Pedophiles don't change their spots

[Howl]

Well, it's. about. damn. time. Hoping Leithart's apology was a healing balm to both Natalie Rose and others of her family.

[Cleopatra7]

Ding ding ding ding ding! As a graduate of Moscow, I think this entire post is spot on. I see a lot of people painting Doug Wilson as pure evil or a manipulator himself etc etc.... That's a little over the top to me. I spent four years sitting in his classes and church services and he advised my thesis. From my personal impressions of him -- I never liked him much and did not admire him as much as everyone else did. But his teachings are not pure evil and honestly I still see much of them as sincere. The problem I think is his over-weening pride and arrogance, which is poisoning his entire movement. The true evil is his willingness to let someone tickle his ear. That's what set off the dominoes to result in this execrable behavior by (and to) so many people I know and love.

So true. Again, the hubris and arrogance. Also the ignorance which is now being perpetuated -- so many people believing that safeguards against molestation, especially re-offence, don't need to be that stringent.

This hashtag makes me happy.

Also, one of the #healthekirk posts reproduces a statement from Peter Leithart (pastor of Jamin Wight at the time) which reads in part:

I am so thrilled to see an actual honest apology. Dr. Leithart was someone I DID personally respect and reading Natalie's blog implicating him in siding with Jamin against her was so saddening. I am very pleased to see him publicly and humbly admit that he was fooled and did wrong.

Robert Ingersoll, a famous agnostic orator from the nineteenth century had these spot-on words about how easy repentance is great for criminals and abusers, but ignores justice for the victims:

I do not believe that angels can be made so readily from rascals. I have but little confidence in repentance without retribution, and a husband who has driven a wife to insanity and death by his cruelty -- afterward repenting and finding himself in heaven, and missing his wife -- were he worthy to be an angel, would wander all the gulfs of hell until he clasped her once again.

[libriatrix]

If only all the pastors involved had expected and looked for repentance like that from Sitler and Wight! And if they had recognized that even true repentance doesn't wipe out consequences for sins committed. Consequences like, for a repentant child molester, never being alone with a child again and never fathering them.

[nelliebelle1197]

I have been reading the Sitlers' wedding blog. Steven freaks me out. He totally reminds me physically of my best friend's ex, who is an abusive, manipulative sicko who continues to try to her for the crime of leaving him 8 years later.

His mom is a jewellery designer

https://www.facebook.com/pages/BellaRox ... =page_info

Her Etsy page is more active than FB. From her thumbnail, she looks lovely and normal. I do not know how she reconciles having produced this... sick creature... with the beauty she strives to create. I keep thinking not about the ridic calvinist mudslinging, but about the families of Katie and Steven. How must it feel as a parent to know this is what you produced?

[hoipolloi]

Carmon Friedrich has weighed in with public posts on FB:

Part I: https://www.facebook.com/notes/10153640 ... nref=story

Part II: https://www.facebook.com/notes/carmon-f ... 2531589479

Part III: https://www.facebook.com/notes/carmon-f ... 8172674479

Part IV: https://www.facebook.com/notes/carmon-f ... 1972074479

[Beammeup]

Re: activity at end of 2014. I listened to the audio files and read pretty much all the court documents.

Sitler's computer was seized. I don't know if it was a tip or a probation random seizure. It took a long time to give it back. The prosecutor said the reason was the computer tech who does that had to investigate a triple homocide aND wasn't available. There seems to be one other person in IDOC who does this, and he is understandably busy. The prosecutor said they initially believed they found child porn but on further investigation they didn't have child porn. The defense wanted an order saying that they have a week to return any computers. Judge was Aww nope. The probation report on when he got his computer back said he threw it into the back of his truck, so I'm not sure how much he really wanted that computer back.

Side note: anything he has is a privilege. His other option is jail. So being without your computer would still be better than jail in the mind of the courts. Or it should be.

Fyi: the prosecutor is amazing. Go listen to him passionately argue for the baby.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I am so thrilled to see an actual honest apology. Dr. Leithart was someone I DID personally respect and reading Natalie's blog implicating him in siding with Jamin against her was so saddening. I am very pleased to see him publicly and humbly admit that he was fooled and did wrong.

I don't know Dr. Leithart, though I know of him. I have to say that when I read his post, my first thought was that I definitely respect him for jumping in there and admitting in a public form that he was wrong and had been fooled.

[onlyme]

I've met him and he's preached at my old church's family camp. I don't think he loves Doug quite so much. He says he doesn't want it to reflect on anyone else, but it's unavoidable. Such a simple thing-an apology. We were naive. We didn't look as closely as we should have. I'm sorry for the hurt.

Meanwhile Doug's supporters rail on with guilt deferring, ducking behind other issues, sarcasm yet scolding those who use it back on them....

