Apostolic Clerk Disobeys SCOTUS, Denies Gay Marriage License

[DarkAnts]

Doesn't "in season" mean ready to mate? :lol:

Stupid autocorrect, I hope she never mates with any other state official.

[VelociRapture]

Velocirapture - If she was part of a general audience, as I suspect, then I very much doubt that either Pope Francis or his advisers had a clue who she was, or if they did, that she was there - after all, she thinks the Pope is the Antichrist; why would he want to meet her? Congrats to whoever is orchestrating her PR, though - this was a home run!

The fact that they haven't released details and they tried to keep the meeting quiet speaks volumes to me. Maybe they had their reasons for keeping it quiet that are harmless, but I have such little faith in the Vatican that I find that difficult to believe - perhaps thats unfair, but in my opinion they haven't proven themselves to be trust worthy.

[Anonymousguest]

Doesn't "in season" mean ready to mate? :lol:

Or to be hunted, like "deer season", which works too!

[DarkAnts]

Or to be hunted, like "deer season", which works too!

You two are fantastic! I love you both! But you owe me a new keyboard.

[December]

In the UK, posts such as Kim's are not elected, but rather minor local government civil service jobs. So, in the UK,the answer is very easy - we sack her for refusing to conform to her job description.

I truly do not understand why she can not be at least suspended without pay from her job, when she refuses to fulfill SCOTUS mandated duties. That she can refuse to do her job within the confines of the law of the United States, and continue to receive a salary is just wrong! Especially since I am now reading that her salary is very much at the high end for salaries in her state....Can I be a dogcatcher and then refuse to accept euthanasia, even if that were a condition of my job? When we take a job, appointed or elected, we must accept the duties of that job - or resign. As dogcatcher, if my strays were to be euthanised, I'd resign....so, Mrs Registrar, County Clerk, or whatever, how do you justify taking money from your neighbours who pay your salary, and refusing to fulfil your role?

(And by the way some of those neighbours who pay those wages are(horror)gay. Would you wish that their contributions to your salary be withheld, as you refuse them services?)

She hasn't been sacked because the legislature's not in session and since it's elected that's the only way to get her out apparently. I live in the US and the whole thing baffles me, too. All she is being asked to do is issue a civil marriage license -- just a government document, no more religiously affiliated than a tax return. She's not being asked to take them into her church and conduct a religious ceremony where she asks God to bless their union, or something. Ironically, when I got married at a courthouse by a judge, he decided to quote directly from Corinthians during the allegedly civil, secular ceremony and tell us it was from a "good book" that we should read if we haven't yet...

Many people in the US don't view or understand civil marriage as something distinct from religious/spiritual marriage, though. I know some people who were vehemently opposed to equal marriage, until I explained to them it didn't mean that (for instance) their Roman Catholic parish priest would be legally compelled to conduct a religious marriage ceremony for a homosexual couple. It just meant that the state would recognize M-M and F-F unions on the same legal standing as M-F unions. So I think part of the uproar over equal marriage is just because people have really different ideas of what legal marriage means in this country.

[browncoatslytherin]

The fact that they haven't released details and they tried to keep the meeting quiet speaks volumes to me. Maybe they had their reasons for keeping it quiet that are harmless, but I have such little faith in the Vatican that I find that difficult to believe - perhaps thats unfair, but in my opinion they haven't proven themselves to be trust worthy.

the pope met A LOT of people during his visit. honestly, there's probably not much to tell and kim is simply using this to boost her cred and perceived importance.

i disagree with pope francis over quite a few things and find the vatican quite icky myself. but knowing kim davis (and especially her ilk) i wouldn't doubt she's blowing the whole thing out of proportion.

i still refer to the video i posted with m. bison standing in for the pope and kim davis being chun-li. :P if only because only the late, great raul julia is the motherfucking BOSS.

edited for riffle.

[CallmeChaCha]

Many people in the US don't view or understand civil marriage as something distinct from religious/spiritual marriage, though.

