Arkansas Midwife Loses License - Mother Speaks Out Merged

[Four is Enough]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

The fact that Jill witnessed all of this and "seemed" to disagree (I say seemed, but to be honest, I don't think Jill is even capable of thinking critically enough here to manage an original thought. She probably just nodded along with someone else) makes her own home birth even worse. 

I can see Jill questioning it only in the context of a new person who still thinks that perhaps someone with more experience or resources can aid in this situation. I believe VG is WAAY past the notion that there is more to learn, that there is more to know about safeguarding those laboring under her care, that perhaps she doesn't know it all.. The one thing that she never seems to say is that (and yes, I agree that labor is  for the most part natural and will progress naturally) SOMETIMES, just SOMETIMES, intervention is needed, and if it's not provided, things can go very, very wrong. The best physician in the world sometimes needs assistance. VG apparently doesn't agree that SHE ever needs assistance.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

The fact that Jill witnessed all of this and "seemed" to disagree (I say seemed, but to be honest, I don't think Jill is even capable of thinking critically enough here to manage an original thought. She probably just nodded along with someone else) makes her own home birth even worse. 

I wasn't following the Duggars back when Jill had her baby.  (I lost interest during the first season and didn't really pay attention until Joshgate 1.)  But I want to point out that pregnant women and women in labor sometimes act with stupidly because of hormones.  (For example, shortly before I realized I was going into labor, I got into an embarrassing and irrational  argument with someone whose good opinion I wanted.)

So Jill's bad call on her own pregnancy could be no more than that she wasn't thinking clearly. Her midwife or parents or Derick should have overruled her.  It is not all on her, and it does not necessarily mean that she wouldn't make the right call if she were the midwife for someone else.  Just saying....  

1 hour ago, socalrules said:

Even if Jill and the other trainees disagreed, I wouldn't let them off the hook. If you think someone's life is in danger, you pick up the phone and call 911. There is no real downside if you were wrong. The problem is that Jill and the other trainees, along with everyone else there, seemed to only know how to take orders, not how to lead. Jill was only taught to follow authority, not assess a situation on her own and make a rational decision. Blind followers should not be in a position where life and death decisions need to be made.

That is very true.

[Coconut Flan]

Venessa is one of those people who cause other people to have to write rules and then she doesn't believe that they apply to her.  The state of Arkansas had already put into effect what she was to do and she deliberately didn't follow it.  Arrogance or stupidity or both?

[calimojo]

@EmCatlyn I agree that to some extent Jill's judgment might have been impaired by the simple fact that she was the actual "Patient" and not the caregiver.  As any nurse can tell you,  we respond differently when it is happening to us, or to our close family/loved ones.  It is humanly impossible to be objective in that situation.

 

Having taught childbirth education classes back when I worked OB years ago,  I stressed this fact to my students.  But the point is not that mom can't make any decisions during that time, the point is that mom and her birth partners need to be very well educated on both the natural process of birth, and the types of common complications that can occur.  Discussion and Education on these things in advance, either through a good child birth Ed class, or during prenatal visits, should help the mom and her support person, be it husband, baby Daddy, or friend, how they want to handle things when the veer off path from normal, and what kinds of things constitute a serious enough threat that all bets are off in terms of a birth plan, home delivery etc.

 

If people are well educated,  then the dad or birth partner can then take on the role as advocate,  when the mom gets to the point where making decisions might be overwhelming to her during intense stages of labor.  Again,  this doesn't mean that the dad/ birth partner is in charge, just that they know in advance, between them what the real goals are and plans, and that the laboring mom, acknowledges that at some point, she may need her birth partner's guidance.  That is how partnership works.   

[ClaraOswin]

Didn't Jill end up not even calling her actual midwife when she was in labor? Even if she wasn't thinking rationally, someone else - Derick, her mom, her friend - should have been making better decisions.

[choralcrusader8613]

Didn't Jill end up not even calling her actual midwife when she was in labor? Even if she wasn't thinking rationally, someone else - Derick, her mom, her friend - should have been making better decisions.

I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure her midwives were there. I may check the ep later. But I agree that the decisions made during Jill's labor until she got to the hospital were pretty foolish at best.

[Casserole]

4 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure her midwives were there. I may check the ep later. But I agree that the decisions made during Jill's labor until she got to the hospital were pretty foolish at best.

 

I recall reading that her friend who was going to assist her midwife was in attendance, but she never called her midwife to say she was in labor so she was not there. I want to say I read that in the Butterfly Midwife group thread. but the search bar is failing me now. I'll keep looking.. 

[ClaraOswin]

I guess maybe it was a rumor about Joy Coonfield not being there when Jill was in labor. I'll have to watch the episode again. I know JC and Debbie Quiery (sp?) visit the house before she goes into labor. I can't remember who we see during the labor-at-home scenes.

