Pedophiles don't change their spots

[Howl]

I don't really follow the Doug Wilson threads, because he disgusts me. However, I came across this and thought some of you might be interested.

dougwilsonarchive.wordpress.com/

Erma gerd, it is a treasure trove indeed! It also linked to dougsplotch.net, which has the dirty dealings laid out in black and white (literally, white text on black background, but the reading was so fascinating I forgot that this is my least favorite text format). The garage casino set up by the elder's son is something else.

[browncoatslytherin]

....and vigilance! As Jon Steward says, "The best defense against bullsh*t is vigilance. If you smell something, say something!"

Hoping Julie Anne had a chance to meet with Katie Botkin while she was in Moscow.

CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!

sorry, i couldn't help myself. carry on.

[EmiGirl]

I read Doug Wilson's response to Rod Dreher, but to make sense of it, I had to head to Katie Botkin (Culture, Adventure, Stillness) and Spiritual Sounding Board to comprehend the full awfulness of Doug Wilson and to have Natalie's response.

It is getting pretty het up out there, but I don't see Doug ever being "defrocked".

From the Christ Church constitution:

Each household, rather than each person, of Christ Church gets one vote.

In other words, the person who is the penisholder gets to vote.

[onlyme]

I used to say that the only way a woman could be heard was if her husband died or if he was rebellious and excommunicated. Those were the only ways she could go to a "Head of Household Meeting". So they got at least a little respect-the rest of us had to go home and shut up. "No scotch for you!"

[DomWackTroll]

“In partnership with Canon Press, Kirk Cameron presents…â€

canonpress.com/kill-the-dragon/

Hey, Doug-- didn’t you used to make fun of that other Doug for hanging out with silly, non-intellectual celebu-fundies like Kirk? He ain’t no Hitchens, is he? But I guess beggars can’t be choosers.

[DomWackTroll]

October 3, 2015

The CREC began a process a couple of weeks ago aimed at addressing the legitimate questions and concerns regarding some of the past actions and practices of two cases of sexual abuse. We take these matters seriously and seek to address them fully. In keeping with the CREC Constitution and our regular church order, the session of Christ Church, Moscow, ID, has invited the presiding ministers of each presbytery to inquire into the pastoral care and counseling ministry of Christ Church, with particular regard to their handling of sexual abuse cases, not excluding the two cases that have been the subject of some recent controversy. In short, are their practices in this area operating within a biblical framework and consistent with the law? Are they operating competently and in good faith?

This invitation means that under the direction of their chair, the committee is invited to ask any questions of members of the Christ Church session and pastoral staff, and they can have complete access to their minutes, records, files, etc. Christ Church is asking this committee to issue a public report in the next few months. Moreover, they have requested that the presiding ministers satisfy themselves as to the health and soundness of their pastoral care in such circumstances, and to provide them with their counsel and advice where they see any deficiencies.

Pastor Douglas Wilson is the current Presiding Minister of the CREC Council, and he has recused himself in this matter. As the current Presiding Minister pro tempore of the CREC Council, I will assume the role of Presiding Minister of Council in these matters and will chair the committee of the seven presiding ministers of our presbyteries, which I have appointed to this review committee.

Randy Booth

Acting Presiding Minister, CREC Council

crechurches.org/documents/announcements/2015-CCMoscow-inquiry.php

I see. Well, I'm sure everything's on the up and up, then.

[Howl]

New posts from Katie Botkin and Julie Anne

Katie Botkin: The dangers of keeping things in the church

kbotkin.com/2015/10/04/the-dangers-of-keeping-things-in-the-church/

Julie Anne at Splritual Sounding Board addresses DomWackTroll's post above:

Doug Wilson’s Christ Church and Handling of Sex Abuse Cases to be Investigated by Insider?

spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/10/04/doug-wilsons-christ-church-and-handling-of-sex-abuse-cases-to-be-investigated-by-insider/

excerpt from Julie Anne's post:

Conflict of Interest of Mammoth Proportions

Grace Covenant Presbyterian Church is a CREC church. Randy Booth is an insider at CREC. He is no outside, independent investigator AT ALL. In fact, he has co-authored a book with Douglas Wilson entitled, A Justice Primer (An excerpt of the book can be found here.), published by Canon Press (Doug Wilson’s gig). Do you see a conflict of interest here?

These two men have teamed up to write a book on how to handle cases just like the pedophile cases in which Wilson has found himself embroiled for the last several years. In writing this book, Randy and Doug are intimately connected with the content, they believe and endorse their interpretations and conclusions. These two men believe this book provides the answer to the cases that Wilson finds himself in today.

