizations, distorted "facts" and an attempt to make it seem like any act committed by a Muslim is inherently worse than similar acts committed by non-Muslims. :pull-hair:

[PregnantPornStar]

Yep, that's not atheism, that's antitheism (like Dawkins).

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."

~Christopher Hitchens

I generally agree with this. I just happen to find Islam has the potential to be the most harmful. Obviously many of you disagree and there is no reason to continue. Clearly minds will not be changed. I am still horrified by children being brainwashed by crazy Christian ideals and I truly believe the world could be a better place without all religion. :shrug:

[OkToBeTakei]

Latraviata, I might take you more seriously, if you didn't bend facts so much.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... n_the_net/ shows 500 reports of potential honor violence (of which 61% were found to founded), and a total of 17 people dead. Now, I don't want to imply it's okay that 17 people were murdered, but there's a pretty big difference between 17 and 500. Further, it notes that 10 of those 17 were men. A very different picture than the one you keep trying to present.

Once again, no one here has said that there are no issues within Islamic populations. What we have objected to is broad generalizations, distorted "facts" and an attempt to make it seem like any act committed by a Muslim is inherently worse than similar acts committed by non-Muslims. :pull-hair:

What is far more concerning is that I actually think Latraviata 'believes' these 'sources' she insists on inflicting on us. Blogs and right wing propaganda, that Vimeo malarkey was embarrassingly stupid.

What on earth do you Google to get that crap? Nope.... Don't answer that.

[DaffyDill]

I was proud when this happened here in Australia. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/martin-place- ... 27rm1.html

Unfortunately, it shouldn't need to happen, but sadly we have our share of ignorance and bigoted views as well. The #illridewithyou campaign was heartwarming to see unfold in real time.

[ShepherdontheRock]

latraviata, how is this any different to the things donald trump said about mexican immigrants?

or do you hate mexicans too?

[latraviata]

The honor killing stats were wrong, I am sorry about that.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statis ... r_Violence

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/234071/ ... seph-puder

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic ... geyccuqpBc

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_o ... etherlands)

[latraviata]

latraviata, how is this any different to the things donald trump said about mexican immigrants?

or do you hate mexicans too?

Are you serious?

I live in Europe, we don't have Mexicans crossing our borders.

Traditionally the Netherlands are over the centuries very welcoming to refugees from all over the world. Jews, French protestants, Chinese, 20th century, Hungarians, Vietnamese,South American, just to name a few. No problem whatsoever.

The Netherlands are a pluralistic society, people from all over the world are living here and found a safe haven without any problems.

We also have people from our former colonies living here, Surinam, the Antilles, former Dutch Indies (present Indonesia)

You can't compare the USA with Europe or the Netherlands. Just to anticipate more stupid questions, I can assure, if I was American I most certainly wouldn't be a republican and no my vote doesn't go to a very right wing party,

Try to educate yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands

[ShepherdontheRock]

Are you serious?

I live in Europe, we don't have Mexicans crossing our borders.

Traditionally the Netherlands are over the centuries very welcoming to refugees from all over the world. Jews, French protestants, Chinese, 20th century, Hungarians, Vietnamese,South American, just to name a few. No problem whatsoever.

The Netherlands are a pluralistic society, people from all over the world are living here and found a safe haven without any problems.

We also have people from our former colonies living here, Surinam, the Antilles, former Dutch Indies (present Indonesia)

You can't compare the USA with Europe or the Netherlands. Just to anticipate more stupid questions, I can assure, if I was American I most certainly wouldn't be a republican and no my vote doesn't go to a very right wing party,

Try to educate yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands

I know you don't fucking live in America.

But, thanks for totally missing the point I was trying to make. :)

[OkToBeTakei]

Are you serious?

I live in Europe, we don't have Mexicans crossing our borders.

Traditionally the Netherlands are over the centuries very welcoming to refugees from all over the world. Jews, French protestants, Chinese, 20th century, Hungarians, Vietnamese,South American, just to name a few. No problem whatsoever.

The Netherlands are a pluralistic society, people from all over the world are living here and found a safe haven without any problems.

We also have people from our former colonies living here, Surinam, the Antilles, former Dutch Indies (present Indonesia)

You can't compare the USA with Europe or the Netherlands. Just to anticipate more stupid questions, I can assure, if I was American I most certainly wouldn't be a republican and no my vote doesn't go to a very right wing party,

Try to educate yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

The honor killing stats were wrong, I am sorry about that.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statis ... r_Violence

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/234071/ ... seph-puder

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic ... geyccuqpBc

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_o ... etherlands)

Two wiki's (incidentally even my 12 year old is aware how wiki works-hence it being banned for use for school research purposes.)

A Right wing propoganda site.

The Jewish opinion piece is not unusual. Around this time Netanyahu was calling all European Jews to go to Israel. A move roundly criticised by both European Jews and Various governments.

So yes, another round of intelligence insulting. Make it stop :roll:

[Terrie]

Two wiki's (incidentally even my 12 year old is aware how wiki works-hence it being banned for use for school research purposes.)

A Right wing propoganda site.

The Jewish opinion piece is not unusual. Around this time Netanyahu was calling all European Jews to go to Israel. A move roundly criticised by both European Jews and Various governments.

So yes, another round of intelligence insulting. Make it stop :roll:

Not just a wiki, but a wiki that is the anti-islam equivalent of Conservapedia.

[MatthewDuggar]

I find "I don't live in the US, so why should I care" concept rather old, tiring and ignorant. That would be fine if we're talking about some sort of local ordinance regarding the operating hours of the public library, but this discussion is about a global issue. I often hear this here in the US, but in the reverse, i.e. "I don't live in Syria, so why does it matter".... It tends to reek of bigotry.

