Rant on Islam comments

[Whoosh]

PregnantPornStar - have you ever spent and evening talking smack and drinking brewskies and shooting pool with a group of young men (who happen to be muslim)? Have you ever spent time helping the recent immigrant (who happens to be muslim) that works at your corner store to improve his English and understanding of American ways and customs? Have you ever gone to a political rally with an guy (who happens to be muslim) that you met while making calls for the DNC? Do you have any friends, family, co-workers, that happen to be muslim?

I am asking in all sincerity. I am trying to follow along with the conversation and my brain just grinds to a halt every time someone makes gross, sweeping generalizations about this huge group of people - particularly when those generalizations do not fit with my life experience.

Also, thank you for reacting with kindness and courtesy to my mini-rant earlier. I do realize that people often post brief answers that are incomplete when they are short on time. Your pleasant reaction was much appreciated.

[OkToBeTakei]

I wasn't trying to make a giant point with the links, but I found both things interesting and a bit relevant.

Islam is different than Christianity. We all obviously know this and again, I can rant for ages about Christians and Christianity. The violence within Islam is unique. I think denying that is either being a tad naïve r possibly too optimistic.

Reform absolutely needs to happen. Again, I am not saying it doesn't need to happen in Christianity, but I think it is important to note that another part of what drives radicals is that Islamic terrorist groups are majorly funded in one way or another, whereas anyone seeking reform is shunned.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/201 ... story.html

The article you posted actually demonstrated that reform is happening. Granted the writer, for clarity and ease simplified by grouping where he sees the changes and why. Interesting opinion. I'm wondering did you actually read it or posted it because of the picture and the first paragraph.

As to your second point about funding, I'm sure you are aware that initially the majority of funding came from the 'West.' I'm also going to assume you know why.

Oil, drugs, trafficking and pillaging are now the main cash cow for ISIS. Mosul being their largest financial gain.There will always be nefarious governments and individuals who will support terrorists for gain. That has been the case for decades if not longer.

Again nobody denies or disagrees that extremists are ....extreme. You continue to make the broad brush stroke of 'Islam' or 'Muslims' as a whole.

[OkToBeTakei]

I've been on my phone for the last few days and I doubt I will ever learn to effectively copy and paste or link and comment at the same time.

Just for interest and before the daily onslaught of right wing propaganda and as there has been confusion in the differences in politics for differing countries, Here be the handy dandy guide to right wing parties of Europe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/1 ... 11022.html

Some highlights or low lights depending on your view.

Netherlands.

Wilders mostly gained notoriety with his fierce and vocal anti-Islam stance. Wilders considers Islam to be a totalitarian ideology. He has been advocating for a ban of the Quran since 2007, and wants immigration from Muslim countries halted and Muslim immigrants to leave the country. He believes Muslim criminals should be deported and construction of new mosques should be banned.

Platform: Wilder's PVV party is anti-European Union, anti-euro, anti-Islam and anti-multiculturalist. The party wants the Netherlands to leave the European Union so The Hague can independently decide on its immigration and fiscal policies. It argues for low taxes and the preservation of the welfare state. The party has a populist economic program, but is socially conservative -- advocating the protection of Dutch tradition.

Sweden

Founded in 1988, the Sweden Democrats were originally a white supremacist group with reported links to Aryan militants. In the years since, the party has attempted to soften its image and present itself as a populist, anti-immigration party that supports traditional Swedish culture.

Platform: As may be expected from a party with roots in racist nationalism, the Sweden Democrats hold views that seek to preserve traditional conceptions of Swedish culture, while firmly opposing immigration. The SD says it aims to cut immigration to the country by 90 percent. The party also speaks openly about its staunch anti-Islamist views, with its 35-year-old leader, Jimmie Akesson, saying in a speech that "Islamism is the Nazism and communism of our time." Sweden's Prime Minister Stefan Lofven went as far as to call the party "neo-fascist," which set off a heated debate over the nature of the party.