[RosyDaisy]

This is an issue my church takes very seriously. Child abuse and domestic abuse of any kind is reported, and the abusers are called out on it. Things like this are never kept "within the church". Abuse is a crime and should be handled by the justice system.

[MamaJunebug]

Kbotkin.com has new comments to her post from early this week. Heather Ofwilson attempts to argue with our Katie, and potentially discredit her. The results are -- all at the same time -- laughable (on Ofwilson's part) and heartening (on the parts of Katie and her minions).

I'm proud to be an Intolerista.

[Howl]

Thinking about this whole thing, I can't see Doug being unseated as pastor unless through an IRS settlement that bankrupts the church or a legal settlement related to enabling child abuse that bankrupts the church. My impression is that the whole Kirk (schools, church, press) thing is a Wilson family mafia protected by faithful lieutenants (elders and deans of Grayfriars and New Saint Andrews).

I was thinking about a blog post with a link to a letter in pdf format. The letter was from the head of Logos School (in Moscow, ID) to someone with a contract with the school and it was to let the recipient know that the contract was being terminated because the contractor had signed a human rights petition. The person writing the letter indicates that signing this petition was disrespecting Doug Wilson.

Now, Doug Wilson claims not to be directly involved with Logos School, although the children of many Christ Church members attend and there are numerous other links.

If anyone can find the link to this letter, please post up. The letter is very telling about how things are handled in Moscow, ID.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Thinking about this whole thing, I can't see Doug being unseated as pastor unless through an IRS settlement that bankrupts the church or a legal settlement related to enabling child abuse that bankrupts the church. My impression is that the whole Kirk (schools, church, press) thing is a Wilson family mafia protected by faithful lieutenants (elders and deans of Grayfriars and New Saint Andrews).

I was thinking about a blog post with a link to a letter in pdf format. The letter was from the head of Logos School (in Moscow, ID) to someone with a contract with the school and it was to let the recipient know that the contract was being terminated because the contractor had signed a human rights petition. The person writing the letter indicates that signing this petition was disrespecting Doug Wilson.

Now, Doug Wilson claims not to be directly involved with Logos School, although the children of many Christ Church members attend and there are numerous other links.

If anyone can find the link to this letter, please post up. The letter is very telling about how things are handled in Moscow, ID.

Haven't seen the letter, but yikes. That sounds like the stuff that used to go on in my old church. For a variety of reasons, things aren't going on to this extent under current leadership, but when I was there, church leaders held some key positions in my town and in various organizations in the area. So it did at times feel like you had to toe the church line, or else risk your livelihood, future prospects, etc...

[onlyme]

http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision ... 06103.html

http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision ... 06103.html

Detailing the denial of bathroom privileges, spankings and the tradition of birthday spanking on children at Logos school. Sick as hell. If any school did this to my kid.....

[onlyme]

...And Howl, I think this is the letter you are looking for:

http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalo ... Letter.htm

[Howl]

...And Howl, I think this is the letter you are looking for:

http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalo ... Letter.htm

Thank you so much for posting that link! That IS the letter. Shocking, isn't it? I reread it and the tone is even more shocking than the first time I read it. It is a brutally "either you are for us or you are against us" environment. I have to wonder how the Kirk Hive monitored the signatures on this petition?

[DomWackTroll]

Well, someone finally had the balls to start a thread on the Puritan Board, and once the floodgates were opened, the remarks were scathing:

I was always concerned when some here and plenty elsewhere (*cough*Baylys*cough*) hold him up solely for his 'complementarian' views. They'd fellowship with him (probably not the ones on the board though) but not egalitarians who adhere to sola fide.

He's clearly not [ordained]. Like the movie, The Apostle, he essentially ordained himself… His answer to the blog post was, essentially that Spurgeon was never ordained and that Calvin probably never was either. Since Doug is on par with both then, by extension, ordination is something that other people require for ministry. Apparently, Jesus and Doug are enough and anyone who says otherwise doesn't realize that God put this fighter in the right place at the right time to deal with the evils of today's society.

From reading Wilson's "clever Dick" Credenda/Agenda magazines in the '90s, and then seeing his descent into heresy, I can see that the Evil One can carry very clever people away in their own "brilliance", if they don't watch and pray.

puritanboard.com/showthread.php/87950-A-Question-for-Doug-Wilson-Fans

Ooh, the “H†word!!!

[onlyme]

Thank you so much for posting that link! That IS the letter. Shocking, isn't it? I reread it and the tone is even more shocking than the first time I read it. It is a brutally "either you are for us or you are against us" environment. I have to wonder how the Kirk Hive monitored the signatures on this petition?