I wonder if that's her problem (one of many). When I got married A LOT of family kept asking my husband and I when we were "really" getting married because we didn't get married at church. I was so confused when people were asking me this. Like, what? :? Apparently, a lot of people think a church wedding is the only legitimate way to get married. :snooty:

[browncoatslytherin]

I wonder if that's her problem (one of many). When I got married A LOT of family kept asking my husband and I when we were "really" getting married because we didn't get married at church. I was so confused when people were asking me this. Like, what? :? Apparently, a lot of people think a church wedding is the only legitimate way to get married. :snooty:

i don't like church enough to go to it on even a semi-regular basis, so i ain't gettin married in one! i'm getting married in a comic book shop. :P

[CallmeChaCha]

i don't like church enough to go to it on even a semi-regular basis, so i ain't gettin married in one! i'm getting married in a comic book shop. :P

That's awesome!!! Beware, it's not a "real" wedding. :lol: (That comment is so stupid, I rolled my eyes at myself lol)

I don't even go to church unless necessary (weddings, baptisms, funerals, etc.) and if I do go, I joke about the demons coming out (it sounds funnier in Spanish, I'm a terrible translator).

[DarkAnts]

I wonder if that's her problem (one of many). When I got married A LOT of family kept asking my husband and I when we were "really" getting married because we didn't get married at church. I was so confused when people were asking me this. Like, what? :? Apparently, a lot of people think a church wedding is the only legitimate way to get married. :snooty:

They do not understand. My gay friends are opposed to getting civil unions unless all licenses say civil unions because they want to be treated equally in the eye of the law. I have a friend who is against gay marriage but knows there is a difference between civil marriages and religious marriages. She understands the difference between her religious marriage and her civil marriage. She has not meet my other friends for obvious reasons.

[Tikobaby]

My partner of over 23 years and I were finally able to marry in our state this year. We got the license, and 3 days later we went to the courthouse in our town and were married by the deputy clerk in less than 5 minutes. Our civil marriage is as legal as one held in a church and the state employees involved were all polite and helpful, as we expected them to be, and that day was amazing! :)

[doggie]

Sonia it ok to steal money from your job? She is not working so she is a theif

[church_of_dog]

the late, great raul julia is the motherfucking BOSS.

I can't say that I met him because we weren't actually introduced, but he came into the place where I worked many years ago -- it was a non-profit and he was a supporter and involved in some project with them. I knew he was coming in and was all excited, and then got thrown for a loop when the elevator door opened and he walked in and he was BLOND. :pink-shock:

Only later did I understand that was for a movie role -- he was in the middle of making Moon Over Parador... :lol:

RIP Raul, we miss you!

[browncoatslytherin]

They do not understand. My gay friends are opposed to getting civil unions unless all licenses say civil unions because they want to be treated equally in the eye of the law. I have a friend who is against gay marriage but knows there is a difference between civil marriages and religious marriages. She understands the difference between her religious marriage and her civil marriage. She has not meet my other friends for obvious reasons.

i know this is different in the uk and other places, but in america a civil union is not the same thing as a marriage. a civil union is recognized at the state level only, not at the federal level, which means no tax benefits, no social security stuff from the spouse (forgetting words here, cuz pregnant. it is seriously right at my fingertips!), nothing like that. it's kinda like that "separate but equal" bullshit...separate and not really equal.

just in case any non-americans weren't familiar (i wasn't until i looked it up myself last month!).

[RosyDaisy]

It is my personal belief that a civil marriage and a spiritual marriage are one and the same in the eyes of God. Wedding vows mean something. That's just my personal belief. Others may have a different point of view, and I respect that. To each his/her own.

[formergothardite]

I haven't finished reading the whole thread, but I just wanted to make a few comments...can't stay quiet on this. First, as a Catholic, when I heard the pope possibly met with her I groaned. This woman is giving Christianity a bad name. People tend to paint a whole group with the same brush--very embarrassing. While I like Pope Francis, he should have stayed out of this.

That said, I will confess that I'm not crazy about Gay marriage---but I also figure it's not my place to judge. I have friends that are gay and are married, and they are wonderful people. It's none of my business--To each his own. I do believe that Davis needs to resign. Regardless of my feelings on the matter, SCOTUS has said yes, it's legal, so shut up and do your job or leave. :doh:

Hope this made sense. She really really gives conservatives a bad name. Makes me mad. Actually, ALL fundies give us a bad name. :angry-banghead:

I'm not sure she is the one giving conservatives a bad name, most have done a good enough job on that without her. According to a pew report only 30% of conservatives are in favor of gay marriage. Wanting to deny an entire group of people equality is what helps give conservatives a bad name. Kim is the least of their problems.

[quiversR4hunting]

i don't like church enough to go to it on even a semi-regular basis, so i ain't gettin married in one! i'm getting married in a comic book shop. :P

I am a church goer and I don't understand people like CallmeChaCha's family.