Perhaps the most distilled representation of their beliefs came in the run-up to the 2010 elections, when Sweden Democrats aired an ad featuring a old woman walking towards pension money, only to be overtaken by a group of women in burqas who storm past her.

Greece.

Widely described as a neo-Nazi party, Golden Dawn has been linked to hundreds of violent attacks against minorities and has organized rallies in which supporters gave Hitler salutes while singing fascist songs. In 2013, Golden Dawn suffered a setback after its leader and 16 other members were arrested in the wake of the murder of an anti-fascist rapper by a Golden Dawn supporter. Mihaloliakos currently remains in jail as his trial continues.

UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... key-points

Farage tries to distance himself from the other right wing parties of Europe despite this in the general election of this year did not gain any seats in parliament. The voting systems differ around Europe.

They are a charming little group eh?

I realise left and right politically may be defined differently in in the US, so thought this might be of some use when reading some of the comments on this thread.

[PregnantPornStar]

PregnantPornStar - have you ever spent and evening talking smack and drinking brewskies and shooting pool with a group of young men (who happen to be muslim)? Have you ever spent time helping the recent immigrant (who happens to be muslim) that works at your corner store to improve his English and understanding of American ways and customs? Have you ever gone to a political rally with an guy (who happens to be muslim) that you met while making calls for the DNC? Do you have any friends, family, co-workers, that happen to be muslim?

I am asking in all sincerity. I am trying to follow along with the conversation and my brain just grinds to a halt every time someone makes gross, sweeping generalizations about this huge group of people - particularly when those generalizations do not fit with my life experience.

Also, thank you for reacting with kindness and courtesy to my mini-rant earlier. I do realize that people often post brief answers that are incomplete when they are short on time. Your pleasant reaction was much appreciated.

:)

I have helped multiple recent immigrants (Muslim) find jobs, register kids for school, etc. and am not a stranger to Muslims on a personal level.

My generalizing and sweeping statements are not intended to do so about individual Muslims, but about Islam. I agree that isn't totally fair, there is some variation and interpretation, but there are also many things within Islam (itself) that are alarming. The Qur'an and Hadith are full of scary stuff. I am not saying the bible isn't, but Islam certainly isn't "the religion of peace".

Islam, by definition, means "submission"

So, the idea is, to fully submit. Fully. Christianity allows a little more wiggle room. Hence the forgiveness stuff and the "everyone makes mistakes" stuff people enjoy spouting. There are Muslims, particularly younger Muslims, that are seeking change. I don't think things are as promising as Reza Aslan likes to say, at least not in the near future, but maybe I am wrong. I hope I am. There are a lot of very devout Muslims. They may not be extremist, and may be what we would consider "moderate" but the very idea of Islam requires a little more devotion than the idea of Christianity (I am over simplifying here. I am up with a toddler because my neighbors suck and won't let their dog in their house. Because dogs are not equal to people. Because "God". For real. This is a real discussion we had with these people.) a Muslim friend once said "Christians let Jesus in their heart, Muslims completely give themselves to Allah". I am not denying that Christians claim to turn themselves over to God.

Islam means you are going to get judged for every fuck up you ever made. This is part of why we see so many devout Muslims. Oddly, I think there are a lot of hypocritical Christians, I can list the ways with the Duggars alone, but Muslims, not as much. I think they truly believe that the Qur'an is it. I am not trying to make sweeping statements, I obviously realize not every Muslim completely submits.

[PregnantPornStar]

The article you posted actually demonstrated that reform is happening. Granted the writer, for clarity and ease simplified by grouping where he sees the changes and why. Interesting opinion. I'm wondering did you actually read it or posted it because of the picture and the first paragraph.

As to your second point about funding, I'm sure you are aware that initially the majority of funding came from the 'West.' I'm also going to assume you know why.