Creepy for sure. I wish I knew what the petition was for. And yes, how they know he signed it as well. I feel for the "nonkirk" residents of Moscow. I wonder how they feel. I know University of Idaho is there too, so that must provide some balance, but it must be unsettling to have this huge group that seem to have so much power. I wish some super sluth reporter would take it up and really dig into where that man's tentacles reach.

I accidentally posted the same article twice above, sorry about that. The second one I wanted to post is here:

http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision ... 06078.html

The second one is more detailed. Some quotes:

"That week I also met for several hours with Doug Wilson's

brother and his wife, because I had a hunch the school was lying about

why they had abruptly left a year earlier. I was right and indeed they

had been fired, the school had lied about it. We had a candid

discussion about everything, my concerns, and we shared openly and

freely. I asked them if I could make a difference by presenting my

grievances to the school board. Their response? They said I probably

wouldn't be taken seriously, that I was too sexy."

"....... I wanted some explanations as to what they were doing to

my children. After Mrs. Jordan could not give me an explanation why she

punished my child for not being able to "hold it" and confronting her

about her friend who had frequent bladder infections for fear of

punishment, and realizing why I had to take my son to the doctor for so

many years since he attended her class because he was wetting his pants

for no apparent reason, the teacher threw a paper I presented her from

the American Medical Association at me a paper about "forced waste

retention" and fiercely defended her position stating I was wrong...."

"...That day, my son was sent home with a letter, threatening

me, stating that my daughter was to come to school to be punished for

criticizing Christ Church. It was then and there I decided there is no

way my children can spend another day in this school, and so that was

it, their last day at Logos..."

" ....Friday, I found out which reporters and news editors were

charmed by this charismatic, arrogant, fat man. Were they charmed,

threatened, or just afraid to expose the evil? For whatever reason, the

editors, chose not to report my attempts to go public with evidence I

had of child abuse against students at Logos/Christ Church, including my

own. I think this outrages many in Moscow who caught wind of my story.

The Lewiston Tribune, whose editors Paul Emerson, Diane Pettit and Cathy

Kessinger

axed David Johnson's story chronicling my ten-minute confrontation

with Wilson for what they call "legal reasons." Is that for fear of

retaliation? In the alternative, the Tribune painted this nice picture

of this event. Moscow-Pullman Daily News paid mere "lip service" to my

case against the school..."

This is just a sample of what this mom went through when she confronted the horrible practices of spankings, (including birthday spankings? Again, what the hell? They were sent to the office for a spanking? When I was a kid, birthday spankings were something that older people pretended they were going to do but winded up giving you a little candy or something instead. And strictly a relative thing. NOT a school policy.) And kids as young as 5 being punished for not being able to hold in their pee long enough? And the spanking policy goes up to 6th grade. 12 year olds? What. The. Freaking. Hell???

Dear God I wish someone would pick this up. Somebody who can really get in there and get answers. The poor children! And their parents sound almost like sci-fi.

[Howl]

onlyme, the letter from Logos school referenced a human rights petition.

Just when I think things can't get any worse with these people, it does. Katie Botkin has referred to the harshness (brutality in some instances) of child "discipline" within Kirk families. The fact that there is also institutional violence just makes me ill.

The good to come out of this all? Intoleristas are shining a very, very bright light into the policies and practices of this church. In this instance, the internet is having to take the place of the Moscow print media, who seem too intimidated to go after any hot button issues related to Christ Church, either because they are related somehow to Christ Church, or feel too intimidated by Doug Wilson & Co. to move forward or (likely) both.

And even if the people in the pews are warned against it, you can be sure they are reading widely online.

Two of my favorite phrases/terms to come out of this thread:

"No scotch for you!"

penisholder

Wonder if DW is drinking straight out of the bottle yet?

[TrueRebel1]

Thinking about this whole thing, I can't see Doug being unseated as pastor unless through an IRS settlement that bankrupts the church or a legal settlement related to enabling child abuse that bankrupts the church. My impression is that the whole Kirk (schools, church, press) thing is a Wilson family mafia protected by faithful lieutenants (elders and deans of Grayfriars and New Saint Andrews).

I was thinking about a blog post with a link to a letter in pdf format. The letter was from the head of Logos School (in Moscow, ID) to someone with a contract with the school and it was to let the recipient know that the contract was being terminated because the contractor had signed a human rights petition. The person writing the letter indicates that signing this petition was disrespecting Doug Wilson.

Now, Doug Wilson claims not to be directly involved with Logos School, although the children of many Christ Church members attend and there are numerous other links.