 

Okay...I pulled up the episode and skipped ahead to labor-at-home. Michelle, Jana, and Rachel (friend of Jill/student midwife) show up around the 24 hour mark. Then we can see Debbie Query there too. I think she was an apprentice of Joy Coonfield at the time. All the same people are seen at the hospital as well. No sign of Joy Coonfield, who was the only one with real* midwife credentials. 

*"Real" to these people. 

[2manyKidzzz]

8 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

I guess maybe it was a rumor about Joy Coonfield not being there when Jill was in labor. I'll have to watch the episode again. I know JC and Debbie Quiery (sp?) visit the house before she goes into labor. I can't remember who we see during the labor-at-home scenes.

 

Okay...I pulled up the episode and skipped ahead to labor-at-home. Michelle, Jana, and Rachel (friend of Jill/student midwife) show up around the 24 hour mark. Then we can see Debbie Query there too. I think she was an apprentice of Joy Coonfield at the time. All the same people are seen at the hospital as well. No sign of Joy Coonfield, who was the only one with real* midwife credentials. 

*"Real" to these people. 

This situation, we well as Jessa's, are really heartbreaking in that they made it through this time, but what about the future? All too ridiculous. Godbobbers can afford heath care and I'm sure Derrick had it at Walmart. Insane to me. 

[ClaraOswin]

I have a friend who has had home births and they were good experiences. It's not my cup of tea, that's for sure. But I think it CAN be done right. One pretty important thing is proper prenatal care....which should include the very important 20-week anatomy scan. During this scan, many problems can be seen. Some of these problems that could show up would tell a person if they are not a good candidate for a home birth. Would that have helped Jessa or Jill? No. But it could help others.

And obviously the GBS test is important. As is receiving antibiotics during labor.

I also think a person should live VERY near a hospital or birthing center. I'm not sure how close the Duggars are to one.

And one would also need a smart birthing team. Someone that will know when transfer is needed. Clearly Jill's "team" didn't. She got lucky, IMO.

[Arete]

I don't think homebirth can be done safely in the United States.  Nurse midwives will not attend them.  The CPMs that will do not have legitimate or ongoing medical training.

[Shadoewolf]

Without knowing the exact address of Jessa's place, I can't tell you the actual driving time. But the flash of the Washington Regional Hospital logo they showed is actually the location in Fayetteville, a good...oh 15 minutes or so away.  There's a Washington Regional birth center in Springdale but by that point Jessa wouldn't have gone there and they don't handle complications.

Anyone with training who knowingly stands by when something goes wrong should be held just as responsible. (As someone who is trained in phlebotomy, I stepped in when someone tried to draw on a 90 degree angle on my husband)  If Jill knew it was bad and didn't call for help then shame on her. Jill's "friends" or whoever was overseeing her birth should have stepped in and got her legit medical care a lot earlier than they did. Problem is in states like AR, there's little oversight and little consequence until something goes horribly wrong.

[Casserole]

In my short time on this forum, I have learned a lot with all of your posts and snarking and have decided how I would want my birth plan to be (if I ever had spawns.) Thanks FJ 

[downtherabbithole]

1 hour ago, Arete said:

I don't think homebirth can be done safely in the United States.  Nurse midwives will not attend them.  The CPMs that will do not have legitimate or ongoing medical training.

I do not agree with this. There are CNM that will attend home births near me. We actually have a CNM practice that goes hand and hand with a MD group and one of the local hospitals. I know many people who have had safe home births. 

[Arete]

2 minutes ago, downtherabbithole said:

I do not agree with this. There are CNM that will attend home births near me. We actually have a CNM practice that goes hand and hand with a MD group and one of the local hospitals. I know many people who have had safe home births. 

You're an exception, not the rule.  CNMs cannot get malpractice insurance in most states if they attend home births.

[Snarkylark]

1 hour ago, Arete said:

I don't think homebirth can be done safely in the United States.  Nurse midwives will not attend them.  The CPMs that will do not have legitimate or ongoing medical training.

I totally agree! Even if you are literally across the street from the hospital, in an emergency situation, mere seconds can mean the difference between a successful delivery and a bad outcome. By the time one gets to the ED or L&D and medical professionals have gotten report and have time to accurately assess mom and baby and decide on a plan, it could be too late. Add to that the time to call rescue and transport if you do not happen to be across the street from a hospital. Too risky, IMO. It is not worth whatever the cost savings might be to risk my or my child's life. There are birth centers staffed by CPMs that will allow mom and baby to go home within a few hours of birth if all has gone well. That sounds like a great compromise. Yes, birth is natural and mostly safe. But also has the potential for major problems and loss of life. When I had my third child I had some bleeding after birth. All it took was a quick shot of pitocin and a potential crisis was averted, within seconds, at the bedside. Find a dr or midwife you can trust through word of mouth, interviews, and talk to the actual nurses where you will deliver. 

[ClaraOswin]

I definitely agree that a home birth in the U.S. will likely never be as safe as birth in a hospital. At least from my perspective. What I meant by "done right" is that for a home birth, everything preventative and whatnot that CAN be done, IS done. None of this skipping proper prenatal care or anatomy scans or GBS screening.