Oil, drugs, trafficking and pillaging are now the main cash cow for ISIS. Mosul being their largest financial gain.There will always be nefarious governments and individuals who will support terrorists for gain. That has been the case for decades if not longer.

Again nobody denies or disagrees that extremists are ....extreme. You continue to make the broad brush stroke of 'Islam' or 'Muslims' as a whole.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a female. It is worth your time to check her out. She also discusses a few people who are prominent in advocating for reform. I have mentioned some of these people and others in previous posts. I think my rambling and the fact that there are a few posts could be why this was missed?

[OkToBeTakei]

:)

I have helped multiple recent immigrants (Muslim) find jobs, register kids for school, etc. and am not a stranger to Muslims on a personal level.

My generalizing and sweeping statements are not intended to do so about individual Muslims, but about Islam. I agree that isn't totally fair, there is some variation and interpretation, but there are also many things within Islam (itself) that are alarming. The Qur'an and Hadith are full of scary stuff. I am not saying the bible isn't, but Islam certainly isn't "the religion of peace".

Islam, by definition, means "submission"

So, the idea is, to fully submit. Fully. Christianity allows a little more wiggle room. Hence the forgiveness stuff and the "everyone makes mistakes" stuff people enjoy spouting. There are Muslims, particularly younger Muslims, that are seeking change. I don't think things are as promising as Reza Aslan likes to say, at least not in the near future, but maybe I am wrong. I hope I am. There are a lot of very devout Muslims. They may not be extremist, and may be what we would consider "moderate" but the very idea of Islam requires a little more devotion than the idea of Christianity (I am over simplifying here. I am up with a toddler because my neighbors suck and won't let their dog in their house. Because dogs are not equal to people. Because "God". For real. This is a real discussion we had with these people.) a Muslim friend once said "Christians let Jesus in their heart, Muslims completely give themselves to Allah". I am not denying that Christians claim to turn themselves over to God.

Islam means you are going to get judged for every fuck up you ever made. This is part of why we see so many devout Muslims. Oddly, I think there are a lot of hypocritical Christians, I can list the ways with the Duggars alone, but Muslims, not as much. I think they truly believe that the Qur'an is it. I am not trying to make sweeping statements, I obviously realize not every Muslim completely submits.

Except not really . You need to dig a little deeper and not misunderstand the subject deliberately to see what you wish to see. The very same can be said of those cherry picking the bible for their own intent.

The Arabic term "Islam" itself is usually translated as "submission"; submission of desires to the will of God. It comes from the term "aslama", which means "to surrender" or "resign oneself".

As in other Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, etc.), peace is a basic concept in Islamic thought.

The greeting "Salaam alaykum", favoured by Muslims, has the literal meaning "Peace be upon you". Muhammad is reported to have said once: "Not one of you believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." (Great Muslim scholars have said that the words ‘his brother’ mean any person irrespective of faith.)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 84960.html

Isis has sharpened many people's sense of paranoia towards Islam. The majority of Muslims have a peaceful reading of the Koran, but as Isis commits more and more atrocities, the argument that the Koran equally invites a violent interpretation of its teachings has begun to gain ground.

A quick internet search that throws up certain passages which, read at face value, could prove these suspicions correct. For example, critics of Islam often cite verses such as: "fight such of the disbelievers as are near to you"; or to "kill the idolaters wherever you find them". Passages such as these leave an impartial observer wondering — is Islam simply a matter of interpretation? Is the line between a peaceful Muslim and a terrorist simply a matter of which verses you follow and which you ignore?

Why there's nothing Islamic about the 'Islamic State'

The Koran clearly states that it contains two types of verses: context-independent verses, and context-dependent verses. Context-independent verses are unambiguous and timeless principles which can be applied in every situation. Context-dependent verses are those that are specific to particular situations, and can’t be read in isolation. The Koran then goes on to condemn those who cherry-pick verses to suit their own selfish ends, and tells its reader to take all the verses together before coming to any conclusions.