I would rather go to a wedding of two people that are not church goers - not religious at all - in a non-church setting (barn, beach, hotel, backyard, banquet center, etc). For me, if you aren't religious then why do you need a church? You don't and it doesn't make it less of a marriage. For me, I'm an active, participating Catholic I think it would have been weird for me notto get married in a Catholic church. Brownscoatslytherin I would support your comic book shop wedding because you are being true to your convictions- same with CallmeChaCha- wherever she got married.

I don't know why it bothers people that some people aren't religious. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't make them a bad human or such. And frankly, it's not my business what others believe as long as they allow me to believe in my faith. Kim Davis is infringing on others rights, that is the bottom line and that's the difference. I really hope the KY legislature fires her.

[quiversR4hunting]

Update! As we suspected- Kim was one of "several dozen" invited by the Vatican ambassador to see Francis.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-did-not-unco ... 06715.html

Makes me happy! She didn't have a real audience with the pope.

From the article

"The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature (Vatican embassy) was with one of his former students and his family," the statement said.

[VelociRapture]

Update! As we suspected- Kim was one of "several dozen" invited by the Vatican ambassador to see Francis.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-did-not-unco ... 06715.html

Makes me happy! She didn't have a real audience with the pope.

From the article

Its nice to see the Vatican clarify this matter a bit. It seems I was a bit unfair to him and his staff earlier - so, apologies Pope Frank.

I'm not giving Francis or the Vatican a full pass though - he still opposes marriage equality, still opposes a woman's right to have an abortion, and he still hasn't taken any real steps in regards to the child sexual abuse scandals. The first two are a bit understandable as its the Church's official position and I am unsure what he could really do about those things - the third is indefensible for any Pope though. He has done some wonderful work on behalf of the poor and less fortunate in the world and I give him full credit for that - especially for housing a refugee family in the Vatican as they go through the immigration process. I do feel he needs to turn a serious eye towards the sexual abuse of children by Priests and do more than just set up a Council to allegedly investigate claims.

(Still, I am glad to see them clarify their side of the meeting.)

[MatthewDuggar]

For me, if you aren't religious then why do you need a church? You don't and it doesn't make it less of a marriage. For me, I'm an active, participating Catholic I think it would have been weird for me notto get married in a Catholic church.

Also, there can be issues with mixed-faith marriages. My sister is Catholic and by brother-in-law is Jewish. The got married outdoors by a judge. Prior to the wedding, I was concerned about how my father felt about it. Turns out he had no issues and neither did my BIL's family. It was definitely a formal affair, but everyone seemed to love not having to sit in a long "service". The entire "ceremony" was 10 minutes.

[MatthewDuggar]

Another article saying the Vatican was/is not endorsing Davis:

cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/kim-davis-pope/index.html

[doggie]

So this christian who thinks she has the right to judge others rights is a liar twice caught cheats the government out of wages breaks the law breaks court orders is the one who should be deciding what others should do? this is not even including hew past of course.

[Tdoc72]

Update! As we suspected- Kim was one of "several dozen" invited by the Vatican ambassador to see Francis.

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-did-not-unco ... 06715.html

Makes me happy! She didn't have a real audience with the pope.

From the article

And that former student is gay & was there with his partner of 19 years.

I just freakin' love that the Vatican came out (ha!) and clarified all of this.

[nastyhobbitses]

And that former student is gay & was there with his partner of 19 years.

I just freakin' love that the Vatican came out (ha!) and clarified all of this.

And now Kim looks like one of those lovestruck teenage girls who claim that some boy from One Direction is her boyfriend because he made eye contact with her section of the crowd at a concert.

[Eighth-of-eleven]

I find this type of position to be reasonable. You don't have to fully understand - but you do need to show a basic level of respect for other human beings. Thank you for keeping an open-mind and for being a good model of what Christianity should be (you know, the whole loving other people thing.)

It is times like this that make me incredibly grateful that I spiritually left that faith when I was 13. To say I am disgusted that this meeting took place - all while Francis was speaking about loving your fellow humans and not pushing the anti-marriage equality stuff much more - is an absolute understatement. Francis appears to be a far better politician than anyone expected; I'm assuming his gift for public relations is why he was elected in the first place.

I want nothing more to do with this Church - this is just one insult too many to people I know and love. Anyone know how I can formally have my name removed from Church records?[/quote

@ Velocirapture:

"Anyone know how I can formally have my name removed from church records"

Interestngly enough, ex-rc here, one of my sisters actually did that about 35 years ago. She was so disgusted with the rc church she wrote a letter to the local diocese and proceeded from there. It took a few months but she got herself formally ex-catholicised! I didn't pay that much attention to the actual details... I'll have to ask her.