Would I ever feel comfortable with a home birth? No. But I can understand why someone else might want one.

[Grace]

5 hours ago, Shadoewolf said:

Without knowing the exact address of Jessa's place, I can't tell you the actual driving time. But the flash of the Washington Regional Hospital logo they showed is actually the location in Fayetteville, a good...oh 15 minutes or so away.  There's a Washington Regional birth center in Springdale but by that point Jessa wouldn't have gone there and they don't handle complications.

 

Washington Regional is 1 exit up the highway , maybe 2, depending on which route you take from Jessa's house, which you can see from the hwy. It would take maybe 5 minutes to get there unless there was a lot of traffic. The birth center is in Rogers, not Springdale and is affiliated with Mercy, not Washington Regional. 

[Snarkylark]

And 5 minutes is enough time for a brain dead child:(

[Trynn]

I totally agree! Even if you are literally across the street from the hospital, in an emergency situation, mere seconds can mean the difference between a successful delivery and a bad outcome. By the time one gets to the ED or L&D and medical professionals have gotten report and have time to accurately assess mom and baby and decide on a plan, it could be too late. Add to that the time to call rescue and transport if you do not happen to be across the street from a hospital. Too risky, IMO. It is not worth whatever the cost savings might be to risk my or my child's life. There are birth centers staffed by CPMs that will allow mom and baby to go home within a few hours of birth if all has gone well. That sounds like a great compromise. Yes, birth is natural and mostly safe. But also has the potential for major problems and loss of life. When I had my third child I had some bleeding after birth. All it took was a quick shot of pitocin and a potential crisis was averted, within seconds, at the bedside. Find a dr or midwife you can trust through word of mouth, interviews, and talk to the actual nurses where you will deliver. 

Same. I don't really get why home births are trendy.

Also, I just don't like living more than 15 minutes away from the nearest hospital.

I'm not having kids anytime soon, this is just a general thing.

[Shadoewolf]

8 hours ago, Grace said:

Washington Regional is 1 exit up the highway , maybe 2, depending on which route you take from Jessa's house, which you can see from the hwy. It would take maybe 5 minutes to get there unless there was a lot of traffic. The birth center is in Rogers, not Springdale and is affiliated with Mercy, not Washington Regional. 

Which explains why I recognized the Once Upon a Child, (was a frequent customer there) etc.  I get the impression the Seewalds are closer to Fayetteville than anything.

I went off of Google, one birth center said it was Washington Memorial affiliated. But I'm going on limited info.  Most midwives who will attend a homebirth do require you to be within so many miles/minutes from a major hospital so it looks like Jessa fit the bill. Not that it appears she had decent midwife care but....

[Four is Enough]

6 hours ago, Trynn said:

Same. I don't really get why home births are trendy.

 

I wouldn't say they're "trendy"... My father and mother were both born at home.. and so were their siblings. That was circa 1929, but most births were done at home until doctors got hold of it for a revenue source..

[SilverBeach]

10 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

 

Would I ever feel comfortable with a home birth? No. But I can understand why someone else might want one.

I really don't understand why anyone would want to give birth at home. Even with an uncomplicated vaginal delivery, after the baby, there is the afterbirth. How is it disposed of? Is there a scale available to weigh the baby? Plus, just mess. I was happy to avail myself of a hospital delivery and modern medical care that has drastically reduced infant and maternal mortality, even though infant mortality remains too high in the US. I gave birth before there were the nice home-like birthing suites in hospitals like there are now, and I still wouldn't change a thing, but I'm not a very crunchy person. 

To each their own, I suppose. But reading the tragic link about baby Wren and his preventable GBS death really underscored the very real risks of home birthing.

And delivering my baby into a toilet, no words.

I am speaking for myself only, YMMV and probably does and that is OK!

[ClaraOswin]

Well, like I said...I'd never do it. For basically the same reasons you've stated.

But I also know that not everyone thinks like me. A lot of people don't mind the mess. Some have a lot of fear about hospitals. Some are comfortable without doctors nearby (I am the opposite.) It's easy to weigh a baby at home. (I would be more worried about the baby's health than weight.)

I would hope these home birth women would take their baby to a hospital sooner rather than later. Things like the pulse ox screening are pretty important. I wonder how long they wait before going in.

[Timetostoplurking]

Hospital birth for me!!  All 3 of them.  I would do that again in a heartbeat.  The nurses were wonderful, the doctors awesome, my hubs?!?!  Well, he managed to not pass out. Lol.    The rooms were comfortable and hubs spent the night with me and the new baby.  Even the food was pretty good.  For me, my birth didn't have to be extra special, or super personal.  It wasn't a test of my pain tolerance or stamina.  I just had to feel safe and comfortable.  I just wanted an average, low stress, run-of-the-mill birth.  That's what I got!!