"Peace" is one of the literal meanings of Islam, and its ultimate aim. And as such, it explicitly teaches that there is no compulsion in matters of faith. Regarding war, it teaches that Muslims are only ever allowed permitted to fight defensively, stating that "permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged – and Allah indeed has the power to help them".

The verses that are often quoted by critics are, like those at the beginning, cherry-picked context-dependent verses. They were only applicable at a time when war had been openly declared against Muslims because of their faith. They were being driven out of their homes and routinely assassinated. "Fight them until there is no persecution and religion is freely professed for Allah", says the Koran. But if they stop oppressing you, it warns, then remember that "no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors". Verses such as these mention fighting "disbelievers" because the division of the two sides was one of belief – non-Muslims who were the aggressors, and Muslims, who were being killed for their acceptance of Islam.

As for how Muslims should co-exist with peaceful people of other beliefs, the Koran couldn’t be clearer: "Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes". For everyone else, it is taught that you should be kind and act fairly towards them.

So just to be clear: Islam is not simply a matter of interpretation, because the Koran itself tells us how to interpret it. Any other interpretation is either willfully dishonest or just plain ignorant.

Once this has been accepted, then can we recognise the evil of Isis without letting them divide us? It is unity across diversity that is the best way to defeat them. Repel evil with that which is best, says the Koran (or: don't stoop to their level). And this is something that I hope we can all agree on, regardless of our religious beliefs.

[sawasdee]

Thank you, OKTBT, for a really good link to an informed and informative article. I hope everybody in the thread will take the time to read it.

[OkToBeTakei]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a female. It is worth your time to check her out. She also discusses a few people who are prominent in advocating for reform. I have mentioned some of these people and others in previous posts. I think my rambling and the fact that there are a few posts could be why this was missed?

No not missed but looked at in a less general bias.

http://time.com/3825345/what-ayaan-hirs ... out-islam/

Too often, non-Muslims and Muslims alike don’t know enough about Islam to see how flexible Islamic laws can be. Like the violent extremists she rightly opposes, Hirsi takes the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad’s example to be an unbending set of rules and Islam to be “the most rigid religion in the world.” However, its flexibility was one of the reasons it could spread so effectively from Arabia through Asia and Africa, allowing local practices to remain as long as they didn’t contravene its basic tenets.

How could Islam be a rigid set of one-size-fits-all edicts, as the zealots claim, when it’s a faith with followers who range from dreadlocked Oakland grandmas to Hyderabadi mystics to French businessmen? How could it be rigid when interpretations range so widely, running the gamut from bans on women driving (see Saudi Arabia) to giving women the right to lead countries (see Pakistan and Bangladesh)? Such is the decentralized nature of Islam’s majority Sunni sect, which lacks an organized clergy, that it allows followers to go from scholar to scholar until they find an opinion that matches their own.

To reform, Islamic societies needs more Islamic education, not less. The Prophet Muhammad warned his followers against blind faith. A famous anecdote tells of him coming across an Arab nomad walking away from his camel, having neglected to tie it up. When he asked the man why he didn’t secure the beast, the man said, “I put my trust in Allah.” Muhammad’s answer was pithy: “Tie your camel first – then put your trust in Allah.”

[latraviata]

:)

I have helped multiple recent immigrants (Muslim) find jobs, register kids for school, etc. and am not a stranger to Muslims on a personal level.

My generalizing and sweeping statements are not intended to do so about individual Muslims, but about Islam. I agree that isn't totally fair, there is some variation and interpretation, but there are also many things within Islam (itself) that are alarming. The Qur'an and Hadith are full of scary stuff. I am not saying the bible isn't, but Islam certainly isn't "the religion of peace".