Oh look! Abortion!

[older than allosaurs]

Slightly on topic:

I was googling CREC churches (Doug's homemade denomination) in my area, wondering if I know anyone who goes to one. I found this in the What We Believe Section of one:

"Unbelievers know God, but suppress their knowledge of Him in wickedness. They need repentance, not evidence."

I realize this idea is common to Reformed theology, not just Doug's, but it helps me understand the nasty, sarcastic, demeaning undercurrent of so many of his supporters' comments. They think we deserve contempt--God's and theirs both--and it gives them a real tingle to give it to us. They are one step away from the folks who've been gathering with signs on downtown corners in my community, using bullhorns to inform us we are all bound for hell.

What a lousy mindset to be stuck with.

[libriatrix]

Guess what, guess what, y'all -- I just found Doug Wilson's new best friend!

When I asked him why he once called noted fantasy author NK Jemisin an “educated, but ignorant half-savage†on his blog, he said it wasn’t because she is black, then launched into an explication of what he called “new†genetic research that he says he doesn’t expect very many people to understand (but which he claims supports his use of the term “half-savageâ€).

When I said that he was intentionally baiting a person of color with a word that has racial overtones, he acknowledged, “I’m calling her a half-savage because I know it’s going to offend the crap out of her, because she’s going to run around screaming, ‘Racist! Racist!’ for the next 10 years.â€

.... Doug's just so sad he didn't think of this first, I know it. This is exactly the way he operates.

(Article: wired.com/2015/08/won-science-fictions-hugo-awards-matters

Person quoted: Theodore Beale, published as Vox Day)

(I would make this a new thread if I had the seniority to do so.)

[Sobeknofret]

Carmon Friedrich has weighed in with public posts on FB:

Part I: https://www.facebook.com/notes/10153640 ... nref=story

Part II: https://www.facebook.com/notes/carmon-f ... 2531589479

Part III: https://www.facebook.com/notes/carmon-f ... 8172674479

Part IV: https://www.facebook.com/notes/carmon-f ... 1972074479

So, Carmon seems to have left patriarchy for conservative Christianity. Very interesting; she and Sproul Jr. were tight once upon a time, but I wonder when she decided patriarchy wasn't for her anymore.

[GenerationCedarchip]

So, Carmon seems to have left patriarchy for conservative Christianity. Very interesting; she and Sproul Jr. were tight once upon a time, but I wonder when she decided patriarchy wasn't for her anymore.

I don't know if any one incident drove her out of patriarchy, but she has been headed out of the QF/patriarchy world for many years now. She wrote some articles about it at a site called Visionary Womanhood, which is itself an interesting site to read because the owner was deep in VF-influenced circles and has recently started questioning and coming out of it. I know we snarked on Visionary Womanhood back when she was still deep in VF, but she really seems to be changing quite a bit. Here's the first part of Friedrich's writings there: visionarywomanhood.com/no-more-fake/

[hoipolloi]

So, Carmon seems to have left patriarchy for conservative Christianity. Very interesting; she and Sproul Jr. were tight once upon a time, but I wonder when she decided patriarchy wasn't for her anymore.

A major catalyst for change seems to have been the discovery (or acknowledgement) of a pedophile within their extended family or community -- possibly the FIL mentioned in one of these FB posts. Judging from Carmon's various comment, this forced her & her husband to step back from the patriarchy bullshit and consider what it had done to their family. IIRC, the molester's victims included some of Carmon's children.

Not sure of the timeline but she was a major VF leg jumper & pusher of patriarchy when I first became aware of this subculture, around 2004. She had her own blog at that time (Buried Treasure), co-founded the Prairie Muffins group blog (which included Kelley 2 Breasts Crawford, IIRC). These websites & the VF leg humping went on for a few years till around 2010-2011 when she sort of sank out of sight, closed her own website & so on. The vehement posts about child sex abuse, patriarchy & so on seem to date to within the past 1-2 years.

Will have to check out the Visionary Womanhood blog.

[Howl]

Guess what, guess what, y'all -- I just found Doug Wilson's new best friend!

.... Doug's just so sad he didn't think of this first, I know it. This is exactly the way he operates.

(Article: wired.com/2015/08/won-science-fictions-hugo-awards-matters

Person quoted: Theodore Beale, published as Vox Day

"Pox" Day is a piece of work. My head is still spinning after reading that article.

Yes, there seems to be something mean spirited about Doug.