If anyone can find the link to this letter, please post up. The letter is very telling about how things are handled in Moscow, ID.

Howl, I have spent much time in Moscow, and can tell you that the word "mafia" is very fitting. Walking downtown, many of the offices are Christ-Church affiliated "businesses" -- whether for the church itself, or St. Andrews, or Cannon Press or Logas. (And yes, Logas IS part of Christ Church, no matter what else they try to tell you. There are very few children who attend the school who's families are not affiliated with CC in some way.) The shops and business downtown are dominated by owners who are deeply involved in Christ Church. Everything from thrift shops, to coffee shops, to theaters, to dance studios. For all practical purposes, Wilson owns a huge part of the small town of Moscow. It will be an interesting day if an when the Wilson empire collapses!

[onlyme]

When I was a kid there was a town in Oregon that was taken over by a cult group. Sometimes I wonder if the people from Moscow don't feel kind of the same way.

[Maxwell]

...And Howl, I think this is the letter you are looking for:

http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalo ... Letter.htm

I poked around that site and found a debate between Doug Wilson and Nick Gier from January 31, 2007, regarding slavery. In part 3 of that debate, in response to a statement from Mr. Gier about how slaves were being treated, Doug Wilson say this:

…If I had been a pastor in the Antebellum south and I had been confronted with a member of my church who raped or abused any of his slaves, I would have led the charge in excommunicating such a one for professing the name of Christ while behaving that way AND if he'd been abusing his slaves the way you described I would not have any problem with urging the civil magistrate to execute such a person.

…

I just telling you what my convictions are. My convictions are, with out having to answer for all the sins of the world, my convictions are that no one, bearing the image of God, has the right to abuse or degrade anyone else regardless of color, regardless of race, regardless of ethnicity, who also bears the image of God. There's just no right for that.

I dunno... the hypocrisy sorta speaks for itself and I don't have much to add but thought it might need to be posted.

[snarkopolis]

It's wonderful that Passor Wilson would condemn someone who treated their slaves poorly. Cuz the owning part is sooooo okay. What an a@#h&$%.

[DomWackTroll]

Women who have abortions are way worse than child molesters, so whatever:

As a pastor, I have in the past counseled and worked with child molesters. But I have also counseled and worked with people who have done worse things than that to children, and have received no criticism at all for doing so. For example, not only have I offered the body and blood of Christ to repentant sexual offenders, I have also offered the holy elements to repentant Christians who in the past have procured abortions. That would be something worse, would it not?

Plus The Gays are somehow involved with this, as always:

This last summer that same court, with all the black-robed gravitas it could muster, opined that a man can find fulfillment, must needs find fulfillment, by achieving sexual congress with another man’s sewage canal, and that he has a constitutional right to have this perversion decked out in the terminology of holy matrimony.

dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/a-different-kind-of-deplorable-word.html

[onlyme]

I poked around that site and found a debate between Doug Wilson and Nick Gier from January 31, 2007, regarding slavery. In part 3 of that debate, in response to a statement from Mr. Gier about how slaves were being treated, Doug Wilson say this:

I dunno... the hypocrisy sorta speaks for itself and I don't have much to add but thought it might need to be posted.

Liar. Actually, he would have taken such a slave to a back room of the church and questioned them minutely about the length of their shorts, whether or not they were submissive, and every little detail about their sexual experience. Then (after deliciously going over the details of the conversation in his mind.) he would bar the slave from communion, hugged the "repentant" slave owner and found him a pretty young wife. This is the true scenario of you go by the adage "Actions speak louder than words".

Natalie has a new post up. http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blog ... eting.html

[libriatrix]

Natalie writes about a conversation in Doug's office when she was 19:

After some chit-chat, he asked about my relationships and mentioned that he'd spoken with my mom and said she'd made him aware that I was dating someone from the University. I said yes, that was true. Then it got weird. He asked me if I was sexually active with the guy I was dating. The question caught me off guard - in light of everything I had been through and the lack of support I had received from the church, I didn't see how the details of my current relationship could possibly be any of his business. I hesitated to answer, so he asked again, "Are you sexually active with your boyfriend? Do you have intercourse? Oral sex? What have you done sexually with him?"

Humiliated, I looked at the ground. "Yeah...we're sexually active."

"How often?" He pressed.

"I dunno. Sometimes."

..... Shades of Gothard?

[Peas n carrots]

I'd like to take a moment from the horrors of the situation to point out how damn pretentious the whole "Christ Church," "Greyfriars," and the other co-opting of Scottish places and terminology is. It's pretty laughable using these names as a way to himself and the institution up as respectable without earning the respect. Hmph