Islam, by definition, means "submission"

So, the idea is, to fully submit. Fully. Christianity allows a little more wiggle room. Hence the forgiveness stuff and the "everyone makes mistakes" stuff people enjoy spouting. There are Muslims, particularly younger Muslims, that are seeking change. I don't think things are as promising as Reza Aslan likes to say, at least not in the near future, but maybe I am wrong. I hope I am. There are a lot of very devout Muslims. They may not be extremist, and may be what we would consider "moderate" but the very idea of Islam requires a little more devotion than the idea of Christianity (I am over simplifying here. I am up with a toddler because my neighbors suck and won't let their dog in their house. Because dogs are not equal to people. Because "God". For real. This is a real discussion we had with these people.) a Muslim friend once said "Christians let Jesus in their heart, Muslims completely give themselves to Allah". I am not denying that Christians claim to turn themselves over to God.

Islam means you are going to get judged for every fuck up you ever made. This is part of why we see so many devout Muslims. Oddly, I think there are a lot of hypocritical Christians, I can list the ways with the Duggars alone, but Muslims, not as much. I think they truly believe that the Qur'an is it. I am not trying to make sweeping statements, I obviously realize not every Muslim completely submits.

I've spent years voluntarily teaching Dutch to newcomers (yes muslims) From my profession I have been a coordinator for a few years of an integration project, particularly guiding school children (yes muslim children) in the broadest sense of the word.

A few days ago I signed up as a volunteer to do something with the children of the current refugees and I do not care whether the children are from political or economic refugees. Next friday we come together to create a plan of action.

I always care about children (all children) who are always the innocent party and they are the future.

[PregnantPornStar]

I've spent years voluntarily teaching Dutch to newcomers (yes muslims) From my profession I have been a coordinator for a few years of an integration project, particularly guiding school children (yes muslim children) in the broadest sense of the word.

A few days ago I signed up as a volunteer to do something with the children of the current refugees and I do not care whether the children are from political or economic refugees. Next friday we come together to create a plan of action.

I always care about children (all children) who are always the innocent party and they are the future.

Precisely. Children are the future, and by having a few kind "westerners" help raise them up during a tough time, even if it is a small gesture like a smile or a bigger gesture, such as volunteering to help in some way and becoming involved, we are showing the children that we are all just people.

So, indoctrinate them with kindness and love. :) Possibly one of the easiest ways to prevent radicalization.

[formergothardite]

"But whatever" regarding the claim that Christians are persecuted.

It doesn't appear that way? I am appalled by much of Christianity and most religions. I have really strong feelings about indoctrination of kids, never mind child abuse.

I would really like to know if you are as disturbed about the high number of American Christians who believe in "voting the Bible" and that biblical law should trump the will of the people? Why do you find fundamental Christians less scary? I sure as hell don't. I know you are tired of this, but I'm tired of people making sweeping generalizations about any religion. I got called out a great many times for doing that about Christianity, so it isn't just Islam that people will get called out on for doing this to.

You have stated multiple times on this thread that 50% of Muslims believe in Sharia law and used this as an example of why Islam is more scary, but the study showed:

the survey reveals divergent opinions about the precise application of Islamic law.

and

In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith.

and

Overall, Muslims who pray several times a day are more likely to believe that sharia is the revealed word of God than are those who pray less frequently

So, from where I'm sitting being raised in and around Christian fundamentalist, there isn't a huge difference here because it isn't like all 50% are in favor of the most extreme version of Sharia law. You seem to want to paint Islam as being less evolved, but that just isn't true. If Christian fundamentalist were able to take over America today it would be scary as fuck. If they could legally get away with stoning people and forcing women to cover up, they would. It is one thing to comment about particular problems in a religion, it is another thing to act like everyone in that religion shares the most extreme beliefs, which you have done in this thread. Perhaps not on purpose, but you have. You have also come across as very dismissive about the idea that the fundamentalist in other religions also cause a great deal of harm.

This is a very interesting study.