There was some speculation in the comments on a blog post...somewhere....about the possibility that Doug is over indulging with Scottish whiskey, possibly on a regular basis, and this brings about blog posts where Doug natters on about this and that without getting anywhere. I must say, that makes sense of Doug Wilson's nonsense. Who knows.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

This commentary is interesting to read (caveat: This is the first time I've encountered this pastor.)

baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/pastoral-care-men-and-women-who-are-sexual-predators-against-children

I'm not sure about the distinction he makes between predatory and opportunistic. He goes into it more in the comments.

I'm still processing.

[MamaJunebug]

Please drop by The Wartburg Watch and Spiritual Sounding Board to stay updated on the Wilson Wight Sitler situations. Wilson's supporters are attempting to take down blogs (succeeding in one case - temporarily, I pray!) and to censor materials previously in the public domain.

The SSB blogger is meeting with citizens in Moscow, ID, this weekend. In TWW news, the Southern Baptist Church has accepted the founder and former leader of Sovereign Grace Ministries ... which would have me on my way out the door were I a member of an SBC congregation.

[Howl]

The Wartburg Watchers (Dee & Dee?) I think created the Steven Sitler timeline Website or were, at least, instrumental in its creation.

Wilson's supporters are attempting to take down blogs (succeeding in one case - temporarily, I pray!) and to censor materials previously in the public domain.

Sounds similar to Katie Botkin's experience of having her email hacked....Headed over to SSB and WBW right now.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

The Wartburg Watchers (Dee & Dee?) I think created the Steven Sitler timeline Website or were, at least, instrumental in its creation.

I was under the impression that the creator was using the SN "Ulysses" - I saw him post thanks to WBW, but I didn't think he was them or vice versa . . . .

Doug Wilson's followers seem rabid enough to do things IRL that totally cross lines.

[Howl]

I was under the impression that the creator was using the SN "Ulysses" - I saw him post thanks to WBW, but I didn't think he was them or vice versa . . . .

Doug Wilson's followers seem rabid enough to do things IRL that totally cross lines.

Ah, that makes sense. I've seen Ulysses commenting here and there regarding this topic.

Off to check Katie Botkin's blog now.

ETA, I've just discovered the CREC Memes web site. Awesomely funny and also has links to all the blogs and sites currently discussing Doug Wilson, Sitler/Wight, CREC

crecmemes.wordpress.com/

[SpoonfulOSugar]

Looking around the Sitler site, and this is what's on the contact page:

We welcome comments, feedback, or leads. In particular, if you know what happened to Roy, please send us a note.

Anyone know who Roy is?

[GenerationCedarchip]

Looking around the Sitler site, and this is what's on the contact page:

Anyone know who Roy is?

Not 100% sure. The president of New St. Andrews was named Roy Atwood, and I think he's no longer there, so maybe that's what the poster meant?

[Howl]

He left New St. Andrews in May and moved on to other (greener?) pastures:

Roy Alden Atwood, 62, is the Abraham Kuyper Distinguished Professor of Classics at Morthland College and Director of the Founders Institute for Public Policy in West Frankfort, IL, USA.

He previously served as President and Senior Fellow at New Saint Andrews College in Moscow, ID, USA (2000-2015). He was a faculty member at the University of Idaho for 17 years and served as the director of the School of Communication (1995-2000). Before taking the post at the University of Idaho, he taught at Gonzaga University in Spokane, WA, USA (1981-84). He holds a Ph.D. in Mass Communication from the University of Iowa, an M.A. in Religion from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, PA, and a B.A. in Philosophy from Dordt College in Iowa.

[libriatrix]

Well, it's. about. damn. time. Hoping Leithart's apology was a healing balm to both Natalie Rose and others of her family.

Natalie posted a reply on facebook:

Those words…I’ve imagined hearing or reading those words thousands of times in the last 10 years of my life. The power your words of humility have in my heart is profound, but it pales in comparison with the power they have to start conversations on a much larger scale – conversations that desperately need to be had. We go one step at a time, thank you for YOUR step. Your words are like balm.

[onlyme]

"Gary Greenfield Dear Peter, As I stated in my last letter to you, yes, I do forgive you for your pastoral failures in regards to the way you dealt with Natalie's abuse. What you have to this day neglected to repent of is your complicity in ripping my marriage apart with your own abusive and irresponsible accusations against me in front of my wife. When we came to you for pastoral care regarding our marriage, I knew I was going into the lions den but I was desperate to win my wife back and she is the one who insisted on meeting with you. It is still vivid in my memory watching my wife break down emotionally and run out of the restaurant we met at because of your accusations against me of being a heretic and idolator because I was embracing the ancient faith of Eastern Orthodoxy."

Her father, though, still isn't so eager to make nice and forget all about it.

The pain this family has gone through is breath taking.

[DomWackTroll]

It has got to be so hard for Natalie with her mother still in that church and in thrall to Doug Wilson! I really feel for her.