[Firiel]

I'm just gonna leave this here...

viewtopic.php?f=81&t=25682&p=958882&hilit=latraviata#p958511

Please don't project the trauma of racist USA past on Europe.

latraviata can't be racist, y'all! She's European!

[Terrie]

I find it telling that both of our anti-Islamic members have come out as anti-theists who think society would be better off with no religion. "Muslims want everyone to be like them, and that's bad. The world would be better if everyone was like me."

I distrust anyone who advocates for a universal belief system that goes any further than "be kind to others."

[FundieFarmer]

I find "I don't live in the US, so why should I care" concept rather old, tiring and ignorant. That would be fine if we're talking about some sort of local ordinance regarding the operating hours of the public library, but this discussion is about a global issue. I often hear this here in the US, but in the reverse, i.e. "I don't live in Syria, so why does it matter".... It tends to reek of bigotry.

And naive, given how globalized we have become.

[Clementine]

Why is Islam such a holy cow on a board that is dedicated to snarking on Christian fundies and in reality is used for snarking, mocking and stalking Christian fundies for much more trivial things than honour killings and hatred against Jews and gay people?

The members of FJ have no problems when a random teenage girl's blog is ripped to pieces, her looks, clothes, hair and education is snarked on or somebody stalks her and her family both online and irl.

But call out Islam or members of islam for the negative sides and you will have a beehive of offended people who will call you racist, bigot and idiot.

I just don't get it.

LaTraviata and I are both secular Europeans who have participated in merciless snarking on foreigners (Americans) of a religion we don't belong to (fundamentalist Christianity) and nobody has seemed to object. But when we do the same with Islam... oy.

[JillsFlowerHeadband]

I find it telling that both of our anti-Islamic members have come out as anti-theists who think society would be better off with no religion. "Muslims want everyone to be like them, and that's bad. The world would be better if everyone was like me."

I distrust anyone who advocates for a universal belief system that goes any further than "be kind to others."

You know what I find interesting? Both of them seem to revere and agree with Richard Dawkins and the late but not great Christopher Hitchens... so think about this:

Both men layered on an utterly sophisticated veneer ( :roll: ) of "hey, look, I'm such an advanced thinker that I don't need religion or a god" but-

Dawkins is a racist and sexist jerk who advocates for a pretty nasty form of eugenics (in his esteemed and enlightened view women who are carrying fetuses with birth defects should by law be required to abort them, regardless of whether they want to or not- wow, just wow).

Hitchens was racist, sexist and homophobic as hell....

I'd say that these two men are only marginally better than the PP in that they aren't/weren't overtly advocating for people to be executed.

(Apologies for any lack of coherence, I worked 11-7 and am having trouble falling asleep even though I'm tired.)

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Why is Islam such a holy cow on a board that is dedicated to snarking on Christian fundies and in reality is used for snarking, mocking and stalking Christian fundies for much more trivial things than honour killings and hatred against Jews and gay people?

The members of FJ have no problems when a random teenage girl's blog is ripped to pieces, her looks, clothes, hair and education is snarked on or somebody stalks her and her family both online and irl.

But call out Islam or members of islam for the negative sides and you will have a beehive of offended people who will call you racist, bigot and idiot.

I just don't get it.

LaTraviata and I are both secular Europeans who have participated in merciless snarking on foreigners (Americans) of a religion we don't belong to (fundamentalist Christianity) and nobody has seemed to object. But when we do the same with Islam... oy.

You don't see any difference between snarking on an individual Christian fundamentalist and the entire faith of Islam?

Or between snarking on a specific element (patriarchy, for example) and the entire 1.6 billion who follow Mohammad?

If you were to mercilessly attack Sharia law specifically (with verifiable examples), or the requirement that a woman be covered from head to toe, no one would object.

But this broad brush, complete generalization is grotesque.

I'd feel the same way if you did this for all Christians.

Or ANY other group that is far from monolithic.

[Clementine]

You don't see any difference between snarking on an individual Christian fundamentalist and the entire faith of Islam?

Or between snarking on a specific element (patriarchy, for example) and the entire 1.6 billion who follow Mohammad?

If you were to mercilessly attack Sharia law specifically (with verifiable examples), or the requirement that a woman be covered from head to toe, no one would object.

But this broad brush, complete generalization is grotesque.

I'd feel the same way if you did this for all Christians.

Or ANY other group that is far from monolithic.

I snark on islamists and the traditions that I find offensive or problematic and I still get the same respons: I am racist.

And people try to trivialize what is happening because "Christianity is bad too". Or "I googled and found two articles about how racist Swedes are so shut up".

[formergothardite]

I have had horrible, horrible experiences with Christianity and Christians. Everything from newborn babies being hit to train them to Christians saying awful things to my kids, but if I started saying that all Christians were bad because of this I would be called out here. Islam has a hell of a lot of problems and the fundamental Muslims have managed to start countries, but it is foolish to act like Christianity is somehow "more evolved" just because Christian fundamentalist have not managed to start a country founded on their awful beliefs.

[Clementine]

I have had horrible, horrible experiences with Christianity and Christians. Everything from newborn babies being hit to train them to Christians saying awful things to my kids, but if I started saying that all Christians were bad because of this I would be called out here. Islam has a hell of a lot of problems and the fundamental Muslims have managed to start countries, but it is foolish to act like Christianity is somehow "more evolved" just because Christian fundamentalist have not managed to start a country founded on their awful beliefs.

Europe was founded on fundamental Christianity who had awful beliefs and there was no separation between church and state in many countries. We have managed to get rid of the religious influence on politics gradually over the last 200 years.