Results from MANOS and the General Social Surveys reveal that the general American population holds nearly identical levels of fundamentalist beliefs as Muslims, if not slightly more. Just over 57 percent of the general American population believes that “right and wrong in U.S. law should be based on God’s laws,â€

Limiting the sample to those who either identify as Christian or Muslim, figure 2 displays the percentages of Americans who believe that the Bible/Koran should be taken literally, word for word. Making up the largest percentage of Christians in Pew’s U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, 59 percent of evangelical protestants agree that the Bible should be taken literally.

the more fundamentalist, general American population is significantly more likely to believe that Islam encourages violence, compared to native Europeans. Similarly, European Muslims are 15 percent more likely to believe that the West is out to destroy Islam compared to American Muslims.

Altogether, these findings suggest that levels of religious fundamentalism can be found equally among Muslim and Christian adherents in the United States

.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2013/12/16/no-difference-in-religious-fundamentalism-between-american-muslims-and-christians/

[PregnantPornStar]

No not missed but looked at in a less general bias.

http://time.com/3825345/what-ayaan-hirs ... out-islam/

The problem with the time article and multiple other sources trying to oppress Ayaan's voice is that she is someone who came from within. She is talking about really important things that do need reform. Misogyny and oppression are commonplace for many Muslim women. At the very least in "Muslim majority nations" if that phrase suits you better. She is risking her life by doing so and needs constant security. She isn't a stranger to death threats so trying to silence her or disregard her is bowing down to radicals who want her to shut up.

Also, you seemed to agree with her article and accused me of not reading it...because she "demonstrated reform is actually happening."

When I called you out on the fact that I have actually read it and suggested you check her (not him) out, you come back with an opinion piece that is attacking HER opinion. Attacking the very thing she is advocating, and that is reform and speaking out and opinions. The author does this by having an opinion.

[latraviata]

I would really like to know if you are as disturbed about the high number of American Christians who believe in "voting the Bible" and that biblical law should trump the will of the people? Why do you find fundamental Christians less scary? I sure as hell don't. I know you are tired of this, but I'm tired of people making sweeping generalizations about any religion. I got called out a great many times for doing that about Christianity, so it isn't just Islam that people will get called out on for doing this to.

You have stated multiple times on this thread that 50% of Muslims believe in Sharia law and used this as an example of why Islam is more scary, but the study showed:

the survey reveals divergent opinions about the precise application of Islamic law.

and

In most regions, fewer favor other specific aspects of sharia, such as cutting off the hands of thieves and executing people who convert from Islam to another faith.

and

Overall, Muslims who pray several times a day are more likely to believe that sharia is the revealed word of God than are those who pray less frequently

So, from where I'm sitting being raised in and around Christian fundamentalist, there isn't a huge difference here because it isn't like all 50% are in favor of the most extreme version of Sharia law. You seem to want to paint Islam as being less evolved, but that just isn't true. If Christian fundamentalist were able to take over America today it would be scary as fuck. If they could legally get away with stoning people and forcing women to cover up, they would. It is one thing to comment about particular problems in a religion, it is another thing to act like everyone in that religion shares the most extreme beliefs, which you have done in this thread. Perhaps not on purpose, but you have. You have also come across as very dismissive about the idea that the fundamentalist in other religions also cause a great deal of harm.

This is a very interesting study.

Results from MANOS and the General Social Surveys reveal that the general American population holds nearly identical levels of fundamentalist beliefs as Muslims, if not slightly more. Just over 57 percent of the general American population believes that “right and wrong in U.S. law should be based on God’s laws,â€

Limiting the sample to those who either identify as Christian or Muslim, figure 2 displays the percentages of Americans who believe that the Bible/Koran should be taken literally, word for word. Making up the largest percentage of Christians in Pew’s U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, 59 percent of evangelical protestants agree that the Bible should be taken literally.

the more fundamentalist, general American population is significantly more likely to believe that Islam encourages violence, compared to native Europeans. Similarly, European Muslims are 15 percent more likely to believe that the West is out to destroy Islam compared to American Muslims.

Altogether, these findings suggest that levels of religious fundamentalism can be found equally among Muslim and Christian adherents in the United States

.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2013/12/16/no-difference-in-religious-fundamentalism-between-american-muslims-and-christians/

There has been much research done, European and American.

The results vary, but to establish in advance, that the study posted by me is no good, based on nothing, is to say the least, shortsighted.

Ruud Koopmans is a well known and respected researcher, his investigations as it should be, are without political bias.

Results of studies (including studies have been commissioned by the government) are often not published, because they do not fit into the political agenda.

A few months ago the research results were found from a study commissioned by the Scientific Council for Government Policy on the cost of immigration.The survey was conducted a few years ago (2012) and the results were not in accordance with what the relevant minister told the Dutch people.

It was a big scandal.

[PregnantPornStar]

I will respond to FG's post when I can actually sit and discuss this one in more depth. We have guests in town and spotty internet right now. I am not ignoring you.

[Terrie]

If you're going to claim that Islam is a "unique" threat, the burden is on you to prove it. All we've gotten through this whole thread is a claim that Muslim extremists are "typical" of what Islam is "really about." Pointing out the extremism of extremists does not prove your point. It tells us extremists are dangerous, which, thank you, but we already knew that. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Millions upon millions of them are not extremists. Putting them in the same group as extremists is like claiming every critic of Islam or fundamentalist Christian is Anders Behring Breivik.

[formergothardite]

Latraviata:

There has been much research done, European and American.

The results vary, but to establish in advance, that the study posted by me is no good, based on nothing, is to say the least, shortsighted.

Ruud Koopmans is a well known and respected researcher, his investigations as it should be, are without political bias.

Results of studies (including studies have been commissioned by the government) are often not published, because they do not fit into the political agenda.

A few months ago the research results were found from a study commissioned by the Scientific Council for Government Policy on the cost of immigration.The survey was conducted a few years ago (2012) and the results were not in accordance with what the relevant minister told the Dutch people.

It was a big scandal.

I'm not sure where you got I was dismissing the Koopmans study. I read it and thought it was interesting that it was about both fundamental Christians and Muslims in Europe and how it showed that there is diversity in Muslim beliefs.

I get your frustration in repressing or downplaying information for political reasons.

[latraviata]

If you're going to claim that Islam is a "unique" threat, the burden is on you to prove it. All we've gotten through this whole thread is a claim that Muslim extremists are "typical" of what Islam is "really about." Pointing out the extremism of extremists does not prove your point. It tells us extremists are dangerous, which, thank you, but we already knew that. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Millions upon millions of them are not extremists. Putting them in the same group as extremists is like claiming every critic of Islam or fundamentalist Christian is Anders Behring Breivik.

You got that right, I am an islam critic, but I am most certainly not an Anders Breivik I am not even a racist for that matter. I'am a concerned citizen who doens't even vote for Geert Wilders, but posted 2 stupid links yesterday.

Radicalisation happens and it happens fast which is an irrefutable fact. Isis is a good example, many young European muslims left their country to join Isis.

I am posting Brigitte Gabriel again, you either listen or you don't. I don't care, but she has a point to consider.

[bBvideo 560,340:2spcaod3]http://therightscoop.com/brigitte-gabriel-gives-fantastic-answer-to-muslim-woman-claiming-all-muslims-are-portrayed-badly/[/bBvideo]

[latraviata]

Latraviata:

I'm not sure where you got I was dismissing the Koopmans study. I read it and thought it was interesting that it was about both fundamental Christians and Muslims in Europe and how it showed that there is diversity in Muslim beliefs.

I get your frustration in repressing or downplaying information for political reasons.

That doesn't help the situation at all, by downplaying information they (the politic) give the right wing the opportunity to jump into that void. This is the last I want.

[formergothardite]

That doesn't help the situation at all, by downplaying information they (the politic) give the right wing the opportunity to jump into that void. This is the last I want.

ITA. People need to be presented with unbiased facts so that decisions can be made. But people also need to make sure that they don't take those facts as an excuse to be prejudiced against an entire group of people and that can easily happen. We have seen it in this very thread.

[latraviata]

ITA. People need to be presented with unbiased facts so that decisions can be made. But people also need to make sure that they don't take those facts as an excuse to be prejudiced against an entire group of people and that can easily happen. We have seen it in this very thread.

I read both sides and I lived, among others, in the Arabic peninsula. But I'll be damned to vote for a right wing party, which is the advantage of a coalition due to a multiparty system.

[Terrie]

ITA. People need to be presented with unbiased facts so that decisions can be made. But people also need to make sure that they don't take those facts as an excuse to be prejudiced against an entire group of people and that can easily happen. We have seen it in this very thread.

Agreed. I have never, and will never, say that Muslim extremists aren't dangerous. However, by dumping all Muslims into one group of condemnation and acting like Muslim extremists are "uniquely" dangerous (I was at the Atlanta Olympics. My family cut things short after the bombing), we're not making people safer. We're giving non-Muslim extremists a pass and we're putting non-extremist Muslims at risk of being victims of hate crimes. I've seen that much too often, and that's one reason I find the broad strokes of people who characterize the issues of extremism as issues of Islam to be such a big issue.

[latraviata]

Agreed. I have never, and will never, say that Muslim extremists aren't dangerous. However, by dumping all Muslims into one group of condemnation and acting like Muslim extremists are "uniquely" dangerous (I was at the Atlanta Olympics. My family cut things short after the bombing), we're not making people safer. We're giving non-Muslim extremists a pass and we're putting non-extremist Muslims at risk of being victims of hate crimes. I've seen that much too often, and that's one reason I find the broad strokes of people who characterize the issues of extremism as issues of Islam to be such a big issue.

An interesting look at the case and I agree with it.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/

[Terrie]

An interesting look at the case and I agree with it.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/

This does not address giving a pass to non-Muslim extremists, not does it address how broad strokes rhetoric fuels hate crime against moderate Muslims, so I'm not sure why you're linking to it.

[Whoosh]

This does not address giving a pass to non-Muslim extremists, not does it address how broad strokes rhetoric fuels hate crime against moderate Muslims, so I'm not sure why you're linking to it.

I want to thank everyone who is taking the time to engage in this conversation as I really am learning things I should have known long ago. I also much appreciate you all tolerating and responding to my fairly uninformed emotion-based posts.

Thanks also PregnantPornStar and Latravita for responding to my previous question about personal relationships and experiences. Perhaps once I hit 75 posts I will start a thread entitled "Woosh's wild times - the early years" and some of my comments will make more sense. :whistle:

Terrie is asking the questions here that have been nagging at me the most. One thing I would add (and this has been touched upon in this conversation) is that it is my sense, keeping in mind I am not on top of all the information I should be, that blanket condemnation of Islam as a whole actually spurs radicalization to some degree - specifically here in the USA but perhaps globally. OKTBT shared an article in response to one of my posts that somewhat backs this idea. The disenfranchised, isolated and down-trodden (for lack of a better word) would seem to be at much higher risk for falling prey to the influences of extremists.

FWIW - I grew up as an atheist raised Episcopalian in the liberal northeast. I went through a period of anti-theism when living in Utah before realizing that I was not comfortable with that stance for a variety of reasons. I now consider myself decidedly a non theist who tries to do her part to fight the harms of fundamentalism and extremism.

[latraviata]

This does not address giving a pass to non-Muslim extremists, not does it address how broad strokes rhetoric fuels hate crime against moderate Muslims, so I'm not sure why you're linking to it.

No. but I thought it was interesting. The conversation does not always have to be on edge, does it?